Cement block walls versus stick built

[andyvh1959]

For my brother's sake I hope he made a reasonable choice for his 24x28 garage build. First some background: he had the lock edge slab put down back in 2003, with floor heat tubing in the slab. Since that time he has stalled building the garage until this spring. The slab is set 28' wide, three bays wide 24' deep. Left most bay will be tall enough to back in his Iveco 1.5 ton van body truck.

Because of the current crazy high lumber costs he has decided to have the walls laid up using 12 rows of 8" split face block that he got real cheap. Though, he plans to have the block put up split face IN so he can apply insulating sheets and lap siding to the outside. The locale is behind his house in a mature neighborhood of typical homes built in the late 60's. To me, if I was using split face block I'd face it outside and apply some sort of spray on concrete coloring to give it a finished look. Also, split face block facing in to me sounds like a certain dirt/dust collector, making it a pain to clean.

I hope for his sake it a good decision for east central Wisconsin weather to build with cement block walls. He already has questions about the lock edge slab supporting the block walls. I doubt the slab will support the walls unless it has a full four deep foundation wall. To do that now he'd have to add the foundation wall around the outside of the current slab and have it pinned to the slab. I question the "savings" of a block wall construction and then applying insulation and siding to the outside.

Plus how effectively can the walls be insulated to make the shop usable in Wisconsin winters. I already told him to plan for all wiring in conduit and surface mounted on the block walls. Plus all the OH door openings will require lam-beams or steel beams to support the wall load above. He'll be hiring out all the construction, maybe doing the finish work himself. Perhaps if he had the split face of the block facing out, then use some form of insulating wall panel to the inside with electrical running through it? Currently, lumber and wood for stick built walls is crazy high, but I question his planned "savings" with the other costs inherent to a block wall construction.

 

[CraigStu]

6 yrs ago when having a garage bay added my builder said running a couple of extra courses of block + 8ft stud wall was less expensive than 10ft stud walls. So, w/ wood prices of today, maybe your brother is correct. On the other hand, to make a block garage nice in cold weather, you almost need to build a stud wall inside of it. I also would be concerned about that slab supporting the walls since apparently it wasn't built w/ this in mind originally. Does he need to meet codes and pass inspections? And I agree w/ you on all the surface mounted stuff unless he does build an inside stud wall. W/ all our concerns, and the fact that every block garage I have ever been in sucked except for about 5 summer months each year, I wouldn't even consider a block garage.

 

[andyvh1959]

Yeah, I agree on all counts. He thinks he'll be saving money, but in the long run I doubt it. He also wants the bock so he can have a wash bay for his vehicles. These days that could be done using milk house style wall coverings on a stud wall. All sealed and caulked in and he has a wash bay. Insulating a 12 row block wall sufficiently to make it usable in the Wisconsin winters is a tough one.

The slab was pored as a lock edge type, 12" wide/thick around the perimeter. Doubt it will support the wall load 12 rows of block. I wonder if he could cut 8" cores through the edge, auger down to the front line depth and then pour the holes full of concrete to help support the block wall load.

 

[Bert_]

If I was building a garage it would get a stem wall or a row or two of block just to get the walls up off the slab. Just holds up better.

 

[CraigStu]

I agree. I have done that on two add-on bays in two different houses now and wouldn't have it any other way. I don't wash cars in our garage but definitely could. It also gets the wood and the siding way up out of the dirt so no chance of problems there.

If I was building a garage it would get a stem wall or a row or two of block just to get the walls up off the slab. Just holds up better.

 

[andyvh1959]

I have built three garages over the decades, and built everyone of them with at least one row of block on the slab before the walls went up. My most recent build is 8' walls on two rows of 8" block, for 9'-4" sidewalls. With the 5/12 scissors trusses I have 14'-4" at the interior peak.

 

[Firebrick43]

The farm I grew up on had a milking barn with split face block walls on the bottom story. Built in 39 and still standing tall. We had to rebuild the wood ends of the lofts due to the ballon framing but nothing wrong with the block.

I would fill at least every 2 feet a cell with some rebar and pea concrete. Run an horizontal rebar in a cut groove every two or three feet as well. If it wasnt splitface you could dry stack and surface bond it for much greater strength.

As far as insulation, Insofast panels would allow for a wood free insulation of the walls. Also to minimize water intrusion in the wall, use the most proven method in the history of man. Decent sized eaves. For the life of me I don't understand why anyone would use less than a 24 inch eave on any structure.

 

[gnpenning]

Not sure what he will be really saving with the cost to insulate the block. My last place i used ICF and will do it again. Montana winters here with radiant heat. Perfect combination.

