CFL's...Learned Something

[ddawg16]

I'm going through all the prints on my 2-story addition....

Here in California we have something called Title 24...which is basically a set of effeciency standards that houses have to meet....one of the big one's referes to lighting.

There are basically 2 types of lighting...HIGH EFFICACY LUMINAIRES and LOW EFFICACY LUMINAIRES. Basically, if it's an incandescent bulb....it's Low Efficacy.

Important part here....a fixture with an Edison socket, regardless of what is plugged into it, is considered a Low Efficacy light.

Not all is lost.....there is what is called the GU24 socket....take that same fixture, put in a GU24 socket and you have a High Efficacy light....except you have to use a CFL with GU24 end. Here is a link to some examples.

http://www.turolight.com/Turolight_SS_pdfs/Vision24SS.pdf

The CFL GU24 is really the same CFL we see at HD...but with the GU24 end.

What is interesting is that I don't think I have ever seen any CFL's with the GU24 end.....I am starting to plan the lighting for my addition and I don't want to make mistakes.

My only concern right now is that CFL's with Edison (screw in) sockets are the norm (I guess so people can use existing lights). I'm going to guess that the same CFL with a GU24 socket is going to cost a lot more.

Time to do some research....

 

[Displaced Hokie]

That is interesting, but I'm not sure I'd want to equip my home with what might be an "oddball" fixture. I don't see the current fixture going away anytime soon. Is there an advantage to using the GU24? Tax break? Etc?

You know this will end up being a CFL bitchfest, so I'll start it. I replaced all (17) of the can light bulbs in my house w/ CFL's. They have made a difference in keeping the house cooler and have lowered the bill. However, here we are 8 months in and two of them are acting up. Ticks me off. I've been though (5) CFL's in that 8 months in various parts of the house. Longer life my ****.

 

[Teken]

Don't for see that type of fixture taking hold in mass. Too much production, money, and existing homes built and using the common fixture.

Not on your life . . .

 

[mrb]

one thing worth noting, when calculating load you have to go based on the max rating of the fixture not the lamp you install. You have to count a 75W can as 75w even if you will use 13W CFL in it.

also dont put too many CFL on one circuit due to current spike from poor PF. In another thread here (that guy had his breakers rattling from the current spikes) I put a ammeter with peak hold on a 13W CFL and measured current spikes of ~1.2 amps

another thing to consider is using true fluorescent cans that take a PL type lamp and have the ballast in the fixture. Better power factor, better for the environment, and longer lamp life. Thats what I did in my kitchen to comply with title 24 and could not have been happier.

 

[mrb]

the point of the GU24 base is a low max wattage for the fixture. Its not oddball, its standard and we will see more and more of it.

 

[Teken]

the point of the GU24 base is a low max wattage for the fixture. Its not oddball, its standard and we will see more and more of it.

Unless the savings are huge compared to a standard CFL. Don't see it taking hold unless its mandated for new / retrofit reno's and newly built homes.

American's are cheap . . . The masses will not buy into this unless the initial costs, and the long term savings are there.

Or the ROI is very short . . .

 

[aar0s]

doing good to get some of the good ol boys around here to switch to the "curly que" lights over the regular soft whites, much less get them to change to a new socket. I can understand why they would want that in CA given the population density and all.

 

[BTC]

I just bought some lights for a house I'm building. Most of them are standard sockets, but the lights I wanted for my bathrooms weren't in stock with standard sockets, so I got the Energy Star rated equivalents. I'm guessing they have GU24 sockets. The standard fixtures were about $50 and the GU24 fixtures were about $80.

 

[mrb]

Unless the savings are huge compared to a standard CFL. Don't see it taking hold unless its mandated for new / retrofit reno's and newly built homes.

American's are cheap . . . The masses will not buy into this unless the initial costs, and the long term savings are there.

