Ceiling Fan Wiring/Electrical Question

[Winmon]

I just installed 2 industrial ceiling fans (w/ no lights) in my garage. The fans work on all 5 speeds but the control switch got real hot and melted the plastic on the back. This is what I am referring to:

I have both fans controlled by the (1) 5-speed control switch. I know Egan did this with no problems.
I wired it all as follows:
I first ran a 2 wire cable off a wall outlet (located close to where the ceiling fan switch is located. It is a outlet on a circuit that will not see much use) for power to the ceiling fan switch.

I then wired both ceiling fans into a junction box and joined them (black, white and ground wires) to the supply wire. In the junction box I wired all 3 black wires into 1 wire nut, all 3 whites wires into 1 wire nut and all 3 ground wires into 1 wire nut.

I then wired the 5 speed control switch (which has 2 black wires) by wiring control switches balck wire to the supply line black wire and then the control switches other black wire to the fans black wire (from the joined ceiling fans junction box). I then wired the white supply wire to the fans white wire and the ground wire from the supply to the fans ground wire.

Once all this was done, I turned the fuse to the circuit back on and both fans run on all 5 speeds. BUT after running for awhile I could smell something getting hot and discovered that the fans control switch was REAL warm/hot.

Did I wire something wrong? I thought it was a bad switch so I tried a second switch (that came with the second fan) and within 20 minutes it went from 97 degrees to 130 degrees (measured with a IR thermometer). I then cut power before it toasted that one. I am wondering if I joined the 2 ceiling fans wires incorrectly togather in the junction box. Should I have wired the junction box as follows?:
One fan's white wire to the other fan's white wire, both fan's black wire to the supply wire's black wire, and both fan's ground wires to the supply's ground wire?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I think you have wired the fans correctly. Power from the outlet (hot, neutral, and ground) up to the switch. You passed the white neutral thru via a wirenut, same with the ground, and ran the hot (black) thru the control switch. From there it was a simple white, black and ground to the fans. That seems right to me.

HOwever............. the switch may be designed to carry the load of only one fan. normal ceiling fans only draw about 60 watts or so, even heavy duty fans don't draw alot, but running two thru one switch may be too much. I'm thinking that is your problem, you will need two separate switches controlling the two fans.

Beyond that, I think you may have exceeded the fill limits on the box where the outlet is you tapped the wires off of. If it is 18 cu. in. it is too small for that many wires. Two wires under one screw is also not OK. Get a different receptacle, one that has backwire capability (not the cheap push in type) the one where you loosen the screw and insert straight wire and tighen the screw, pinching the wire under a serrated plate. You can get up to 4 whites and 4 blacks in properly this way. Other option is to take all three whites and wire nut them together with a short pigtail also included in the wirenut, do the same with the black, and hook the two short pigtails to the outlet.

I still suspect you problem is the switches themselves, not designed for the load of more than one fan.

Charles

 

[VvvJRvvV]

I agree with Charles. More than likely, your switch is only rated for one fan. That is probably why each fan came with its own switch.

 

[Winmon]

Thanks guys. I was planning on using 1 switch for each fan originally, then Egan mentioned to me that he used the 1 switch with the 2 fans (exact fans/switch I have) and is not having issues (except for 1 fan going faster then the other). I PM'd him to see how his is wired. I wonder if anyone makes a fan switch that will control 2 fans?

Other option is to take all three whites and wire nut them together with a short pigtail also included in the wirenut, do the same with the black, and hook the two short pigtails to the outlet

Charles, actually that is what I did after took the picture. I happened to see it in a electrical how-to book today. I think I will replace th entire box and outlet though if I have to run 2 switches. Thanks for the heads up on it!

 

[Gummi Bear]

Thanks guys. I was planning on using 1 switch for each fan originally, then Egan mentioned to me that he used the 1 switch with the 2 fans (exact fans/switch I have) and is not having issues (except for 1 fan going faster then the other). I PM'd him to see how his is wired. I wonder if anyone makes a fan switch that will control 2 fans?



Charles, actually that is what I did after took the picture. I happened to see it in a electrical how-to book today. I think I will replace th entire box and outlet though if I have to run 2 switches. Thanks for the heads up on it!

You can buy a better switch, but it won't be cheap.

Heavy duty solid state controls that are worth a darn aren't easy to come by. They're just not in demand anymore.

At this point, a VFD may be a better option (basic models are getting a bit more affordable).

What's the Horsepower rating for each of those fans?