 

[Firebrick43]

Not sure what he will be really saving with the cost to insulate the block. My last place i used ICF and will do it again. Montana winters here with radiant heat. Perfect combination.

I agree, but I learned a long time ago, its better just to beat you head against a wall than trying to reason with someone using cheap/free materials.

 

[Bert_]

Not sure what he will be really saving with the cost to insulate the block. My last place i used ICF and will do it again. Montana winters here with radiant heat. Perfect combination.

Only bad thing about icf for a garage is that you have to cover both sides. Would be nice to use the block as your finished surface. It's about the most durable thing there is.

 

[F451]

Great thread, learning a lot. I'm considering putting up a garage of some sort on my mother's property. A shed too, but that will be easier to do vs a complete garage. Have been considering stick vs block of some type. I like the idea of 1-3 courses of block, then stick on top. So many variables but the main ones are who in the family may be able to help me build it. If just me, I will have to hire most of it out = $$$. If I can convince a brother or two, better yet a local cousin, we could knock it out reasonably quickly and much cheaper of course.

Anyway, thanks for posting everyone.

 

[gnpenning]

You can just paint the ICF the inside or spray a stucco, attach plywood, drywall or leave plain.

 

[gnpenning]

Only bad thing about icf for a garage is that you have to cover both sides. Would be nice to use the block as your finished surface. It's about the most durable thing there is.

You can just paint the ICF on the inside or spray a stucco, attach plywood, drywall or leave plain. Best part is it's already insulated.

 

[andyvh1959]

I met with my brother last week to see what he has to work with/work from. The slab is a lock edge so it can't alone support the weight of 8'+ block walls. He already has the block and is determined to go that route. I suggested pouring foundation walls around the outside of the current slab, pinned into the slab. In essence, increase the building outer dimensions by 8" per side. But the slab location is already at the city code setbacks. To support the block walls, I suggested cutting 6" diameter cores through the slab edges, then auger down to the frost line and pour concrete piers pinned into the slab to support the block walls weight down below the frost line. Probably have to do 2' from each corner and then every four lineal feet around the slab.

Actually, I thought it was a wild *** idea. But turns out his neighbor works for a large commercial construction firm, and he claims they do this regularly, and his neighbor has access to the equipment/tools to do the coring. So now he plans to check with the city engineers to see if the idea meets codes and can be done to support the wall loads.

 

[CraigStu]

I'd try to get a variance and do your footers around the outside. It's out of the normal order of doing things but seems to me he would end up w/ the same thing as usual. Generally the footers are poured, the block wall laid, and the slab is near the last thing done. So the slab just floats inside the walls w/ virtually no load on it. The idea of creating new piers every 4 ft seems like there is 3.5 ft of unsupported block wall in between the piers laying on the edge of a slab that was not designed/built to do that job.

 

[nadogail]

Any advice I would make would depend on the important three “L”s Location, Location & Location.

 

[Tman]

Inside he could do what I did on my Strawbale shop. We framed out a curtain wall inside the bales at 24" OC, added backers then paneled the bottom 4 feet in tin and rocked the top. This allows easier runs for the electrical and nailers for hanging chit on the walls. The interior framed wall is not structural since the structure is post frame.

 

[Youngandfree]

If he can't get a variance on the setback, just cut off that side and build the walls outside the slab like suggested.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Yeah, well, I'd say you are right. But your brother is the one who should call an engineer.

 

[CraigStu]

Youngandfree has a great idea.

 

[billconner]

Not sure what a "lock edge slab" is but is it just a thickened edge slab on undisturbed soil or is a a part of a code compliant shallow frost protected foundation? A 12" reinforced slab edge that is not subject to frost heave should be OK for a masonry wall.


The masonry on the inside is popular in high thermal mass design, but usually more efficient in warmer - cooling - climate houses.

 

[gfd_703]

His 24 ft deep building just became a 22 ft 6 inch deep building before he adds anything for insulation on the inside. He could wind up under 22 ft easily. Will his vehicles even fit? I know my pickup would not. I would do my best to lay the block outside the original slab if anyway possible.

 

[andyvh1959]

I agree on all counts. He should have built the garage years ago when he knew for sure what he had for the slab and walls. Now to build with block will decrease the effective interior depth.

Actually, my suggestion to him is to sell the house as is, don't build the garage. Move out to the country where he can use the space he is now limited because of a standard city lot. He also needs access to the back yard which for the past 13 years has been between his house and the tolerant neighbor close to the north lot line. My brother actually drives over the lot line to get his 1.5 ton Iveco in the back yard. That neighbor just sold the house, so my brother is hustling to get an easement to insure access to his future garage. I don't see a reasonable outcome for him on this one.