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Ceiling fan installation.... wobbly box...

ZRX61

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Need to install a ceiling fan. I know how to do it, but have never done it. The issue is the metal box doodad in the ceiling that it mounts to is wobbly. I'm assuming I need to get up in the attic with some pieces of 2x4 to brace the box so it's solidly mounted before hanging the fan etc from it?
 
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nadogail

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Ceiling fans and their boxes can be installed from below if you use an appropriate fan box and support. I have installed many by using the boxes and boxes designed for the purpose. Good Fan Brackets and boxes are not cheap.

When a customer would ask me if the boxes were strong, I would hang my body weight from the box to demonstrate their strength.
 
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ZRX61

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Can't do it from below as there is blown in insulation. I guess I'm going up to the attic later to investigate

But it looks like I have the correct box, it's just lacking support.

Depending on what I find it the attic I may get one of these:
 

Shiftless

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Long ago, I used a 4x4 box with a mud ring and lag screwed the back of the box to a horizontal 2x6 which was screwed into 2 ceiling joists.
 
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ZRX61

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Been up to the attic. There's no way at all to access to box from above short of removing the main AC duct & smaller ones. So now it's on hold until the homeowner calms down because she's dealing with slab leak, the master bathroom being torn out on Tuesday & water being limited to a few minutes a day to shower/wash up & flash the crappers etc until the leak is fixed on Wednesday,
 
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ZRX61

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Long ago, I used a 4x4 box with a mud ring and lag screwed the back of the box to a horizontal 2x6 which was screwed into 2 ceiling joists.
There's no way to get anywhere near it from above & owing to the slope of the roof there's maybe 2 1/2ft of space between the bedroom ceiling & the roof... which is filled with ductwork.

I had to attach a piece of red plastic to a TIG rod that I poked up next to the ceiling box to even see where it was when I went back up to the attic.
Homeowner walked away muttering about "just buy a new house"
 

Joemctag

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The one's that Meursault references are made to be installed from below. Make sure the one you get can. Can you catch the insulation below and go up in the attic space and replace it after?
 

alfredeneuman

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NEC 314.27
C) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets. Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose,
 

yatg

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The retro fan boxes are easily installed from below. Knock out the existing box, remove the new box from the bar, put the bar in the hole, center the bar over the hole and tighten, stick the cable in the box, and reattach the box to the bar. IIRC, those boxes have 10-32 screws for mounting the fan.
 

Meursault74

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From below OP has to deal with the insulation, from above he has ductwork and limited space I guess he'll have to pick the lesser of two evils

reminded me of this movie line

 
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ZRX61

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The one's that Meursault references are made to be installed from below. Make sure the one you get can. Can you catch the insulation below and go up in the attic space and replace it after?
The closest I can get to from the attic is 8-10ft away... & owing to the fucked up breaker box in this house I'd probably be doing it with the power on. Barely any of the breakers are marked.

I think I need one of those squeaker/buzzer doohickies that tells you when the power is on or off. I'm a bit gunshy around electrical being from the UK where domestic feed is 240v/13a. I've been thrown across the room a couple of times & off a ladder back home.
 

sparky 1971

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Great, spacing is 21in, mounts are 21.5in... are they adjustable?
I have one of the kits shown in #4 on my truck. I just looked to be sure, but it's adjustable and works with 16 or 24" centers so you should be ok. Contrary to what others have posted, I find that they are a pita to install, especially with insulated ceilings. However, they do work.
 
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FMB4

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Unless it's a Big *** Fan or something similar, it really doesn't matter.
Yes it does. Most larger fans (38-44" and larger C fans come with ceiling cross-joist adjustable spanning brackets (2). Thinking that you can safely hang such size fans from a "metal box doodad" ??? is asking for trouble. Anyone who has installed such a size C fan would/should know this.
 

sparky 1971

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Yes it does. Most larger fans (38-44" and larger C fans come with ceiling cross-joist adjustable spanning brackets (2). Thinking that you can safely hang such size fans from a "metal box doodad" ??? is asking for trouble. Anyone who has installed such a size C fan would/should know this.
I have probably installed 500 ceiling fans, maybe more over the last 27 years and have never, ever seen a fan that comes with a cross joist bracket or it's own box that wasn't made of cardboard. The vast majority of those have been 52". The adjustable retro fit box that is mentioned is made specifically for cei!ing fans and chandeliers. It even says so on the box. Sometimes it helps to read more than the first post. If you had, you would have realized the issue had been taken care of and the metal box doodad should be going away.
 
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rlitman

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... are they adjustable?
All "old work" fan boxes are adjustable. They have an expanding arm that works like a turnbuckle with spiked ends that embed themselves into the ceiling joists (or rafters). You put it in through the hole, expand it by turning it with an adjustable wrench through the hole, and then attach the box to the rod with screws to a bracket. It's all done relatively easily from underneath.
 

Skooterj

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You are going to lose a little insulation, but old work, adjustable ceiling fan mounts work great from below.
 

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Terry D

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Is it a drywall or plaster ceiling, and what kind of wiring and how many wires. I ask this because even though the remodeler style fan brace can be a life saver, they can also be a pita. They are set up for 1/2 inch drywall so the box is even with the ceiling, anything thicker, and the box will be recessed higher. You might need longer screws and spacers. it is best to have the fan tighten up to to the box. If it has a bar hanger up there, it has to be removed. Modern construction with drywall and romex makes it easy to do. Some off the older style bar hangers are real heavy duty. And they are nailed to the bottom of the joist, so when you try to remove it, it is easy to pop the drywall or plaster. Sometimes the power comes into the box and just a switch leg goes to the switch. So you have to deal with more wires. There are just so many knock outs on the box. Another problem with them is over tightening them. I have seen them installed where they move the joist or truss and popped the drywall where the screws are. But if there is no way doing it from above, then it has to be done from below. You could have a side mount metal box now. They do make a side mount metal fan box that can be installed from below. Its really going to depend on your situation, every one is different. You wont know until you get into it. If you do end up with minor ceiling damage, you could use a medallion to cover it.
 