Or the ROI is very short . . .

we have these stupid BS energy codes which limit the wattage of light in certain places. For example your kitchen has to have fluorescent lighting. If you want incandescent on the ceiling you can do that call it accent lighting and put fluorescents under the counter (may have changed, you used to be able to do that)

 

[Greatbear]

The selection of GU24 lighting is much more limited compared to Edison base CFL and LED. If you have a choice between two identical fixtures aside from the base style, get the cheaper Edison base one and install a energy saving bulb of your choice. Unless the installation of new and retrofit fixtures requires a GU24 model, why not?

 

[mrb]

The selection of GU24 lighting is much more limited compared to Edison base CFL and LED. If you have a choice between two identical fixtures aside from the base style, get the cheaper Edison base one and install a energy saving bulb of your choice. Unless the installation of new and retrofit fixtures requires a GU24 model, why not?

his new install does require the GU24 type

 

[ddawg16]

his new install does require the GU24 type

Correct.....I can't install Edison type fixtures.

Actually....the only thing that pisses me off is that the big box stores like HD and Lowes only have the Edison type recessed cans....at least that is all I have seen. As the customer, you go in there to buy new lighting...and when you see that as you only option...you assume it's ok. There is not even a sign explaining that maybe the user should consider the GU24 for new construction.....chances are they will install the Edison cans and find out the hard way when the inspector tells them it's wrong.

On a good note...converting to GU24 is not a big deal....looks like I could take my existing Edison cans and replace just the Edison socket with the GU24 socket. I just have a **** load of CFL's to use up....

Not sure why some people have bad luck with CFL's. I had one CFL go bad when I put in the 16 cans in my garage 2 years ago....the one that went bad was an old one that I had already been using for a few years. No failures since.

My house is full of CFL's....garage is all CFL.....and I have 2 4-bulb boxes of PAR CFL lamps in the cabinet....not sure I'll ever use them....

MRB....remember me talking about putting lights in my crawl space? I'm thinking of getting some boxes...installing an Edison socket on it....and mounting those to the blocking between the floor joists and stuffing some of those PAR lamps in there. The joists would protect the bulb and I would have a use for the bulbs.

See any code issues with that?

 

[Norcal]

Correct.....I can't install Edison type fixtures.

Actually....the only thing that pisses me off is that the big box stores like HD and Lowes only have the Edison type recessed cans....at least that is all I have seen. As the customer, you go in there to buy new lighting...and when you see that as you only option...you assume it's ok. There is not even a sign explaining that maybe the user should consider the GU24 for new construction.....chances are they will install the Edison cans and find out the hard way when the inspector tells them it's wrong.

On a good note...converting to GU24 is not a big deal....looks like I could take my existing Edison cans and replace just the Edison socket with the GU24 socket. I just have a **** load of CFL's to use up....

Not sure why some people have bad luck with CFL's. I had one CFL go bad when I put in the 16 cans in my garage 2 years ago....the one that went bad was an old one that I had already been using for a few years. No failures since.

My house is full of CFL's....garage is all CFL.....and I have 2 4-bulb boxes of PAR CFL lamps in the cabinet....not sure I'll ever use them....

MRB....remember me talking about putting lights in my crawl space? I'm thinking of getting some boxes...installing an Edison socket on it....and mounting those to the blocking between the floor joists and stuffing some of those PAR lamps in there. The joists would protect the bulb and I would have a use for the bulbs.

See any code issues with that?

Your floor needs to be insulated. That may the fly in your ointment.

 

[Lotek]

My brother just finished remodeling his house, he's an electrician, he had these really cheap and ugly gu24 fixtures in places, I asked him what that was about. "Just for passing final inspection, the real fixtures are in the garage" He said that goes on a lot.

 

[bczygan]

I don't understand why you people in CA let the state tell you what to do. And I'm pissed when CA standards get adopted nationwide. I will not comply.

 

[draglink]

I have never, ever had a CFL fail.....


.....because I refuse to use them

 

[W_A_Watson_II]

doing good to get some of the good ol boys around here to switch to the "curly que" lights over the regular soft whites, much less get them to change to a new socket. I can understand why they would want that in CA given the population density and all.

