Wow man plenty of smart people own there own blue collar businesses. Education is a great thing just college isn't for everyone. Some need trade school or other educations. I can't stand when people think normal working class folks are dumb, ignorant or not educated just because we don't have degrees that fancy education is really showing its true colors...
Certificate Degree
- Thread starter hickmlg09
- Start date
Youre absolutely right.
I hate the idiots in both camps - the ones who think all blue collar professions are stupid people and the ones who think college folks wasted time and money to get a degree.
gatewaysysop
Well-known member
The whole college = up to eyeballs in debt thing is a bit overblown, I think. In-state, where you can pursue cheaper living space off campus, it's not going to bury you for the rest of your life. If you have the aptitude and get scholarship money, so much the better.
As for spending more than 4 years in college, not sure how it works everywhere, but the college paid ME to go to graduate school, with benefits. Mountain of debt nowhere to be seen, I left with a job and money in the bank.
Just my $.02
As for spending more than 4 years in college, not sure how it works everywhere, but the college paid ME to go to graduate school, with benefits. Mountain of debt nowhere to be seen, I left with a job and money in the bank.
Just my $.02
justanengineer
Well-known member
+1. There are many ways to go about life and frankly I would suggest college isnt necessarily the best approach for many. The sad truth of the matter is that the degrees most pursue today are little more than professional scams leaving the student in debt and making nothing more than they made before the "education."
Something else to consider along similar lines that I like to point out to the tradesmen I work with when they start joking about my salary and profession --> outside of bonuses, taxes, and other normal deductions its fixed month to month unlike their hourly paid total. Making 25% more per hour when divided by 40 than they do doesnt work out so well for me when we both work 80 hours per week, which unfortunately isnt that uncommon. Cant gripe tho, I love my job as I hope they love theirs, and their joking is usually friendly when we're both getting greasy.
Some guys here justify their tool truck loan. Some guys can justify a student loan or paying for school without a loan. Some people can even prove to you with real world math (accountants for example) the difference in their overall compensation for a career with a degree vs without. Education is just another tool you use to do your job, or help you get the job you want.
Yes accounting is a BA degree and yes I stick with what I said that a BS is what most people should look toward for their educational goal. I also did not equate every BA degree is artsy fartsy, just the one example you provided. And no, I did not say it was worthless.
(I am making an assumption here, no offense intended) Let's say something happens with our accountant and he can't be a self-employed CPA now. He could work at a company as an accountant, work at a tax prep company, at a law firm, etc. Without the degree he's a guy who's good at math. With the degree he's qualified for the position. He's the same guy, the paper helps him prove it. ESPECIALLY if you're now looking for a job because your experience may be called into question.
Here is what I would do in her situation. Get the AS degree. Get a job turning wrenches, watch what you have to go into debt for (tools & school both) and continue school until you have the BS. Nights, weekends, seasonally depending on her situation. Will it take time? Yes. Is it immediately going to change her life if she's working as a mechanic? No.
So since the 20 year career was mentioned, let's say she finished HS at 18. 2 years in tech school, she's 20. a few years working & in school, now she's 25 with a degree. Time to immediately quit and get another job? No. Time to tell her employer she wants another position? No. Time to possibly use her free time (no longer in school) to make extra money using the knowledge and/or opportunity the degree proivides? Sure. Time to consider grad school? Sure. Time to take a little break? Sure. Throughout her 20 years as a mech she could choose (or be forced to choose in an unforeseeable situation) another career path.
Let's talk about the other possibility. She goes to work for a garage, shows up every day for 20 years and takes home a check. She gets hurt, she wants extra income for a hobby, she gets tired of doing it and wants to try something else. You going to hire a girl who's got no school and been a mechanic for 20 years for something other than mechanic work? Probably not.
What's the difference? She has options with the degree. And she has more options the more school she completes.
Yes accounting is a BA degree and yes I stick with what I said that a BS is what most people should look toward for their educational goal. I also did not equate every BA degree is artsy fartsy, just the one example you provided. And no, I did not say it was worthless.
