CFL Bulbs...disappointing! Alternatives?

[TipsyMcStagger]

A buddy came over a couple of weeks ago and helped me install nine recessed Commercial Electric (Home Depot) 6" cans in my 20' x 22' garage. My buddy (electrician) commented during the installation how well lit the garage will be.

I used 65w equivalent "daylight" R30 CFL (Eco Smart) bulbs in the fixtures and I'm thoroughly disappointed in the light output. Prior to the cans, I had my old kitchen fixture in the garage with four 4' T12 tubes. I'm not so sure I haven't taken a step backward!

At the time, I wasn't interested in spending another $360 on nine LED retrofits but now I'm wondering if this is what I'll need to do to get decent output.

Is it worth stepping up to 95w or 120w equivalent R40 CFL's? The warm-up time is annoying but if the end result is worth it, I can live with two to three minute wait. CFL's are about $11 each vs. $40 each for the LED retrofits.

TIA.

Tipsy

 

[SMKS]

Did you crunch the numbers beforehand to calculate light output between the old and new systems? A 65w equivalent is pretty dim for a garage, from my limited experience.

In my last one car garage (about 11' wide by 20' deep) I had four dual-bulb 4' T8 fixtures, so a total of 8 4' T8 bulbs.

I don't know the answer, but perhaps that number of recessed cans just isn't an adequate replacement for your old light. You may have just underestimated the amount of light you'll need. The bulbs also seem pretty dim. I would have guessed you'd need bigger bulbs.

Also, are recessed cans a good choice for a garage? I haven't ever installed them.

Side note - I just bought new CFL bulbs for our bathroom. It has the frosted globe blubs above the mirror. I bought the ecosmart bulbs from HD and they are junk. They're getting returned soon.

 

[ishiboo]

The HD EcoSmart LEDs recessed retrofits are fantastic. I am not sure if it would solve your problem - 9 does not seem like enough for a garage. My kitchen is 18x20 and I have 7 of the 6" LEDs, under-cabinet lighting, over-cabinet lighting, a hanging fixture over the kitchen table plus pendant lights.

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

Did you crunch the numbers beforehand to calculate light output between the old and new systems? A 65w equivalent is pretty dim for a garage, from my limited experience.

No calculations.

Tipsy

 

[BMcC]

I picked up a 200 watt equivalent VFL daylight bulb and once it warms up it puts out a lot of light. It still doesn't use as many watts as a 60. Once there's a LED that puts out that much, I'll probably pick one of those up, I just haven't seen them yet.

 

[SMKS]

I just did a little number crunching. I'm no lighting expert, so anyone here feel free to correct me if I'm off base.

So, here's what you have now:
16 watt bulb x 43 lumens per watt x 9 bulbs = 6,192 lumens

Here's a rough guess of what you had before, using this T12 bulb as an example. I just chose a standard T12 bulb from the HD website:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...-1&keyword=4ft+t12&storeId=10051#.UOHDEfUQVq0

40 watt bulb x 65 lumens per watt x 4 bulbs = 10,400 lumens

So, if my math is correct (which it may not be), you have gone backwards.

 

[SMKS]

You could try something like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...rizontal1-3-_-NA-_-203252142-_-N#.UOHExfUQVq0

That would be:
2800 lumens per bulb x 9 bubls = 25,200 lumens

That may even be too much, but I don't know. It does shows that going to a bigger bulb will probably help, and be a lot cheaper than the LED retrofit.

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

I just did a little number crunching. I'm no lighting expert, so anyone here feel free to correct me if I'm off base.

So, here's what you have now:
16 watt bulb x 43 lumens per watt x 9 bulbs = 6,192 lumens

Here's a rough guess of what you had before, using this T12 bulb as an example. I just chose a standard T12 bulb from the HD website:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...-1&keyword=4ft+t12&storeId=10051#.UOHDEfUQVq0

40 watt bulb x 65 lumens per watt x 4 bulbs = 10,400 lumens

So, if my math is correct (which it may not be), you have gone backwards.

Thanks. I'm sure the layout of the nine cans can produce adequate lighting. I'm just not sure if I should make another attempt with CFL's or if I need to bite the bullet and buy the LED's.

The same day, my buddy installed six 3" dimmable LED cans in my bedroom. Granted, my bedroom is a smaller space than the garage but I'm very impressed with the light these units produce. My bedroom is now very well lit.

Tipsy

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

I installed 8 can lights and 2 spot light fixtures in a 20 x 30 work area of my shop as well as two 30' strips of t-8 two bulb florescent fixtures. In the can and spot light fixtures I have those 65watt CFl flood bulbs. I hardly ever turn on my t-8 lights and am very pleased with the cfl's once they warm up. Maybe you need a couple more cans?

