Champion R15B pump reviewa

[ffast65]

After looking at saylor beall and champion, I am likely going to buy r15b that was removed from service last year.

Is very oily and was used hard in a clean environment.
Besides rod wear, valve wear, what should I look for?
It's completely assembled including flywheel ets.

Have built many sbf, rear ends, manual and auto trans, so just need some pointers and advise.
Looking at it tonight about 8 est time.

 

[b-body-bob]

I recently had an R15B apart, that had been used since 95 in a quick oil change shop. The cylinders still had x-hatch, the rod bearing is part of the rod, not a shell, and it was fine.

The B series pump (and later I think there may be a C?) is identified b/c the disc valves are all different sizes so there is no chance of putting one back in the wrong hole.

Pull the largest valve off each stage, and use a penlight to see inside the jug. You should be able to see good enough to get an idea of condition.

The crank rides on taper bearings. The preload is set via gasket thickness behind the unloader housing.

If it's oily, the crank seal cross over numbers are 13649 (Chicago Rawhide) and 471192 (National). I had problems installing mine and tore up several seals trying and had to make a jig to get it in. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225025

If yours has a removable hand-hole, it is older than mine. If it doesn't you will need to pull the jugs to get inside the pump but I wouldn't take it apart, based on my experience.

 

[b-body-bob]

Also, you're going to want this document

http://www.flamingoshopserv.com/portals/2/news/partsbreakdown/champion r15 breakdown.pdf

It's basically everything there is to know about the R15 pumps.

 

[ffast65]

Thanks for the great information . I have the manual printed and ready for use.
The seal info is great, I'm sure I will need to change that at that min.

On the valves, are special tools required? Are they metric or English?

Want to make sure tonight I pack the right ones and not buy A boat anchor .
Whenever things get removed from service, it wasn't cause they were over performing,

Best,
Paul

 

[ffast65]

Btw, the national seal is carried by advance auto in standard and high temp versions

 

[b-body-bob]

On the valves, are special tools required? Are they metric or English?

There's two 3/8" bolts holding each intake/exhaust port down, then an alu or copper washer, and the valves. Take the port bolts out with a 9/16" and everyting lifts right out. The valves themselves come apart with either a 5/16" or 1/4" wrench but you don't need to get that crazy at this point.

I bought out all the Advance and NAPA stores here that had the seal, and ended up finding them cheap at Rock Auto before I finally got the stupid thing installed. I still don't know what I was doing wrong, they would **** in the bore and bend every time until I made that jig and pressed them in with all thread and bolts.

Was just the pump taken out of service or the whole unit? I got my VR5-8 free because the motor had gone bad and the prior owner thought it was a pump problem (which is why I took it apart - I was naive). I fixed it once, it popped the caps again, so I just bought a new motor from e-bay.

You might notice that if you turn the pump by hand it makes a noise at a certain point. If so don't jump to the conclusion it's a bearing or worse. The valves can make a funny noise because turning the pump by hand doesn't produce enough air to open them fully and they sort of chatter.

 

[ffast65]

Many thanks for the insight as the pump compressor, tank , mag starter, inter cooler, are sitting in the bed of my truck. I only wanted the pump, but a of it was soo nice it was hard to pas up.

I took out 2 of the 4 valves and found a broken spring on the exhaust one, bores looked good without scoring, just look to have Crüd on them needing a good cleaning and rebuild.

I will be buying a valve rebuild kit, a filter, and oil. Need to figure out where the oil leak is from, I suspect the crank seal you had difficulty with.

Thanks much

 

[b-body-bob]

Yeah when you're looking for a compressor and run into a Champion it's hard to say no. The things are impressive size wise that's for sure.

On the valves just be sure to note the order of assembly on the valves, or you can put them together backward DAMHIK. I used a pin spanner I had here (bicycle repair) to hold the valve body while I loosened/tightened the center screw. I took mine all apart and cleaned them up real good.

If all else fails you can figure it out by thinking about the direction of air through the valve. FWIW I never found a torque spec on the center screw that holds the valves together, but since it can't fall in the pump, I just went with "almost tight enough to strip the thing". It helps that it's tiny so you end up using tiny tools. Hard to break anything with an ignition wrench.

Another alternative would be to just replace the whole valve, they're not real expensive.

If you need parts, this guy is a great source. http://airfloinc.com/ They don't list all the parts on line, but if you call, Ken will fix you up

 

[ffast65]

While all the valves are out and need cleaned rebuilt with one broken spring, I got bigger issues. The oil has metal in it, and the high pressure piston doesn't move.
It's stuck down at the bottom of bore and there is no noise when the flywheel spins.

A roll pin was in the oil drain, and looking at the schematic, it likely from the conn rod .
The manual and parts list does not give a disassembly order.
Is it the order remove flywheel and governor than cylinder head?

Any thing to be careful of ?