Don't forget, IL is the little CA state, we follow CA way too soon and close.

 

[Falcon67]

My brother just finished remodeling his house, he's an electrician, he had these really cheap and ugly gu24 fixtures in places, I asked him what that was about. "Just for passing final inspection, the real fixtures are in the garage" He said that goes on a lot.

It's the way people in the real world work out dealing with those charged with enforcing standards cooked up by a small set of people that seem to be really out of touch with that real world thing. I don't have any issue with flo lights or CFLs, but I do with things like Title 24, etc. Who TF decided that a change in the mounting base made the same basic item "better". Makes no sense.

Subchapter 7, starts on page 136 if you want to see the details about "Low Rise Residential". You'd think states would have run out of money to chase this stuff.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2008publications/CEC-400-2008-001/CEC-400-2008-001-CMF.PDF

 

[Lotek]

I don't understand why you people in CA let the state tell you what to do. And I'm pissed when CA standards get adopted nationwide. I will not comply.

Those people have taken over state govt. and have rigged the system to stay in power, the rest of us are busy trying to make a living and only find out about this kind of **** when they spring it on us as a fait accompli. Sneaky bastiches. One of these days...

 

[ddawg16]

I'm not sure I agree with the dislike of new standards.....

Almost all of my lighting is CFL or fluorescent of some type....I like the fact that my electric bill ranges from $40 in the summer to about $60 in the winter....I like the fact that I have not had to climb on a chair to replace a buld in about 2 years....and the last one was to take out an incandescent.

People ***** about the standards in California making their way East....well...maybe because it's a bette way.

People ***** about the smog laws....well...It's been a long time since there was a smog alert in LA....and it's now rare that I can't see downtown LA from my house that is over 20 miles away....but yet, when I fly into DFW on a clear summer day, I can't see either Dallas or Ft Worth because of the brown haze over the area.....and there are no mountains there to sock it in.

I don't understand why you people in CA let the state tell you what to do. And I'm pissed when CA standards get adopted nationwide. I will not comply.

I bet there are a lot of things you don't 'comply' with....I think it's best you stay in Detroit.

As I said earlier....my only ***** is that HD and Lowes are selling stuff that you can't use for new construction.....If I had not done some research....I would have ended up buying the wrong stuff.

 

[mrb]

Who TF decided that a change in the mounting base made the same basic item "better". Makes no sense.

the change in mounting base is to keep you from putting other types of lamps in. I dont like it but it makes complete sense. Before the GU24 fluorescent stuff came out you had to use other types of fluorescent, these are more convenient and cheaper although i prefer the 'real' fluorescent cans to ones that take CFL.

 

[Zeke]

Changing the base in a fixture will not comply with UL ratings. The inspector may not catch it, but if there is a fire, the ins co will.

I like the new base. It's easy to change lamps. However, CFL's are on the way out and LED's are coming in a big way. Will the LED lamp have the new 2-pin base? Who knows.

Most of my lighting is not in the ceiling, so I prefer dimmed incandescent. When dimmed, they last for years. I've got some that come on every night and I can't remember ever replacing them.

Outside, I do not have one incandescent. Halogen or CFL.

 

[draglink]

People ***** about the standards in California making their way East....well...maybe because it's a bette way.

LMFAO........yeah probably so...thank god yall figured it out....thank you for screwin....I mean saving the rest of us


Im so glad Im as east as I can get....keep your rules and mandates and bankrupt governments west please



Side note-- congrats on 6000 posts

 

[Falcon67]

People ***** about the smog laws....well...It's been a long time since there was a smog alert in LA....and it's now rare that I can't see downtown LA from my house that is over 20 miles away....but yet, when I fly into DFW on a clear summer day, I can't see either Dallas or Ft Worth because of the brown haze over the area.....and there are no mountains there to sock it in.