 

[kmacht]

What's wrong with a good old regular lightbulb. With all the money you are spending on cfl and led bulbs it will be years before you break even on the electric bill.

Keith

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

You could try something like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...rizontal1-3-_-NA-_-203252142-_-N#.UOHExfUQVq0

I had seen those. The R30's are the same spiral type bulbs but they are "inside" a flood lamp housing. My understanding is that the "R" in R30 means reflector, so the housing is supposed to reflect the light down.

But with a much brighter bulb, the baffle in the can will probably work well enough at distributing the light without a reflector-type bulb.

Tipsy

 

[e30bradley]

say you have a light that says max. 60 watt, can I put a cfl in it that uses up to 60 watts of power even though its equivalent to much more light than a 60 watt halogen?

 

[ishiboo]

You could try something like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...rizontal1-3-_-NA-_-203252142-_-N#.UOHExfUQVq0

That would be:
2800 lumens per bulb x 9 bubls = 25,200 lumens

That may even be too much, but I don't know. It does shows that going to a bigger bulb will probably help, and be a lot cheaper than the LED retrofit.

With recessed cans, a twist bulb is not going to distribute light effectively whatsoever. He needs CFL floods.

 

[Jagmandave]

Do you all like the quality of light you get from CFLs?

I tried one that was supposed to be the equivalent of a 100 watt bulb in my trouble light and I found it just almost worthless......it made plenty of brightness - so much so that looking at the bulb was very annoying, but it doesn't seem to throw the light as far as the old incandescents do - it may just be me but I couldn't see a damn thing with it and put a regular 100watt bulb back in.......I sure liked that I didn't get burned with the CFL tho....

 

[cj7365]

I havent "bought" into the CFL thing at all, it is a joke in my opinion, when I built my house I have about 8 of the recessed lights, I went ahead and just install a "conventional" bulb I believe they are 60 watts, the light is great, the CFL are too expensive and made in china

 

[ishiboo]

say you have a light that says max. 60 watt, can I put a cfl in it that uses up to 60 watts of power even though its equivalent to much more light than a 60 watt halogen?

Yes. The watt rating relates to both the wiring/socket's electrical capacity in the fixture, and more importantly the heat dissipation capability. A 60W CFL will put out less heat than a 60W incandescent, and use the same amount of power... so that's fine.

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

What's wrong with a good old regular lightbulb. With all the money you are spending on cfl and led bulbs it will be years before you break even on the electric bill.

Keith

Yeah, but those are so last century

Honestly, I really like the color of the LED lights. I thought the "daylight" CFL's would be similar. They probably are but they're just not bright enough.

Tipsy

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

... the CFL are too expensive and made in china

The Commercial Electric housings are made in China. And so is just about everlasting else sold at Home Depot.

Well, I'm in Dubai at the moment and it's getting close to midnight, so I'm going to go find a good place to watch the fireworks.

Please keep the comments coming!

Tipsy

 

[ishiboo]

Yeah, but those are so last century

Honestly, I really like the color of the LED lights. I thought the "daylight" CFL's would be similar. They probably are but they're just not bright enough.

Tipsy

The EcoSmart LEDs have a great color, but you're right... I have a CFL in a 4" can (only one) next to 4" LED trims and the color rendition is quite close between the two, with the CFL being actually slightly warmer. "Daylight" on the other hand is a good 2000-2500K "bluer" than the EcoSmart LEDs... they aim to provide a warmer look of halogen which is what I prefer.

There are 23W CFL floods, perhaps one of them would fit in your fixtures?

 

[Jeff]

I didn't use cans when I added CFL's to my shop.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What's wrong with a good old regular lightbulb. With all the money you are spending on cfl and led bulbs it will be years before you break even on the electric bill.

Actually, no. 2-5 years tops. And a lot of that is because CFLs last a lot longer than incandescent bulbs.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Is it worth stepping up to 95w or 120w equivalent R40 CFL's? The warm-up time is annoying but if the end result is worth it, I can live with two to three minute wait. CFL's are about $11 each vs. $40 each for the LED retrofits.

Go with the R40 120W.

 

[kmacht]

Actually, no. 2-5 years tops. And a lot of that is because CFLs last a lot longer than incandescent bulbs.

Maybe if the cfls he bought worked but factoring their cost plus the cost of the led's he now wants instead and you will never see a decent payback. I also don't believe that cfl bulbs last longer. Buy a decent incandescent and it will last for years. I put new incadescents
in my house when I bought it 10 years ago and have only had to replace two that were attached to a ceiling fan that vibrates when running

Keith

 

[Highbeam]

Cans in the garage was the first mistake. The total lumen output of the new bulbs being way less than your old lights was the second mistake.

