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Century Old Flooring Question

zimman

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Bought a 115 year old house. Flooring is pine, 3.25x.75 and laid on 24" centers. No subfloor. Crawl space is shallow, dirt and some rock.
For whatever reason, can I lay a new floor over top of this with some success? I live in a heavy flooring manufacturing area (National Forest) and have literally hundreds of resources including a neighbor who sells, delivers and installs all types of floors. Current floor is okay but needs help in some ways.
What say the experts of GJ.
Zim
 
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The Cobbler

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Short answer is Probably Yes
what kind of flooring are you thinking?
you could lay luan perpendicular to the existing flooring, cut the ends back so they don't lay on an existing seam .
if you're laying wood floor, I would go perpendicular to the existing . laminate probably could go either direction
 
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zimman

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Short answer is Probably Yes
what kind of flooring are you thinking?
you could lay luan perpendicular to the existing flooring, cut the ends back so they don't lay on an existing seam .
if you're laying wood floor, I would go perpendicular to the existing . laminate probably could go either direction
I kind of figured that. I'm actually more concerned about "heat" than looks. I could sand this floor over a weekend for $85 rental and then seal it but would it still be a cold floor. Remember there's no subfloor.
Zim
 

RoninB4

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-When I first saw the floor photo I thought "Why does he want to cover this nice old floor?" Understand now about why you want to overlay. That's too bad, old pine looks nice and isn't seen very often anymore but a cold floor is uncomfortable.
 

Bert_

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With an unheated crawl space that floor is going to be cold no more what you put over it. Carpet would help but guessing that isn't what you want.
 
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zimman

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-When I first saw the floor photo I thought "Why does he want to cover this nice old floor?" Understand now about why you want to overlay. That's too bad, old pine looks nice and isn't seen very often anymore but a cold floor is uncomfortable.

Mostly because I'm freezing to death. LMAO
Seriously just trying to do the best thing. I don't want to cover them really but it was a thought.
Zim
 
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zimman

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Spray foam the underside?
Possibly. Only 18" in some places but dooable with some effort.
Zim
With an unheated crawl space that floor is going to be cold no more what you put over it. Carpet would help but guessing that isn't what you want.
I have the vent doors to the crawl space closed in the winter and open in the summer (and screened) as I was told to do.
Worked pretty this summer and it was warm too.
Zim
 

Bert_

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Possibly. Only 18" in some places but dooable with some effort.
Zim

I have the vent doors to the crawl space closed in the winter and open in the summer (and screened) as I was told to do.
Worked pretty this summer and it was warm too.
Zim
My opinion is the best thing you could do is seal the crawl space and condition it.
 

KenC

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Most floors of that type and age have huge air leaks through and around them. If the floor was installed after the walls where framed, and most were, there is fairly large gap at the perimeter as well as smaller gaps between boards.

Those must be corrected somehow if you want improve the heating efficiency. A new floor can be overlaid but pay close attention to fitting the perimeter.

A lot of them that age are balloon framed which makes them really hard to deal with air flow floor to ceiling/attic through the walls.
 

MoonRise

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Laying new flooring on top of the existing pine flooring isn't going to do much to insulate the floor.

The R value of 3/4" wood is about 1.

Put a complete new layer of 3/4" wood flooring on top of your existing floor boards and you are up to maybe R value of 2.

As well as making all the doors and baseboards needing to be reworked because the flooring is now 3/4" higher than it was. Ugh.

Want to make the floor less cold? Put vapor barrier on the crawl space dirt, then insulation under the floor on the crawl space side and possibly more vapor barrier on the bottom of the floor joists.

Options for insulation could be spray foam on the bottom of the flooring (can also act as a draft barrier and vapor barrier), batt insulation in the joist spaces, possible hard foam insulation panels attached to the bottom of the floor joists. Or a combination of those.

But new flooring boards on top of the existing flooring boards is NOT what I would choose to try and make the floor and house less cold.

Check with your utility company, around here they usually offer a free home energy audit to help you identify how to make your home more energy efficient.
 
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Chuckster in NJ

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Just my opinion, I would keep the floor as is. Install ripped sheets of foam in floor joist and spray foam (can) at joint of joists/foam.
I know people would pay big dollars for a pine floor like that…….. IMHO keep it and seal under the floor with foil/bubble/foil barrier wrap.

BTW! SOME spray foam and foam boards cannot be left exposed and must be covered……. Investigate PRIOR to installing if you decide the go the foam route.
 

MoonRise

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Good point Chuckster.

The only spray foam that I know of that is fire resistant is the fire stop $$$$ spray foam. All of the others, RTFM as they usually require a fire resistant covering and can't be left 'exposed'.
 

billconner

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Good point Chuckster.