(I am making an assumption here, no offense intended) Let's say something happens with our accountant and he can't be a self-employed CPA now. He could work at a company as an accountant, work at a tax prep company, at a law firm, etc. Without the degree he's a guy who's good at math. With the degree he's qualified for the position. He's the same guy, the paper helps him prove it. ESPECIALLY if you're now looking for a job because your experience may be called into question.
Here is what I would do in her situation. Get the AS degree. Get a job turning wrenches, watch what you have to go into debt for (tools & school both) and continue school until you have the BS. Nights, weekends, seasonally depending on her situation. Will it take time? Yes. Is it immediately going to change her life if she's working as a mechanic? No.
So since the 20 year career was mentioned, let's say she finished HS at 18. 2 years in tech school, she's 20. a few years working & in school, now she's 25 with a degree. Time to immediately quit and get another job? No. Time to tell her employer she wants another position? No. Time to possibly use her free time (no longer in school) to make extra money using the knowledge and/or opportunity the degree proivides? Sure. Time to consider grad school? Sure. Time to take a little break? Sure. Throughout her 20 years as a mech she could choose (or be forced to choose in an unforeseeable situation) another career path.
Let's talk about the other possibility. She goes to work for a garage, shows up every day for 20 years and takes home a check. She gets hurt, she wants extra income for a hobby, she gets tired of doing it and wants to try something else. You going to hire a girl who's got no school and been a mechanic for 20 years for something other than mechanic work? Probably not.
What's the difference? She has options with the degree. And she has more options the more school she completes.
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IONH
Well-known member
True story right there. Sure, some people will love pushing the same carts and buttons every day accomplishing the same goals for 50 years from high school graduation (not required) through retirement, but that's not for everyone.
What's even more unfortunate are the parents who don't want more doors to be open for their kids. I know a couple families right now whose parents work jobs without requiring degrees and their kids are going down the same path. It is difficult, but I am trying to accept that not everyone wants the level of success I was brought up to have.
For the record, neither of my parents have any college education and I was repeatedly told while growing up that I was going to college and that they wanted better for me than they had.
bcradio
Well-known member
Where did the one post wonder go?
85camaro
Banned
As long as you have your mind made up to go in to the automotive business, I would suggest you take a basic electronics course.
Also, if you're going to work on cars, you must know electrical. If you don't already know electrical, then start.
Also, if you're going to work on cars, you must know electrical. If you don't already know electrical, then start.
You're way off. She posted originally she's thinking about cutting down to a lesser degree, getting out of school faster. She needs the support and encouragement. I am not suggesting it's for everyone. I am trying to encourage her, she's got her future ahead of her. Put forth the best path possible, and let her make her decisions.
Young people need old people to give them realism. Take a look at what I've said, tell me what specifically has been unrealistically optimistic. I could see if I was telling her about the unicorns and rainbows that await her on the first day of college, or how easy and how drunk she can get and still ace tests.
But what you're giving is 'don't bother' ism. That's worse than just being pessimistic. You're giving her so much bad advice if she was your kid I would consider it child abuse. I'm not saying anything you say is wrong since it does happen in the real world. What I'm saying is this is horrible, awful advice for a young person.
We are talking an Auto Tech Certificate program vs an Auto Tech AAS degree I presume? If it is 9 months vs 18 months I say go for the AAS degree. As others have pointed out the degree will help if you want move up the food chain as a Tech.
There is a case for skipping the degree in some cases but if you can get in and get out without a lot of debt I think the degree is the smart decision.
There is a case for skipping the degree in some cases but if you can get in and get out without a lot of debt I think the degree is the smart decision.