That's heavy duty high pressure with no shore breeze to kill it off. Tarrant/Dallas county has nearly the same BS smog check deal as you guys, just without CARB, BAR, etc, etc. Looks to me like LA County is still on the list of non-attainment areas, so no - you don't have better ideas, just more BS bureaucracy. Them Austin TNRCC boys know if they go out into deep west Texas and start pullin' some of that big city pollution **** they might not see Austin again.

Tarrant Co
8-Hr Ozone Dallas-Fort Worth, TX - Serious


Los Angeles Co
8-Hr Ozone * Los Angeles South Coast Air Basin, CA - Extreme
8-Hr Ozone * Los Angeles-San Bernardino Cos(W Mojave),CA - Moderate
Lead 2008 * Los Angeles County-South Coast Air Basin, CA - Nonattainment
PM-10 * Los Angeles South Coast Air Basin, CA - Serious
PM-2.5 1997 * Los Angeles-South Coast Air Basin, CA - Nonattainment
PM-2.5 2006 * Los Angeles-South Coast Air Basin, CA - Nonattainment

 

[wssix99]

Wow - This is great. (I haven't seen these yet.) Lot's of upside here in that the GU24 bulbs are shorter (you'll be able to get them in tighter spaces) and many are 2 piece ones that have a re-usable ballast. So, this will make them much less expensive than the old style ones.

For those of you complaining about this - you can thank George Bush: (Insert your own political commentary here - preferably on another forum.) http://www.energystar.gov/ia/products/lighting/cfls/downloads/EISA_Backgrounder_FINAL_4-11_EPA.pdf


This is old - but there is good info here: http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/downloads/meetings/GU24LampDevelopments_Shiller.pdf


This is all something that everyone will need to get used to. Starting at the end of this year, we won't even be able to buy some of the regular incandescent bulbs any more.

Technologically, its like moving from the horse to the automobile. Its early in the evolution, but if you do it right - you'll end up happy. Buying an incandescent bulb at this point is penny wise but pound foolish. I've already switched most of my bulbs and:
- They have paid for themselves in the first year.
- My rooms are cooler due to the reduced heat.
- My existing fixtures are brighter because I can put CFL's in that produce more light than the maximum wattage incandescents.
- I haven't had to change a single light bulb in 2 years.


IMO, the biggest mistake anyone can make is to buy these from a local store. If you go to a place like 1800bulbs.com, you can get them for half the price, in any configuration, (including GU24) and any color temperature you want. If anything, its harder to pick out a CFL because there are more choices compared to incandescent bulbs. If you get a good CFL bulb, they start up right away and are indistinguishable from an incandescent bulb.

I'm getting ready to build a new house and will look at putting these in. I really like the shorter base and I look forward to never having to remove an Edison socket from a broken bulb again!

 

[Falcon67]

>I look forward to never having to remove an Edison socket from a broken bulb again!
Now there's a point I hadn't considered. Good thread, always learn something!

 

[VHF]

So with GU24 socket the ballest is still part of the bulb assembly the same as with a screw-in CFL? The up side would be that presumably any high-efficency bulb could be used in the future, including LED as the technology improves and prices fall.

There are can lights that only take a small U-shape florescent bulb with a 2- or 4-pin connector. I believe the ballest is built into the fixture. These seem to be used a lot in commercial work and I thought also in California for Title 24 compliant residential. Seems like better/brighter light than typical CFLs, and possibly a better quality ballest if it is built into the fixture, but the downside would be these probably couldn't be used with LEDs in the future.

 

[W_A_Watson_II]

The GU24 socket appears to be a CFL Socket, but i do see LED lights with the same socket for sale. What is a GU24 base and how is it related to CFLs?

 

[sdowney717]

IMO, that new style base is just a way of forcing you to use energy efficient cfl type of bulb.
nothing is wrong with an edison bulb base and putting in a cfl, they just must legislate everyone and everything, what has happened to common sense, will the government be holding your hand at your end of life also?
Its the law of laws at work.