Best chance of recovery now is to use R bulbs in your cans with more total output than you had, actually go significantly higher if it is cost effective. Maybe even add more cans to get adequate output.

As far as cost, the regular t-8 fixture is the cheapest lumens per dollar because they are so dang efficient. Tubes beat CFLs by a wide margin.

I'm not sold on the CFLs being so much cheaper due to life expectancy. I have never replaced so many bulbs as I do now that I have switched to CFL. In my home I have low ceilings and cans with the ecosmart CFL R bulbs in them. The light is very good once they warm up but the warm up period is ridiculous. They are purple for several minutes.

 

[SMKS]

I've only had real problems with the Ecosmart bulbs from HD. They seem to be junk.

Otherwise, I've had much longer life and good performance from the other CFL bulbs I've used. In the last 7 or 8 years I think I may have only had 1 or 2 CFLs fail, and I have quite a lot of CFLs.

 

[jvitez]

Can lights are for looks not for even illumination.

Yes, you can get even illumination with cans but you need a lot of them, properly spaced, with the correct bulbs. Not worth the hassle IMO but since you've already done it you're stuck.

You need reflector type bulbs with the proper lumen output. I would put PAR38 bulbs in. Me, I'd put halogen PAR38's as you can go up to 120 watts which will be nice and bright, but the highest output CFL's I could quickly find are 23 watt (75 watt equiv.):

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/2763/FC23-PAR3850K.html

LED's? All depends on lumen output and cost.

PAR (parabolic aluminized reflector) bulbs beam more of the light forward in a more even pattern than R (reflector) type bulbs. BR (bulbous reflector) bulbs are even more diffused.

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

Cans in the garage was the first mistake. The total lumen output of the new bulbs being way less than your old lights was the second mistake.

Thanks for your thoughts. Cans were a conscious decision. I plan to keep a kayak and lumber, etc. near the ceiling and I didn't want to risk breaking fluorescent tubes.

LED's? All depends on lumen output and cost.

PAR (parabolic aluminized reflector) bulbs beam more of the light forward in a more even pattern than R (reflector) type bulbs. BR (bulbous reflector) bulbs are even more diffused.

I was looking at these but I might just try a R40 125w equivalent CFL. The warm-up time is a trade-off but if they're anywhere near twice as bright as the 65w equivalent bulbs I now have, there will be more than enough light.

It's 2013 here in Dubai. Happy New Year

Tipsy

 

[#1SomeGuy]

CFL's are great...my entire house short of a couple dimmable/trilight spots and a few LED's in the kitchen are all on CFL's. I have yet to replace a single one of them in the 3 years I've been here and there is a mix of different types of bulbs from different manufacturers, including super cheap ones, so it's not like I've just got one good batch. CFL's save you in multiple ways, firstly is less energy for equal light output, second being you really shouldn't have to replace them as often, and third and most overlooked is that they produce less heat and therefore during the summer months save big on air conditioning.

In the single bay garage I have 4 x 100 watt equivalent bulbs and they do a decent job of lighting things up.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Can lights are for looks not for even illumination.

Yes, you can get even illumination with cans but you need a lot of them, properly spaced, with the correct bulbs. Not worth the hassle IMO but since you've already done it you're stuck.

You need reflector type bulbs with the proper lumen output. I would put PAR38 bulbs in. Me, I'd put halogen PAR38's as you can go up to 120 watts which will be nice and bright, but the highest output CFL's I could quickly find are 23 watt (75 watt equiv.):

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/2763/FC23-PAR3850K.html

^^^THIS^^^

I really don't understand the can light thing in a garage. Its a frickin garage, not a new car showroom. As already noted, you may get the coverage of light with cans, but you're gonna need a lot of them, as the light is so focused.

There are all kinds of fluorescent fixtures, plain open strips to fancy ones with lenses and reflectors, that would do better than can lights at distributing the light in a work area.

Charles

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

I really don't understand the can light thing in a garage. Its a frickin garage...

I plan to keep a kayak and lumber, etc. near the ceiling and I didn't want to risk breaking fluorescent tubes.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Tipsy

 

[toyville]

I prefer the look of can lights and the fact nothing mounted lower then the ceiling, no worries of beaking bulbs. I have all old T12 light in my shop and my attched garage. I'm thinking of switching to cans and the Feit LED bulbs from Costco. With the instant rebate they are selling for 5.99 in washington state. When you add the price of the pot light housings from HD its a preatty cheap option that looks great in the end. I'm still trying to figure out how were and how many I will need. Garage is 22 x24 so i was thinking 3 rows of 4 or 5. the shop I have 2 areas under the mezzanine that are 50 x 16 and Im thinking 2 rows of 10.