Conductor562
Well-known member
I skipped College, got a certificate degree for my job, and ended up a lot better off. A lot older in seniority, a lot less debt, and a lot less ******** to go through.The College guys my age were furloughed months ago due to the time they lost in college and I still hold lots of work and didn't have to uproot my family chasing it. In my early 20's I could support a family, my wife and I both drove new cars, had good benefits, and had enough left over to travel a little bit. That being said, things working out the way they did took a lot of luck and a lot of "right time, right place" type scenarios falling into place. If I lost my job today I might find another position out west somewhere, but that would require my family and I to start all over. If I wanted to stay close to where I am I'd be out of luck. A degree is not necessarily a better job or better money as they'd like you to believe, and depending on the pay scale and long term stability of your chosen profession the cost of the degree may very well outweigh the benefits, but a degree is in nearly all cases a better chance of finding suitable employment if something changes.
My cousin went nearly $250,000 in debt earning 3 ******** degrees. He had not intention of paying the debt back, that didn't work out too well. He works for the state making less than half of what I do and his wages are garnished almost $900 a month until he's like 50 years old. He can't afford to live and he and his wife live with his parents with credit so bad he can't get a cell phone in his name. He went to an expensive school and wasted 7 years getting degrees and borrowed thousands of dollars extra per semester to live on and party it up. College debt has literally ruined his life. Every year at Christmas I hear my aunt ramble on about how smart he is and how wonderful it is that he got an education and it makes me want to puke. There are a lot of things to consider, but a degree will open doors that would have otherwise been closed. Just don't waste 4 years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars on a degree that gets you $$35,000 a year. Don't let the cost outweigh the benefit.
My cousin went nearly $250,000 in debt earning 3 ******** degrees. He had not intention of paying the debt back, that didn't work out too well. He works for the state making less than half of what I do and his wages are garnished almost $900 a month until he's like 50 years old. He can't afford to live and he and his wife live with his parents with credit so bad he can't get a cell phone in his name. He went to an expensive school and wasted 7 years getting degrees and borrowed thousands of dollars extra per semester to live on and party it up. College debt has literally ruined his life. Every year at Christmas I hear my aunt ramble on about how smart he is and how wonderful it is that he got an education and it makes me want to puke. There are a lot of things to consider, but a degree will open doors that would have otherwise been closed. Just don't waste 4 years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars on a degree that gets you $$35,000 a year. Don't let the cost outweigh the benefit.
I would get a degree. One day, if you stay in the busness long enough (turning wrenches), your body will be torn down, broken and worn out. Or you may just tire of working in a garage. If you have your degree you could one day move from the garage to the air conditioned/heated office. Turning wrenches is satisfying work but it's also nice to just assign work orders and do paperwork. Think TRANSPORTATION DIRECTOR. I would also recomend getting a CDL lic.
justanengineer
Well-known member
Maybe she got bored with all of the bellyachin going on.
Relax fellas, it could be worse - she could be getting a "business" degree...
trbomax
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with skilled trades.hell,Ive got a ba in me,and a masters in voc ed. My youngest son ,age 31, is a union pipefitter/welder and pulled down 85k last year. I never made that much in a year with my "degrees",but in fact, I made WAY more $ /yr when I was in the marina/fab shop bussiness and I could have done that w/o any college.
Conductor562
Well-known member
It is what it is. In my area of the world it makes no sense to get a degree unless you're going in to Engineering, Medicine, or Law, you're wasting your time. I understand that isn't the case everywhere, but a lot of times it is. Student loan debt has crippled many of my generation for a quarter of their lives or more in some cases. Maybe it's the economy or whatever, but it seems to me that the cost of an education keeps going up while the return on investment keeps going down
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Duckface, are you quite through trolling this thread? you have twice as many posts in it as your nearest "competitor" and this last one shows you apparently like to lie?
Maybe you need to try the 11th grade again... (Then you can claim 33 years)
You can beat your chest all you want about the false prophet that college is. The fact of the matter is the folks with college degrees or greater had a ~5% unemployment rate the last few years. Folks without college degrees did much worse and ended up on the internet screaming about how Bain Capital exported their jobs.