 

[ptschram]

.I like the fact that I have not had to climb on a chair to replace a buld in about 2 years....and the last one was to take out an incandescent.

I bet there are a lot of things you don't 'comply' with....I think it's best you stay in Detroit.

My father was an industrial lighting salesman. I bought his house in 2000. There were incandescent bulbs in that house that he installed in 1982 when he started selling light bulbs. Those same bulbs were in the house and burning brightly when I sold the house in 2007.

When you buy cheap bulbs, you get cheap bulbs.

As for not complying, I refuse to comply with the I-9 requirements as an employer. It's not my job to enforce immigration requirements, it's the federal government's. What other jobs of theirs do they want me to do for them that they refuse to do?

Most of my lighting is not in the ceiling, so I prefer dimmed incandescent. When dimmed, they last for years. I've got some that come on every night and I can't remember ever replacing them.

Lowering the voltage to an incandescent lamp can extend its life nearly infinitely. The bulbs my father sold were rated for 150 volts, thus they lasted much longer.

One of the things that is overlooked when these laws were passed is that many commercial buildings do not have heating units, or have under-sized heating units as the architects expected them to be lit 24/7 by incandescent bulbs. One of the largest shopping malls in Indiana, Glenbrook Mall in Fort Wayne has limited heating capacity for those reason.

 

[W_A_Watson_II]

... they just must legislate everyone and everything, what has happened to common sense, will the government be holding your hand at your end of life also?
Its the law of laws at work.

How Many People Does It Take to Change a CFL Light Bulb?
How Many Hazmat Suits Does It Take to Change a Light Bulb?
How Many Environmentalists Does it Take to Change a Light Bulb?
How Many Congressmen Does It Take to Change a Light Bulb?


The answer: No one knows, as the Government is still writing the laws and regulations and have yet to determine what the license will be called and what the fee will be to obtain the license. Oh and then you have to pay the private companies a cource fee before you can even apply for the license.

 

[wssix99]

So with GU24 socket the ballest is still part of the bulb assembly the same as with a screw-in CFL? The up side would be that presumably any high-efficency bulb could be used in the future, including LED as the technology improves and prices fall.

There are can lights that only take a small U-shape florescent bulb with a 2- or 4-pin connector. I believe the ballest is built into the fixture. These seem to be used a lot in commercial work and I thought also in California for Title 24 compliant residential. Seems like better/brighter light than typical CFLs, and possibly a better quality ballest if it is built into the fixture, but the downside would be these probably couldn't be used with LEDs in the future.

Exactly. The GU24 gets rid of the extra length of the Edison socket needed for the vacuum tube. With a flat socket, you can use whatever future technology any alien visitors (or the State of California) might bestow upon us.

BTW - The CFL thing isn't so much "the Government" doing something. The utilities are driving this stuff and have been offering rebates for quite some time. Having the population switch over reduces the need for more power plants, which allows the electric utilities to keep milking us at the mandated rates. Less capital expense for power plants means that the utilities make more profit. So, the Tea Partiers love this as much as the tree huggers.

 

[wssix99]

One of the things that is overlooked when these laws were passed is that many commercial buildings do not have heating units, or have under-sized heating units as the architects expected them to be lit 24/7 by incandescent bulbs. One of the largest shopping malls in Indiana, Glenbrook Mall in Fort Wayne has limited heating capacity for those reason.

I don't think that's the case. My understanding is that the incandescent bulbs will still be available through commercial MRO houses. Just not through residential retail chains. (Of course, as production drops, the incandescent bulbs will only be made in China and will cost many times more than CFL's.)

 

[mrb]

I don't think that's the case. My understanding is that the incandescent bulbs will still be available through commercial MRO houses.

not entirely correct. rough service and other types of incandescents will still be made and sold that 'could' be used as replacements for the banned types. This problems is this: the law requires sales of these bulbs to be monitored by NEMA, and if at any point the sales double from the level when the law passed those bulbs will be restricted or banned.