As for your receptacle: The pigtail method is what is preferred nowadays. While you can use the good back wired receptacles like Charles pointed out, many municipalities frown on that method. If you're curious why, I can explain.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

As for your receptacle: The pigtail method is what is preferred nowadays. While you can use the good back wired receptacles like Charles pointed out, many municipalities frown on that method. If you're curious why, I can explain.

Do tell.

Charles

 

[Ign]

I agree with all, the switches that come w these fans are rated for 1 fan tops. Generally 1.25A, at least the three-blade "industrial" fans I use from Home Depot. The fan motors are 1A, and that extra 1/4 gives you a bit of cushion. The fans I get from HD have instructions specifically stating not to put more than one fan on each speed control.

In my old shop I simply ran both fans on their own speed control for this reason. It was fine, but it requires a bit more copper and truthfully I rarely had reason to want individual control of the fans.

In my new shop I have three of these fans, they're all on the same speed control. It's a rotary unit made by Leviton, good for 5A. Just walk into your local electrical supply (read: NOT Home Depot, Lowes, Ace, etc) and tell 'em you need a fan speed control good for at least two fans. The next step up is probably the 5A unit I have, and it retails for around $16. I've been using it for several months now with no ill effects, I run the fans on the lowest speed all the time now to push the heat down. Do not use a dimmer, you want a true speed control.

And I'd feel more comfortable if you used wire nuts w pigtails instead of "double tapping" that recep!

If you want my old (new never used) speed controls that came w my fans pm me, I can't bring myself to throw 'em away but I don't know what I'll ever do w them since they're only good for about an amp. They're slide units which fit decora cover plates w something like 5 stepped settings.

EDIT: given your mention of Egan I'm sure you've already seen this:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5186&page=2

 

[Stuart in MN]

Grainger sells fan speed controls, take a look at www.grainger.com and search on 'fan speed control'. I see they have the Leviton that IGN mentioned above. They have some made by Dayton that have even more capacity, that I've successfully used in the past to operate several large industrial ceiling fanc.

 

[mjribeiro]

I had the same problem with the Hunter 'Original' series fan- these things are something like 2.5 amp motors - I had to order special switches for them. I only did one per switch, but had I done two, the outcome would have been the same.

 

[Gummi Bear]

Do tell.

Charles

Here's the short version:

The idea behind pigtailing receptacles is that if you pull one to service it, you won't be interrupting the current down the line. As an electrician in the field, we seldom get the luxury to shut a circuit down for something as small as replacing a receptacle, and they sure don't want us accidentally knocking power out to any equipment down the line.

Also - some inspectors just don't like to see more than one set of wires on a given device. I've had 2 tell me this so far. They feel as though you get a better connection through a twisted joint under a wirenut than you do passing the load and current through a device.

No matter how it shakes out, ultimately we're at the mercy of the AHJ(Authority Having Jurisdiction / Inspector) and his interpretaion of the code. It's frustrating at times, some municipalities will amend the code, and expect you to heed their specifications, no matter how hair-brained some of them may seem.

There are some clever solutions to doing this, Ideal and T&B make a wirenut with a pigtail attached to it, crimped or soldered to the spring inside, it's one less wire to twist into a somtimes full joint. They also have a fork terminal on the end. We've used them on new construction jobs, and the guys in the field seem to like them.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Stumbled into these at Home Despot today, for the money they wanted, I'll stick to the old tried and true way.

Problem with building inspectors is that in many places they do not have a dedicated electrical inspector who is actually a licensed electrician and really knows the NEC thru and thru. In many places they hire a local jack of all trades who knows enough about electricity to be dangerous, and learned all of the inspecting requirements from the previous inspector. They usually make it up as they go.

Charles

Charles

 

[bmwpower]

I know it's wrong, but what if, instead of 2 separate connections on one screw, he had one continuous wire connected to the screw (ie, remove the insulation, wrap it around the screw)? Still not recommended? I think I may see one in the picts.

 

[Winmon]

I was just able to get up (had to borrow a taller ladder) and see if I could find a rating # on the fan. It says 120v 60HZ 0.5A 60W. Could that fan only be 1/2 an amp?

I also took the now partially melted switch apart and found a rating behind the rotary dial. BEHIND the rotary dial it says- max 6a-125vac/max 3a-250. Should I assume that rating is for the dial itself and not the entire switch (with transformer) since if it was the rating for the entire switch then it would be more then enough to power both fans?

Why is nothing easy?

I came across this switch @ Grainger. They go from $197-$272

And I'd feel more comfortable if you used wire nuts w pigtails instead of "double tapping" that recep!

I actually already did that after I took that picture. Came across the info while trying to find some info in my electrical how-to book.