Conductor562
Well-known member
I don't doubt that statistic to be true, but college is an individual decision for an individual situation. It's an investment vs. return question and the answer is highly individualized. I seem to remember the landscape changing when you factored in college graduates that were "underemployed". What exactly the factors used to calculate "underemployment" are is beyond me.
I have no numbers or specific cases to back this up, but if you watch any news channel for a few hours, someone will tell you that STEM jobs are out there but companies have difficulty filling them. Some qualified people don't want to move or leave their current position, some candidates aren't actually qualified as well as they claim after the research, or some other silliness. One person I saw on MSNBC claimed that some people are making too much money in positions they're overqualified for to move to ones their background would be more relevant (and they would have to work harder to make the same take home pay). I don't know how widespread this is, but I can definitely see it being true without needing examples to prove it.
96snma
Well-known member
Don't you think that's a bit on the extreme end of the spectrum. Just as those guy who became millionaires without a high school diploma.
My friends dad didn't graduate high school and started trucking. Years later and a lot of rough patches he owns his own business and makes a damn good living doing it. Pretty much anything he wants is attainable but he has had to work extremely hard for it and is at the point where he wants to get out but doesn't really know what else he can do.
His son and my best friend went to school and got his electrical eng tech diploma(2year). Worked hard was top of his class and got on with a power company maintaining the train system and sub stations. Within 2 years he was making $40/hr. It was a great job but he got bored of it and it was almost tops of what he was able to do. Decided to go for the remaining 2 years to finish the full engineering degree. He's probably going to go back to what he was doing right out of school but in 5 years when he gets bored he can change forcus to different aspects and continually advance or do different work. It was easier to do that when he was young without wife/kids/mortgage rather than after he was years in the field like his dad.
Ps he has zero debt
I think you both make a good point especially when speaking of multiple degrees and huge school loans. Heck two of the most successful guys of my generations are college drop outs; Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.
OTH I believe we are talking 9 months vs 18. Its not a huge difference in time or money and it could be very useful career wise. I also think a four year degree can be useful even if indirectly. And that can be done pt and with no student loans. Heck lots of people go to school full time AND work full time.
Now personally I work for myself and while a degree in the field would be helpful I do pretty good without one (in this field). My two sisters have Master's degrees and are unemployed.
Conductor562
Well-known member
Yes, it is an extreme case, but the situation with your friend isn't exactly the norm either. As I said in a previous post, Engineering, Law, and Medicine are the exceptions. It all depends on what you plan to do. I'm a firm believer that college is the best option for some people, but it is not always the case. That's the point Ducksface and I were making. In most cases college will make more doors open to you, but it really depends on what doors your trying to open. A 4 year degree for a job making $35,000 isn't cost effective. If you have a significant scholarship or something that's obviously a game changer. Again, it's an individual question with an individual answer.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Your own admission was in the quote, I bolded it for you, since you seem to have a problem finding your own admission...
I'm currently in college in my senior year for a mechanical engineering degree. I think it is foolish how some of the lower paying majors justify what their degree because it is "what they love". Just my opinion. I agree with duckface about it being more about the individual. I really feel that I have the work ethic to where I would be successful college degree or not. College is not really fun for me, but I realize that it is only 4 years of my life and will make a difference in the end.
http://enrollment.missouri.edu/Reports_and_Data/destination_study.php
http://enrollment.missouri.edu/Reports_and_Data/destination_study.php
Conductor562
Well-known member
I agree 100% In Hick's case it makes complete sense to go the 18 months.
My question would be could she nail down the certificate and then continue pt and finish the AAS while working full-time? If you want to get ahead you have to do more than the next guy. When you are young there is no excuse not to IMO.
96snma
Well-known member
No I think so too. A lot of people are lost and take awhile to find themselves. Some of the smartest people I know haven't went to university. However almost all have gotten some for of post secondary- including trades.
