CE, UL, ETL, etc.

[JackOfDiamonds]

At my job we are required that all the power strips or anything else we buy has to be UL listed.

When I go to the store, I see about 2/3 of the devices aren't UL listed, and when I find the item that's UL listed, it's one of the more expensive ones.

Somehow I think that if they sell them in retail stores, they must not be dangerous, but clearly my work doesn't agree....

I also learned there are other standards bodies like ETL and CSA. What makes those different from UL?

 

[PCustoms]

At my job we are required that all the power strips or anything else we buy has to be UL listed.

When I go to the store, I see about 2/3 of the devices aren't UL listed, and when I find the item that's UL listed, it's one of the more expensive ones.

Somehow I think that if they sell them in retail stores, they must not be dangerous, but clearly my work doesn't agree....

I also learned there are other standards bodies like ETL and CSA. What makes those different from UL?

What electrical item are you finding at the store that isn't listed?

 

[walta]

Different countries have similar but different rules.

The presents of the UL or other label on a product may not be what it seems as unauthorized use of the label on non-conforming products is common.



Walta

 

[mike93lx]

I bet this requirement is coming from your insurance company. Might be worth asking EH&S for more detail

 

[larry_g]

Don't forget that there are other NRTL's out there, UL is just one of them. Many things sold are not tested and it is up to you to take the risk. Your company is not willing to risk untested items in the plant or shop. What you think is immaterial.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[cannuck]

UL, ULC, ETL and CSA are private testing, certification and inspection companies that will test pretty much anything to comply with government and/or industry standards. I assume the EU has a similar but assume much more bureaucratic system.

 

[Norcal]

CE has no standing in the US, UL, CSA, & ETL, are NTRL's, Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories, a full list can be found here. https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/current-list-of-nrtls

 

[ratflinger]

When I worked for a medical OEM we used ETL & CSA for all of our testing. We sold world-wide.

 

[sparky 1971]

I bet that when they say UL listed, they don't mean it has to be UL and UL only. Listed by any NRTL would probably do, but this might be one of the occasions where it's going to be easier to ask permission over forgiveness.

 

[whateg01]

Are you spending your own money to buy these appliances? If not, why does it matter to you whether it costs more to buy the item that work specified? Or are you just curious?

As far as the price difference, it costs money to have items tested and the manufacturer is probably spending money in the form of labor and record keeping to maintain the product and its materials so that it stays compliant

 

[rharman]

I can't remember which but one of them I looked up tests to UL standards but does not design their own tests.

 

[Cruzan80]

Somehow I think that if they sell them in retail stores, they must not be dangerous, but clearly my work doesn't agree....

Given some of the other comments made in electrical threads by you, I would agree with your work.

Not dangerous is relative...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

At my job we are required that all the power strips or anything else we buy has to be UL listed.

thats an odd requirement. are you sure its not any NRTL? why UL specifically?

When I go to the store, I see about 2/3 of the devices aren't UL listed, and when I find the item that's UL listed, it's one of the more expensive ones.

because UL is not the only NRTL

Somehow I think that if they sell them in retail stores, they must not be dangerous, but clearly my work doesn't agree....

I also learned there are other standards bodies like ETL and CSA. What makes those different from UL?

your work has no clue what theyre talking about

 

[PCustoms]

Here's a decent, simple explanation

ETL vs. UL Electrical Certifications: What's the Difference? – Docking Drawer

At Docking Drawer, we're proud to be the market leader of in-drawer electrical outlets. Our commitment to charging and powering today's connected lifestyle is backed by rigorous safety standards. Offering a full array of solutions, all outlets are electrically certified by a Nationally...

dockingdrawer.com

 

[Metal-Marc]

At my job we are required that all the power strips or anything else we buy has to be UL listed.

What kind of company are you working for? Sending rockets to the moon? Plucking chickens and making chicken nuggets?

 

[PCustoms]

What kind of company are you working for? Sending rockets to the moon? Plucking chickens and making chicken nuggets?

Any reputable mfg company will require this...

 

[markhm]

There is a little confusion here. There are 2 issues being discussed: Standards and Certifications. UL writes the Standards that are applied to items. Then UL or other NRTL's like ETL will Certify for a manufacturer that an item meets the Standard. When an item is Certified that it meets the Standard, the manufacturer is allowed to label it with a label bearing the imprint of the Certification lab. An item with a UL or ETL (or other NRTL) is considered equivalent and shows that the item meets the appropriate UL Standard.

 

[LOW1]

Don’t building codes require UL or similar certification?

 

[dscheidt]

Don’t building codes require UL or similar certification?