EDIT: given your mention of Egan I'm sure you've already seen this:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...?t=5186&page=2

Thanks, ya I saw that post. I found it while searching for ceiling fan info before I bought the fans. I ended up buying the fans from the same guy on Ebay that Egan got his from. Thanks also for the offer on your switches.

 

[Gummi Bear]

Stumbled into these at Home Despot today, for the money they wanted, I'll stick to the old tried and true way.

Problem with building inspectors is that in many places they do not have a dedicated electrical inspector who is actually a licensed electrician and really knows the NEC thru and thru. In many places they hire a local jack of all trades who knows enough about electricity to be dangerous, and learned all of the inspecting requirements from the previous inspector. They usually make it up as they go.
Charles

Charles

Now this, is oh so true.

The wirenut pigtail deals are spendy, but when you're buying them by the thousands, you get a price break, and it saves labor. Saving a minute on each plug, x 1500 in a building is 25 hours saved. They pay for themselves quickly in that kind of quantity. I must admit, I don't use them for my small projects, I stick with making my own too.


BMW - that's an old residential trick. I've opened up plugs and switches from buildings as old as the 30's and seen that. Will it fly? That all depends on the mood of the inspector. He'd be more likely to nab you for your wires being too short than for that though (assuming you did the stripping without making a mess of the copper)

Winmon - Those fans are WAY smaller than I thought you were describing. A VFD for such a small load would be putting lipstick on a pig.

I think maybe the switch you have is a dud. .5A is hardly a load on a switch that's supposedly rated for 6. You could get a variable speed controller, but don't be surprised when your motors hum. Same goes for a 3 speed controller.

Lutron makes some of the highest quality controls out there. They're a bit more spendy, but much better made, so long as you avoid the low end residential series. The NOVA line is good stuff.

 

[Winmon]

I think maybe the switch you have is a dud.

That is what I thought too at first so I tried the other switch that came with the 2nd fan. This time I used a IR thermometer to check the temp.. After 5 minutes it was 97 degrees and within 20 minutes it went to 130 degrees. I then cut power before it toasted that one.

 

[Gummi Bear]

I think those switches may just be **** then.

They remind me of the old Encon controllers that were so popular in the late 70's an early 80's. They were basically junk too, and if you left your fan on for months at a time like I do, they just don't last.

Also - with fans getting cheaper and cheaper, it could very well be that one of the motors just isn't healthy. It could not be working at it's full efficiency, and pulling a ridiculous load. If you have an ammeter, check with that, just to rule out a bad motor.

 

[VvvJRvvV]

FYI, dimmers can and will get hot. Basically, you have a big resistor you are running the load through. I would go out and buy a 15a Leviton or Lutron. They are not that expensive. I have seen those cheap switches melt wallplates right off the wall.

Those wire nuts are almost 2 1/2 times what a regular wire nut would cost. For Johnny home owner they are great. Personally, I would not spend the money and can not see where it would save you that much time wiring up a receptacle.

 

[Gummi Bear]

FYI, dimmers can and will get hot. Basically, you have a big resistor you are running the load through. I would go out and buy a 15a Leviton or Lutron. They are not that expensive. I have seen those cheap switches melt wallplates right off the wall.

Those wire nuts are almost 2 1/2 times what a regular wire nut would cost. For Johnny home owner they are great. Personally, I would not spend the money and can not see where it would save you that much time wiring up a receptacle.

There's a difference between a dimmer, and a fan motor controller. Make sure that you're buying the right thing.

 

[VvvJRvvV]

You are correct sir. Sometimes my fingers don't type what my brain is thinking...

 

[bmwpower]

Can one of these fan motor controllers (to run 2 fans) fit in the middle of a 3 gang box? I wouldn't mind being able to control my fans, too.

 

[Gummi Bear]

Can one of these fan motor controllers (to run 2 fans) fit in the middle of a 3 gang box? I wouldn't mind being able to control my fans, too.

Potentially, yes.

Just watch what you're buying. There's loads of neat stuff out there. Fan controllers tend to jump up in size considerably past what a typical homeowner needs.

 

[Winmon]

Do not use a dimmer, you want a true speed control.

There's a difference between a dimmer, and a fan motor controller. Make sure that you're buying the right thing.

Next question. I went to a electrical supply place and bought a Lutron 5 amp slider fan control, model GFS-5E-WH. This is what I bought ...