My grandpa came from Germany in '58 and carved out a great living for himself and family with his two hands. Including a vacation cabin and 3 months in Texas every year.
It depends on the person and their ambitions
nuklbstr83
Well-known member
are you saying that people should go to college to earn a degree in a field they aren't interested in just because it will pay better & they can go to work everyday hating their job, but justifying it by having money, a new car, and material possessions?
if that's the case, then you're going to be one terrible engineer, Just MY opinion.
kngelv
Well-known member
No. You shouldn't work some place or in a field that you "hate". But you should make a rational compromise between something you enjoy doing and something that will pay a livable wage.
For instance, I haven't met a single person who has taken a psychology class and not enjoyed it. I enjoyed it when I had it in high school. I would probably enjoy having a job in that field. However I am not majoring in it, because I can't justify the $14/hr paycheck upon graduation.
I think you misunderstood me when I said college is not really fun for me. I meant that the classes are difficult, I spend most of my day at school, most of the evening doing homework or studying, and part of the weekend studying as well. I really hope what I'm doing now is more work and stress than what I will be doing in the workforce (I hear that it's not though)
I love engineering and how it is EVERYWHERE in the world, I just don't have much fun in college.
For instance, I haven't met a single person who has taken a psychology class and not enjoyed it. I enjoyed it when I had it in high school. I would probably enjoy having a job in that field. However I am not majoring in it, because I can't justify the $14/hr paycheck upon graduation.
I think you misunderstood me when I said college is not really fun for me. I meant that the classes are difficult, I spend most of my day at school, most of the evening doing homework or studying, and part of the weekend studying as well. I really hope what I'm doing now is more work and stress than what I will be doing in the workforce (I hear that it's not though)
I love engineering and how it is EVERYWHERE in the world, I just don't have much fun in college.
nuklbstr83
Well-known member
gotcha.
hifi_hokie
Well-known member
I graduated in 2009, and laughed at the results of our survey...
I'd love to see if they published distributions of what they consider their "average" salary numbers.
I was just trying to say you will have more options with a degree than without a degree.
A had similar thing happened to me on my job. They needed a bus driver one day. I was the only one in the shop with a CDL lic, Air brake, and pass endorsement....Guess who got to take a 3 hour trip to FoxWood casino.
jebutler
Active member
To the O.P., if you're planning on becoming an automotive tech., in your spare time go around to the local shops and dealerships and talk to those that do the hiring. Find out what their preferences are and base your decision from there. In my region a cert. with experience will get you much further than an A.S. in auto technology. The poodle papers will come in handy if you may try for management in the future. With all the online courses available now an A.S. wouldn't be to much of a problem later on. 4 year degrees for turning wrenches?
vette-kid
Well-known member
Well, college isn't for everyone, but I kind of take offense to your statement here. College is NOT a place to get rid of your kids, at 18 they should be making their own way one way or the other.
A college degree is ALWAYS beneficial. Even if you don't use the specific information that your degree covers, you gain a lot more than just information on business, or law or whatever your degree was. I have a business degree and have found the education invaluable even though I don't work in corporate America. Im a military man actually. I went for an MBA because I wanted the further education. Again, I have found it beneficial, even though I have never had to do ANY of the business analysis tools that I was taught. If it was my business, I would employee the candidate with the most education. There are, of course times where experience is just as important. But if I can have someone with a 4yr degree right out of school, or one with no degree and 4 yrs of experience, ill take the guy with the degree.
A degree also opens up more doors for you later in life. Perhaps your tired of working for others and want to run your own business. I degree will be priceless in that endeavor. I have nothing against trade work, or those who don't have a degree. Far from it. But on a professional level, I think it just makes sense.
sberry
Banned
Not having paper hurts me more now than when I was young.
because there is such an insane surplus of it. Went foe my AAS a couple years ago. Sat next to so many getting their 2nd BA. Just as unemployed as i was.
quattroJoe
Well-known member
Thought this was an insult until I went back and looked at the OP's name [emoji1]