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sparky 1971

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Is it a drywall or plaster ceiling, and what kind of wiring and how many wires. I ask this because even though the remodeler style fan brace can be a life saver, they can also be a pita. They are set up for 1/2 inch drywall so the box is even with the ceiling, anything thicker, and the box will be recessed higher. You might need longer screws and spacers. it is best to have the fan tighten up to to the box. If it has a bar hanger up there, it has to be removed. Modern construction with drywall and romex makes it easy to do. Some off the older style bar hangers are real heavy duty. And they are nailed to the bottom of the joist, so when you try to remove it, it is easy to pop the drywall or plaster. Sometimes the power comes into the box and just a switch leg goes to the switch. So you have to deal with more wires. There are just so many knock outs on the box. Another problem with them is over tightening them. I have seen them installed where they move the joist or truss and popped the drywall where the screws are. But if there is no way doing it from above, then it has to be done from below. You could have a side mount metal box now. They do make a side mount metal fan box that can be installed from below. Its really going to depend on your situation, every one is different. You wont know until you get into it. If you do end up with minor ceiling damage, you could use a medallion to cover it.
Is there a medallion made specifically with ceiling fans in mind? Every one of them I have used made it a real ***** to get the screws into the side of the canopy.
 
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ZRX61

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AND!!!! Done! Finished the install yesterday.. It even works!!

Anywho. I got the bracket doodad for installing from below, then the fun started (about a month ago).
Removed the old box in a shower of insulation, about enough to fill a pillow
Put the bracket through the hole, took it down again, removed more insulation
Did that 3 or 4 times until I got the bracket level
Had a helluva job putting the box support over the bracket, that was also an in & out, up & down about 6 ******* times ordeal. Had to take the entire bracket down again & pull a staple that was holding the wire to a joist about 6in from the hole. There wasn't enough slack in the wire to get it over the bracket into the box with the staple still there.
Then put the bracket back up, installed the box support doodad & the box.
Got tickled a couple of times by the 110v
All sorted...
YAY!
Installed the fan bracket that hangs below the ceiling.
Assembled the fan
Twisted a bit awkwardly on the ladder. stopped play for two more weeks.

No ******** way to do this by myself. The maint guy from where roomie works showed up. Between us we got it installed & nada, no light, no fan, nothing. played with switches, wiring & the remote.
checked the battery in the remote... it was installed backwards,
sorted.
everything works.


so basically 6 months start to finish.. LOL!!
 

Jim greengo

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Is it a drywall or plaster ceiling, and what kind of wiring and how many wires. I ask this because even though the remodeler style fan brace can be a life saver, they can also be a pita. They are set up for 1/2 inch drywall so the box is even with the ceiling, anything thicker, and the box will be recessed higher. You might need longer screws and spacers. it is best to have the fan tighten up to to the box. If it has a bar hanger up there, it has to be removed. Modern construction with drywall and romex makes it easy to do. Some off the older style bar hangers are real heavy duty. And they are nailed to the bottom of the joist, so when you try to remove it, it is easy to pop the drywall or plaster. Sometimes the power comes into the box and just a switch leg goes to the switch. So you have to deal with more wires. There are just so many knock outs on the box. Another problem with them is over tightening them. I have seen them installed where they move the joist or truss and popped the drywall where the screws are. But if there is no way doing it from above, then it has to be done from below. You could have a side mount metal box now. They do make a side mount metal fan box that can be installed from below. Its really going to depend on your situation, every one is different. You wont know until you get into it. If you do end up with minor ceiling damage, you could use a medallion to cover it.
And that is why a service guy is worth his weight in gold folks.
Anybody can do new construction work. Hahaha
 

dogdog

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I have tried the ceiling fan bracket boxes, they didn't work out too well..End up in two of the installations, I Just cut a piece of 2x4 and uses some lag screws to screw on a heavy duty ceiling box. I can hang monkey and do pull ups on that piece 220# no issue. Definitely won't shake or wobble. If you are still unconvinced, just cut another piece and make it a upside down T to re-enforce the 2x4.

if it still does it's the fan unbalanced.

*********NVM.... skipped the part about 6 months and it was done post. LOL
 

Skooterj

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Got tickled a couple of times by the 110v
Turn the power off! You had energized, exposed bare wires sliding around while you were handling an easily sparkable metal box while surrounded by loose insulation that is who knows how old, with who knows how effective fire retardant. Turn the power off. I would have turned the whole building off if necessary. At the bare minimum, put a wire nut on the end of each wire.
And try to push the insulation up into the attic so that it will possibly later settle back into the void. No way you should have lost a whole pillow worth of insulation out a 4 inch hole.
 
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ZRX61

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I have tried the ceiling fan bracket boxes, they didn't work out too well..End up in two of the installations, I Just cut a piece of 2x4 and uses some lag screws to screw on a heavy duty ceiling box. I can hang monkey and do pull ups on that piece 220# no issue. Definitely won't shake or wobble. If you are still unconvinced, just cut another piece and make it a upside down T to re-enforce the 2x4.

if it still does it's the fan unbalanced.

*********NVM.... skipped the part about 6 months and it was done post. LOL
If I had access on the attic side I would have framed out a stout box for it.
 
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