FAN AND MOTOR SPEED CONTROL: VARIABLE SPEED; WHITE; 120 VAC AT 60 HZ; SLIDE ON/OFF OPERATOR; OPERATION TYPE SINGLE POLE; CEILING PADDLE/EXHAUST FAN LOAD; 5 AMPERE LOAD; APPLICATION RESIDENTIAL; APPROVAL UL, CSA, NOM; GLYDER[R] BRAND; GFS-5E MODEL

It does have 4 wires, black (hot), yellow (light), green (ground), and red (to fan). I do not have a light so I won't use the yellow wire or the ground wire (the switch I am replacing did not use a ground)

Is this considered a dimmer switch???

 

[bmwpower]

If that'll work, I could use one of those, too. Good find.

 

[Gummi Bear]

Next question. I went to a electrical supply place and bought a Lutron 5 amp slider fan control, model GFS-5E-WH. This is what I bought ...

FAN AND MOTOR SPEED CONTROL: VARIABLE SPEED; WHITE; 120 VAC AT 60 HZ; SLIDE ON/OFF OPERATOR; OPERATION TYPE SINGLE POLE; CEILING PADDLE/EXHAUST FAN LOAD; 5 AMPERE LOAD; APPLICATION RESIDENTIAL; APPROVAL UL, CSA, NOM; GLYDER[R] BRAND; GFS-5E MODEL

It does have 4 wires, black (hot), yellow (light), green (ground), and red (to fan). I do not have a light so I won't use the yellow wire or the ground wire (the switch I am replacing did not use a ground)

Is this considered a dimmer switch???

Is there two sliders, or a slider and a switch?

You should be able to use it as just a fan controller. Just cap off the yellow wire. (*double check the directions, and the schematic that's usually on the back of switches like this to verify that the yellow is the one to cap off)

 

[Winmon]

Is there two sliders, or a slider and a switch?

It just has 1 slider.

That schematic you posted is basically the same one that came with the switch. It does show the yellow hooked up to the light, but has a asterisk * sign that says "Cap off yellow if no light is used".

The reason I am asking about whether it is a fan switch or dimmer is because the box says "Single Pole Fan Control". The top of the instructions say "Fan/Light Controls" and then in the instructions it mentions "this dimmer mounts in a single-gang wallbox". I am thinking that the last one that mentions "dimmer' is a generic wording they use in both types?

 

[Ign]

I vote it's a fan control. They wouldn't say it can be used to control an electric motor like a fan otherwise.

 

[Winmon]

One other thing, the Lutron switch that I bought says to only use this switch with fans marked "Suitable for ise with solid state fan speed controls". My fan instructions do not mention this. Is there a way I can tell by looking at the fan motor? It does have a single capacitor.

 

[neptunesrevenge]

you have to also remember that the .5 amps is running amps, Starting amps could be as high as 10 amps per fan.

 

[Winmon]

Well, I finally found a fan switch that would work with my 2 fans. I really had no idea what a hassle it was going to be finding it. I Goggled and came up nothing that would work. Finally got a lead on a place that sells them. Here is what I ended up finding....

They make 2 versions, one for 2 fans (part #009A, rated at 2.5amps) and one for 3 to 5 fans (part # 009B, rated at 5 amps).

Here is a link if anyone else is looking to do the same thing. Now, this switch may not work for all fans (the instructions say it is for a capacitor fan). I believe that some fans will work with a fully variable switch, which is easy to find at a higher amperage. Mine needed a switch that had "stops" at each speed in addition to being at least 2 amps.

http://www.farreys.com/ceiling_fans/modern/fan_controls.html

 

[Egan]

Winmon, thanks for the PM. It looks like I'll be getting a new switch. Better safe than sorry.

As for inspectors, my inspector came for final inspection of my garage addition during the last week of December (it took me that long to get my lighted address numbers). He walked in, put a circuit tester in one receptacle (I have 4 separate circuits in the garage), and then spent 10 minutes bs'ing with me over my 1945 Ford GPW. He didn't look at the plans or any other aspect of the addition. He signed off and said adios.

I guess that's a good thing.?!

 

[Winmon]

Your welcome Mike.
I have heard of building inspectors like that. Mine certainly was'nt. Could be too that he saw your previous work and saw that it was done right. Wonder what would happen if something was not right that he was suppose to check, and it ended up causing a fire? Wonder if he would be liable?

 

[mt_spiffy]

The Lutron control listed comes up on their website as being fan only, no light, so I dont know why yours has a third wire. Regardless if it is fan rated and 5A it should work for you. Most industrial ceiling fans will work with capacitor based controls, solid state controls, and transformer based controls.

Last I checked Home Depot, Menards, etc sold a solid state control rated for 5A that was around $10.