The only spray foam that I know of that is fire resistant is the fire stop $$$$ spray foam. All of the others, RTFM as they usually require a fire resistant covering and can't be left 'exposed'.
I thought the covering was only required for habitable spaces. The IRC says "interior finishes". Is a crawl space "interior"? Seems a lot of encapsulated crawls have exposed spray foam.

Just for the record, I don't endorse insulating the floor above a crawl regardless of the insulation material. I think the potential for condensation and the mold and/or rot resulting over the life of the building is still too high.
 

Kaizen

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wow this sounds like my house on the other side of the country. I have the exact......seriously exact same thing. I'll write out some stuff maybe it will help. My crawlspace also is like a foot from the dirt to the joists and an addition to the main house that has a basement. I have no idea how they put the baseboard heat in that room.
My house is 120yrs old and this addition only has 2 feetof whatever rock they found on the property. It extends only 6" below grade. That was a big surprise.
Mine wood looks like yours after i stripped off 6 layers of flooring.....talk about a time capsule. But mine is straight grain fir not pine. I was told the only way to tell them apart is to cut them. I also have 2 layers of it instead of a traditional subfloor. I only found that because i had to cut through it for a frozen pipe. If yours looks the same on the underside but you can't see through it you probably have 2 layers as well.
Short of jacking it up and adding a proper concrete basement with height to move around, the only way i've come up with insulating would be to rip the floor up down to the joists, probably put in I-joists to get more height, add subfloor, then add that underfloor radiant heating stuff that is routed out to put pex heat in it, then the top floor. That way i'd have a heated and somewhat insulated floor. Doubt i'll do that ever.
https://www.warmboard.com/products/...vBuNvEL7KNSTSibCEoYXm66gcu1ve1xhoC4kAQAvD_BwE

Adding any insulation in the bays underneath (rockwool, fiberglass, etc) just seems to make a nice mouse motel. Even after you kill them their **** and piss are still there. God forbid if something bigger gets in there through those doors.
I took those doors out and sealed them up. I also repointed the foundation to keep the wind out. If you can get the lowest strip of siding up you can air seal with zip tape and/or zip caulking so the fountation to sill is sealed. you don't have anything in there now so big air leak area. General concensus I got when researching is to NOT sprayfoam the inside of the foundation if its rock. Those foundations will constantly be transmitting water in and out so sprayfoam increases the changes of mold.
Guessing those windows are double hung with ropes that go to weights in the side pockets. I've replaced just about all of mine over the last 30 years with anderson 200 series. IMO the most important thing is to get rid of those side pockets if you do. I increased the size of my windows and got rid of them. This of course makes interior drywall/trim and exterior work but something to think about. Replacement windows without at least spray foaming that whole cavity just isnt worth it.
When i drywalled this room......the 1st time lol.......i added 1.5" thick pieces of 2x4 to each actual 2x4 wall stud so i could have a true 2x6 cavity and add rockwool.
I get some heating down there from the baseboard heater pipes but if its single digits out that floor is freezing. I just put shoes on if i'm going to be in there. Consider a carpet for the winter that you can roll up in summer and store away.
 

NUTTSGT

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Got a basement at all ? Ours is about half basement, half crawlspace. I insulated the exterior walls of the crawlspace and added a register vent in the plenum (main trunk) of the furnace. This allows heat in the basement and then is blown into the crawlspace with a box fan.... Low and slow.

It's not an end all fix but I don't worry about freezing pipes anymore and the floor is warmer.
 

PWC Repair

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With that age of house and the antique single pane windows..........do you even have any insulation in the walls? My 50's house DID NOT and it was tough to heat it. Since then I've gutted and remodeled every room except the kitchen. I also have zero insulation under my ardwood floors. We wear house shoes.
 

Joemctag

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-When I first saw the floor photo I thought "Why does he want to cover this nice old floor?" Understand now about why you want to overlay. That's too bad, old pine looks nice and isn't seen very often anymore but a cold floor is uncomfortable.
For one reason, you can probably peer into the gaps on the priginalfloor boards and see the dirt. Think I’d put a layer of felt tarpaper and run the coveringfloor boards or planks perpendicular.
 

RoninB4

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For one reason, you can probably peer into the gaps on the original floor boards and see the dirt.
-Yeah if it's "full cross flow ventilation" then that changes things a bit. Some folks like new/shiny, I'm not always one of them. Blocking entrances for dirt/insects does overrule my penchant for history.
 