The NEC has a bunch of provisions that require 'listed' equipment, or let you do something different if you use a listed component. (the one that pops in my head are nail plates to protect wires too close to the surface of a stud. Code says they have to be so thick, but allows listed ones, which are all quite a bit thinner. ) A pretty recent change (2017?) requires all appliances operating at >50v to be listed.

 

[rlitman]

The NEC has a bunch of provisions that require 'listed' equipment, or let you do something different if you use a listed component. (the one that pops in my head are nail plates to protect wires too close to the surface of a stud. Code says they have to be so thick, but allows listed ones, which are all quite a bit thinner. ) A pretty recent change (2017?) requires all appliances operating at >50v to be listed.

Like ground rods. A 1/2" diameter one has to be listed and stamped, but a 5/8" diameter one doesn't (though often is).

When it comes to electrical safety, UL creates the standards for testing that approved NRTLs (including UL) have to follow. But UL doesn't set ALL the standards for NRTLs, because not everything is about electricity. I deal a bunch with ANSI and FM standards too.

At my job we are required that all the power strips or anything else we buy has to be UL listed.

When I go to the store, I see about 2/3 of the devices aren't UL listed, and when I find the item that's UL listed, it's one of the more expensive ones.

Somehow I think that if they sell them in retail stores, they must not be dangerous, but clearly my work doesn't agree....

I also learned there are other standards bodies like ETL and CSA. What makes those different from UL?

As pointed out above, UL is not the only Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory. ALL NRTLs have the same ability to list equipment they have tested. Insisting on UL alone is misguided. But navigating what is and what is not a currently recognized NRTL from the OSHA link above may be above the heads of some management. Even so, the list isn't that long, because you wouldn't expect to find a listing from NSF or IAMPO on a power strip (though UL does compete with these two labs in their own respective spaces). For your purposes, ETL and CSA are accepted just the same as UL.

Another thing to consider is counterfeiting. There was so big an issue with counterfeit UL markings on goods coming from China, that UL started a requirement on all Chinese COO goods to have holographic UL seals on them (a requirement not applied to other COOs). Also, simply stating UL doesn't really mean much. You would need to verify that the specific UL marking is relevant to the product bearing the mark. UL has a LOT of marks just in play in North America: https://markshub.ul.com/north-america-geography

As for retail stores selling products without a listing... It happens. I'd assume it opens the store up to some liability, which is why you're less likely to find such **** in a large chain (stay away from local dollar store electronics and contraceptives), but we also know that the quality control chain in something like a Walmart is far from unimpeachable. Online stores like Amazon totally dodge the liability by claiming they're a marketplace, and pass it onto countless small-time retailers that are often overseas.

 

[Norcal]

Codes cannot require UL listed equipment, if they did the lawsuits would be stacking up, so they require products listed by a NRTL, like UL, CSA, ETL.

 

[Reborn]

Even for my home, I only buy certified items. Peace of mind plus extra 'safety' from an insurance claim perspective. Worth the few extra bucks.

 

[Steve_P]

I don't know how it is today, but 20+ years ago anything going into the DOE plant that I did engineering and design work for had to be UL listed. It's possible that they would've allowed another approval, I can't remember, but I do know that no approval meant that you could not use that device, even if it was the only one available; I went thru this exact scenario with them.

 

[man-a-fre]

I seen a video somewhere on youtube that showed some of the smart meters are not ul listed.

 

[micromind]

What electrical item are you finding at the store that isn't listed?

In the RV section, no 30 to 15 amp or 50 to 30 amp adapter could ever be listed.

 

[PCustoms]

In the RV section, no 30 to 15 amp or 50 to 30 amp adapted could ever be listed.

I bet OP is using lots of those at work

 

[DrinkMan]

Disclaimer: This may be old information as it occurred over a decade ago and perhaps things have changed.

I used to be responsible for our equipment specifications. Historically, we had required UL listings. I was asked by our suppliers if they could use ETL tested to those same standards to save development time. It seemed reasonable to me as ETL was a recognized lab. But, being "old and set in my ways", I was reluctant to change our requirements that had stood long before my tenure so I asked for a test. Our regulatory consultant had told me that he preferred UL from a safety standpoint. But I was wanting the speed of ETL testing to get to market. So, we sent some equipment to both. Yes, ETL was much faster and cheaper and we got their mark and had passed. Then the UL report arrived (later and more expensive) - we had failed and they had a long list of issues to correct. Some seemed very arbitrary and could be questioned (which we did, and they did back off on those) but there were a few issues that our EE team agreed seemed like good ideas that we should correct (but those issues were not critical for safety in their opinion - and our safety/regulatory consultant agreed). We did the corrections.