 

[W-Cummins]

Actually, no. 2-5 years tops. And a lot of that is because CFLs last a lot longer than incandescent bulbs.

I'm not sold on the CFLs being so much cheaper due to life expectancy. I have never replaced so many bulbs as I do now that I have switched to CFL. In my home I have low ceilings and cans with the ecosmart CFL R bulbs in them. The light is very good once they warm up but the warm up period is ridiculous. They are purple for several minutes.

I have found that using CF's in cans trashes a lot of bulbs, the cans cook the **** out of the ballasts. I can run the same reflector bulbs in my old style barn/warehouse fixtures and they live for years ( only replaced one in 8+ years and run them 18hrs a day or so). The fixtures have flow through cooling and unlike the cans don't seem to cook the bulbs. I'm lucky to get 8-9 months out of the same bulbs in cans.

William....

 

[eljefino]

Did you mention how low the ceiling was? If it's 8-9 foot the lights will go dim-bright-dim while you're walking and you'll have your own shadows darting all over the place as you move... adding to the annoyance.

If you have light painted ceilings and want to keep it looking nice I'd work on side wall lights that shine up and reflect down, you can protect T8s with flower box/ coffin type rigging. Also good task lighting if you can put gooseneck stuff on or over your bigger woodworking tools and benches.

 

[indyokie]

I"ll be adding can lights in my garage for the same reason metioned- breakage.
I have kids and expect a stray football, basketball etc to get thrown around.
A 6 foot long bulb breaking isn't my idea of fun. I'll just put in more cans ( LED ) and switches as I can justify cost.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Do you all like the quality of light you get from CFLs?

I tried one that was supposed to be the equivalent of a 100 watt bulb in my trouble light and I found it just almost worthless......it made plenty of brightness - so much so that looking at the bulb was very annoying, but it doesn't seem to throw the light as far as the old incandescents do - it may just be me but I couldn't see a damn thing with it and put a regular 100watt bulb back in.......I sure liked that I didn't get burned with the CFL tho....

Yes I do. -and I am getting older and my eyesight is getting worse and worse. I do agree that the OP needs reflector type cfl bulbs in his can lights.

I wouldn't ever put one in a trouble light housing though! They are delicate and break fairly easily AND they contain a fair amount of mercury. I just would't want one breaking onto my face while I'm working under a car or something...

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

Menards had 2 pack led retrofits made by TCP for can lights a while back...

No Menards in FL. Good info for those in the midwest, though.

Did you mention how low the ceiling was? If it's 8-9 foot the lights will go dim-bright-dim while you're walking and you'll have your own shadows darting all over the place as you move... adding to the annoyance.

Garage ceiling is about 10 feet and is popcorn covered drywall.

The more thought I give this, the more I'm thinking about trying LED bulbs...not the retrofit for the cans but replacement bulbs. No warm-up wait and based on my experience with the small 4" LED cans in my bedroom, impressive light output. Kobi makes R30 and R40 replacements that seem to get very good reviews. They will soon be introducing a 1600 lumen R40. They currently have available 1100 lumen R40's and R30's in 5000K.

The only review I read that gives me pause was this; I have 8 of these lights in a covered area outside. After several weeks I noticed the lights looking dimmer and after taking them down, the fins are open where the plastic lens is attached. Man, the bugs are attracted to the LEDS inside where they die and fall inside the bulb and the plastic lens collects them. Useless, useless, useless. If you are going to use LEDS outside make sure they are sealed.

The above reviewer was located in Tampa, as am I. The plastic covering on the old florescent fixture I recently removed had a good number of dead bugs accumulated.

Tipsy

 

[elav]

I have a similar size garage and used the formulas in this article to calculate the desired lumens: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey

Based on this I added 80,000 lumens in my garage and I love the amount of light it provides. I did this by adding 4x 8' fixtures, each with 4 T5 HO 54W bulbs. Each bulb is good for 5,000 lumens, so 20,000 lumens per light fixture. It wasn't cheap but it turns out it cost less than going with a T8 bulb equivalent as I would need 8 of those fixtures for the same light output. Interested in how others are figuring out how much light they need.

 

[wssix99]

Please keep the comments coming

You need to do the lumen calculations. Period. Lumens is the measure of light and guessing will just get you into another jam.

This is electrician 101 stuff. You should smack your friend who told you that you were getting more light!