Joemctag

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-Yeah if it's "full cross flow ventilation" then that changes things a bit. Some folks like new/shiny, I'm not always one of them. Blocking entrances for dirt/insects does overrule my penchant for history.
Yeah, when the old lady sees roaches crawling up into the nice, warm house, she might not be groovin on the cross-flow trip so much anymore.
Not that you can keep them out anyway. But at least she doesn’t have to see them so conspicuously coming up through the gaps.
 

RoninB4

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Yeah, when the old lady sees roaches crawling up into the nice, warm house, she might not be groovin on the cross-flow trip so much anymore.
Not that you can keep them out anyway. But at least she doesn’t have to see them so conspicuously coming up through the gaps.
-Spiders and useful insects don't bother me but roaches incite open warfare. From decades of renting apartments in Chicago I have a large revulsion to cockroaches and would want to go scorched earth on them. I have used boric acid powder with success, just keep it away from children/pets. I'm not a meticulous housekeeper but am thankful I don't have the disgusting creatures here. At least spiders eat other insects and the rat snake in the garage eats the rodents.
 

RoninB4

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Ronin, I’m probably like you: not bothered by a few bugs. I grew up in Houston: roach country. Just sayin.
-The tiny German cockroaches were disgusting but it was those Field Marshall sized cockroaches (red shell/white underbelly) that got to me the worst, especially when they would fly around in the apartment. In Florida they call them Palmetto bugs and claim they don't have cockroaches but those are cockroaches. I've hit them with an available hammer only to watch them crawl off. When I lived in Louisiana those d*amn things were everywhere, they lived in rotting logs on the ground. I'm not squeamish but I get unhinged at the sight of cockroaches in my house.
 

Joemctag

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Bought a 115 year old house. Flooring is pine, 3.25x.75 and laid on 24" centers. No subfloor. Crawl space is shallow, dirt and some rock.
For whatever reason, can I lay a new floor over top of this with some success? I live in a heavy flooring manufacturing area (National Forest) and have literally hundreds of resources including a neighbor who sells, delivers and installs all types of floors. Current floor is okay but needs help in some ways.
What say the experts of GJ.
Zim
Truth is, I bought an old house with floors just like yours 4 years ago. The old lady kept wanting me to do th floors first, opposite of what you normally do. After doing a lot of work on walls, demolition, new plumbing, I wised up and started to realize that my contractor friend was right: eed to buldoze it. Ot worth it. Lots of other problems which I won’t bore you with here. It my mistake to buy it and I’m selling it. Value was 5 acres, and a barn, fenced and watered for horses, House was really not worth doing anything with.
Well, goodluck, however it works out!
 

67King

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Another vote for foam. On opposite end as you, moved into this house a month ago after a nearly 4 year build. Going to run solar, hopefully fully off grid, so insulation was key. I foamed the snot out of the place. Just went to our attic, which is not climate controlled, and is entered from the outside, so essentially each end and both roofs are open to the outside. 3/4 of it is over an unconditioned garage, 1/4 of it is over our kitchen. Anyway, we used open cell foam same thickness as the joists. It is 20 degrees outside, and 54 inside the attic. 69 in the house.
 
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zimman

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Truth is, I bought an old house with floors just like yours 4 years ago. The old lady kept wanting me to do th floors first, opposite of what you normally do. After doing a lot of work on walls, demolition, new plumbing, I wised up and started to realize that my contractor friend was right: eed to buldoze it. Ot worth it. Lots of other problems which I won’t bore you with here. It my mistake to buy it and I’m selling it. Value was 5 acres, and a barn, fenced and watered for horses, House was really not worth doing anything with.
Well, goodluck, however it works out!
My house was probably alot worse than yours. I was just an idiot.
Another vote for foam. On opposite end as you, moved into this house a month ago after a nearly 4 year build. Going to run solar, hopefully fully off grid, so insulation was key. I foamed the snot out of the place. Just went to our attic, which is not climate controlled, and is entered from the outside, so essentially each end and both roofs are open to the outside. 3/4 of it is over an unconditioned garage, 1/4 of it is over our kitchen. Anyway, we used open cell foam same thickness as the joists. It is 20 degrees outside, and 54 inside the attic. 69 in the house.
It's going to be fun. LOL. This was a screaming deal with the house and one acre for $65,000. I'm not going anywhere. LMAO. I enjoy the work. No one comes over much so we're not concerned with folks walking around with napkins under their drink. I'm going to level the floors in the spring and sand/seal the floors also. Sealing will fill the gaps and we've already got some carpets that work well. Highest electric bill was a buck fifty so I'm good with that also. Like I said it's going to be fun and I can't wait to get started.
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments.
Zim
 
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