After reading the two reports, my conclusion was that ETL was capable of giving us good safety assurances but UL dug deeper and found more potential issues. (yes, they were both reported against the same standards). So, we changed our specifications that originally had stated that we could not field test without UL to allow ETL for field testing but UL for production (that took care of the longer timeline for UL, our legal team and I felt that the costs were worth paying twice). Again, Disclaimer: this was a while ago and things may have (probably have) changed.

When shopping for my home, if I am comparing 2 items (like a surge protector or power strip) and one is UL and the other ETL, I tend to buy the UL because of my experiences.

 

[rharman]

I always look for UL or ETL on things. The big question, particularly for Amazon products, is how legit that is.

I've started to look them up in ULPROSPECTOR.

 

[BillK]

Are you spending your own money to buy these appliances? If not, why does it matter to you whether it costs more to buy the item that work specified?

Personally I am glad to see an employee looking out for the wallet that pays him

 

[alfredeneuman]

There's a big difference between UL listed and certified.
Listed equipment products can be used as is, on it's own
Certified equipment can only be used as a part of listed equipment.

 

[billconner]

Just fyi NFPA definition of listed and labeled. I think these are NEC but ICC and other NFPA standards and codes are similar.

Listed: Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.

Labeled. Equipment or materials to which has been attached a label, symbol, or other identifying mark of an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with product evaluation, that maintains periodic inspection of production of labeled equipment or materials, and by whose labeling the manufacturer indicates compliance with appropriate standards or performance in a specified manner.

38 years in code and standard development and don't recall equipment or materials being certified. Sometimes a person doing the work is required to be certified like a welder.

 

[dscheidt]

38 years in code and standard development and don't recall equipment or materials being certified. Sometimes a person doing the work is required to be certified like a welder.

UL has three categories -- listed, recognized, and classified. Listed is "this product has been tested to standard whatever". recognized is for things used as a component in listed products (like wire, or sub components like power supplies) and can be used without requiring specific testing of it. Classified are things that meet the standard in a specific set of circumstances; one relevant use is for things like replacement circuit breakers made by a third party for use in a panel. Eaton makes a line of classified breakers that are classified for use in a number of different panels, which makes stocking replacements easier for service work.

 

[billconner]

Classified not used in building codes much I know of. And I'm more doors and hardware than electrical. (Though very familiar with UL 1008 and 924!)

 

[cannuck]

Disclaimer: This may be old information as it occurred over a decade ago and perhaps things have changed.

I used to be responsible for our equipment specifications. Historically, we had required UL listings. I was asked by our suppliers if they could use ETL tested to those same standards to save development time. It seemed reasonable to me as ETL was a recognized lab. But, being "old and set in my ways", I was reluctant to change our requirements that had stood long before my tenure

When shopping for my home, if I am comparing 2 items (like a surge protector or power strip) and one is UL and the other ETL, I tend to buy the UL because of my experiences.

I should have mentioned earlier what I have seen from the sidelines is that each testing agency seems to have a range of expertise a bit different from others. When the sparkies at my former client made a panel for my equipment they would have CSA inspectors in to give it a look. It seems CSA has offices all over the country and particularly staff available for electrical inspections. Assume UL similar in USA. I know I can get quantity services from SGS at almost any location on the planet - but I strongly suspect that every company that has established a clear leadership/trust in testing and certification is charging a healthy premium for their services in such areas.

 

[manwithtools]

Classified not used in building codes much I know of. And I'm more doors and hardware than electrical. (Though very familiar with UL 1008 and 924!)

UL electrical classifications are very different from other UL product classes.

My company builds custom electrical control panels for all types of industries and equipment. Our Shop is UL 508A Certified, meaning we can build control panels using UL Listed and UL Recognized components and when the panel is complete, we perform a QC check and affix a UL label to the entire control panel and enclosure. We also review the design to make sure it meets UL and NEC requirements. Periodically UL inspectors make unannounced visits to check our work standards and log books.

 

[billconner]

UL electrical classifications are very different from other UL product classes.

My company builds custom electrical control panels for all types of industries and equipment. Our Shop is UL 508A Certified, meaning we can build control panels using UL Listed and UL Recognized components and when the panel is complete, we perform a QC check and affix a UL label to the entire control panel and enclosure. We also review the design to make sure it meets UL and NEC requirements. Periodically UL inspectors make unannounced visits to check our work standards and log books.

Yup. It's been a while since the control panels I specified were one of a kind, but the were all built by 508A shops. (motorized theatrical rigging.) It grown enough they are now more often a standard product.