 

[munkey]

There were incandescent bulbs in that house that he installed in 1982 when he started selling light bulbs. Those same bulbs were in the house and burning brightly when I sold the house in 2007.

In other words, those same bulbs were still converting 90% of their energy into waste heat and still contributing more than necessary to global warming?

I do not have an inherent right to use electricity however I please, just as I do not have the right to dump toxic chemicals into the stream that runs through my backyard.

 

[mrb]

In other words, those same bulbs were still converting 90% of their energy into waste heat and still contributing more than necessary to global warming?

I do not have an inherent right to use electricity however I please, just as I do not have the right to dump toxic chemicals into the stream that runs through my backyard.

by that logic you shouldnt have an inherent right to use as you please any product or service you purchase. I can see it now- govt: you may only buy more than 20 gallons of gas a month if you buy a prius to put it in.

look at the entire production, transportation, use, and disposing/recycling cycle of a CFL and its a pretty dirty process. Bottom line is while we should explore new technologies and have a variety of choices we as Americans do have certain civil liberties and we should be left to our own devices as to how we choose to light our homes.

 

[ddawg16]

I like the new base. It's easy to change lamps. However, CFL's are on the way out and LED's are coming in a big way. Will the LED lamp have the new 2-pin base? Who knows.

You can get LED's with the GU configuration.

As for LED's being the wave of the future....I've said it before....I don't think LED's are the holly grail of lighting....

At best, LED's are maybe 10% more effecient than a CFL at about 10x the cost...with maybe 3x the life....

A T5 fluorescent bulb is more efficient than any current LED.

LED's are great for low voltage....like the dash lights in my car...or just about any automotive light. They are great for fridge lights....as well as accent lighting in the house....

I still think the perfect light bulb is waiting to be invented.....

As for me....I will be going with GU24 fixtures....I prefer that over fluorescent fixtures with pin style bases and integral ballasts....it means that I'm stuck with that design as long as I keep the fixture. With the GU24 base, lighting can evolve without redesign of the fixture. It also give me flxibility in lighting choices....if I have some fixtures I want to install LED's into...I can....I'm not locked in.

 

[munkey]

by that logic you shouldnt have an inherent right to use as you please any product or service you purchase. I can see it now- govt: you may only buy more than 20 gallons of gas a month if you buy a prius to put it in.

You absolutely don't have a right to use any product in any manner you please. There are a large number of products that are illegal to use in a manner contrary to how the government prescribes, and there are also a large number of products that are illegal to use whatsoever.

The Prius example isn't as far-fetched as you make it sound; but, instead of tracking consumers, the government puts average mpg requirements on auto manufacturers.

we as Americans do have certain civil liberties and we should be left to our own devices as to how we choose to light our homes.

Of course we have civil liberties, and whether you want to use white, red or green bulbs in your home is none of my business. But, when your decisions negatively affect society as a whole, the situation is different. The public can have a very legitimate interest in reducing waste heat, curbing fossil fuel consumption, and lowering utility prices... even if the originating action occurs on private property.

Plus, I don't think anybody is proposing that we actually put people in jail just because they are using regular old lightbulbs!

 

[VWandDodge]

I was unaware of this new 2-prong bulb base and find it far superior to the Edison design. I am certain we've all had a bulb get stuck in a socket that was a bear to remove or even broke. I've had a CFL get stuck when I tried to unscrew it and I was sweating bullets it would break in my hand. None of this is a problem with the GU design.

The rest of you Luddites can stick with your 19th century lighting. I'm moving toward the future!

 

[Virgil Cain]

In other words, those same bulbs were still converting 90% of their energy into waste heat and still contributing more than necessary to global warming?

I do not have an inherent right to use electricity however I please, just as I do not have the right to dump toxic chemicals into the stream that runs through my backyard.

I have an inherent right to use electricity that I *buy*. What I choose to do with it is pretty much my business.