 

[b-body-bob]

The roll pin is the oil slinger from the bottom of a rod cap.

Pull the jug(s) off first, then you can unbolt the rods. The "governor" is the unloader, take the cover off and there are 4-5 bolts that go back into the pump. The crank comes out to that side. The gasket between that and the crankcase are what sets the bearing pre-load so try to not tear it up until you can mic it for thickness.

Once you've got the crank out it'll have a bearing on each end and the centrifugal weights on it. As far as I could tell the centrifugal weights are pressed on the crank snout (didn't have to take it off mine).

 

[ffast65]

Thanks for the great information.
Hopefully in the next week I will get it all taken a part to assess the damage.


I'm betting on a connection rod, maybe a crank, at a min.
Good thing I have a line on another complete r15 pump for
Parts..

 

[malibu101]

I just picked up a lightly used Champion with an R15B compressor.

Does yours have the low oil level sensor like in this pic?

 

[ffast65]

thanks malibu for the pictures. Yours even has the same intercooler and low oil cut off that mine does. If only mine were together and ready to go.

Good luck with your install.

 

[Trey T]

^^Love the oil level cut-off sensor and pneumatic autodrain. How much did you get it for? Running it w/ 3phase power?

 

[malibu101]

thanks malibu for the pictures. Yours even has the same intercooler and low oil cut off that mine does. If only mine were together and ready to go.

Good luck with your install.

Did you remove or take apart the oil level cutoff?
Just wondering what's inside. Depending on complexity I may try to see why mine acts up once in awhile.

^^Love the oil level cut-off sensor and pneumatic autodrain. How much did you get it for? Running it w/ 3phase power?

Info here- http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246956

 

[ffast65]

Update to my project. My son and I decided to pull apart the pump over this weekend. The cylinder head/liner we pulled of to reveal a completely destroyed high pressure connecting rod which damaged the bottom of the high pressure piston. The crank looks scored with some nicks in the casting. The low pressure rod has lots of side to side play. The cylinder block and cylinder liner look good so far.

My questions before i call GD:

1) what are the required diameters for both crank journals?
2) what are the min and max clearances between rods and crank journals?
3) anyone know a company that machines the rods for inserts like used on a wisconsin engine or saylor beall compressor?


While I have access to another R15 pump complete., its frozen. I expect to be abe to get the rod, maybe the piston from it. Would rather use my balanced flyheel and crank if I can have the crank ground undersize and get new inserts which will meet the clearance needs.


Any ideas and thoughts are welcome

 

[b-body-bob]

Well that stinks.

Look in here, table 5-2, for answers to questions 1 and 2.
http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-5-4310-350-14.pdf

 

[ffast65]

Another update: was able to acquire a second older r15 that was outside for a few years.
After soaking the head piston assembly for the last 3
Months, I decided to cut it open with my cut off wheel.
After realizing it was too small to do any real cutting the 5 lb sledge and brick chisel came out. Instead of spliting the block, it loosened the pistons allowing me to remove the upper head.

Got a perfect high pressure piston and rod!
Was so excited that I put it on the unit with crank that was in question and crank it not undersized.

Looks like after ordering new valve kit and gasket for head to block, I will
Be done by thanksgiving!

I will put a few pictures up of the carnage and the assembled unit.

Ps. If any member needs the block, crankshaft, flywheel or unloaded, drop me a pm.

 

[malibu101]

Another update: was able to acquire a second older r15 that was outside for a few years.
After soaking the head piston assembly for the last 3
Months, I decided to cut it open with my cut off wheel.
After realizing it was too small to do any real cutting the 5 lb sledge and brick chisel came out. Instead of spliting the block, it loosened the pistons allowing me to remove the upper head.

Got a perfect high pressure piston and rod!
Was so excited that I put it on the unit with crank that was in question and crank it not undersized.

Looks like after ordering new valve kit and gasket for head to block, I will
Be done by thanksgiving!

I will put a few pictures up of the carnage and the assembled unit.

Ps. If any member needs the block, crankshaft, flywheel or unloaded, drop me a pm.

Great to hear it's going good for you!

I would love to see the pics of what an R15B looks like inside.

 

[b-body-bob]

Good news ffast, hope you have it working soon.

I would love to see the pics of what an R15B looks like inside.

There's not much to them.

 

[ffast65]

B body bob,

Great picture of the inner parts. What vintage is this unit?
The B that I'm building has the exact low pressure piston, but had a slightly different high pressure piston. My hp had 2 compression and 1 oil ring.

The older one I'm salvaging parts out of has the exact hp piston but a different lp pressure piston where it has a full round skirt.

 

[b-body-bob]

B body bob,

Great picture of the inner parts. What vintage is this unit?
The B that I'm building has the exact low pressure piston, but had a slightly different high pressure piston. My hp had 2 compression and 1 oil ring.

The older one I'm salvaging parts out of has the exact hp piston but a different lp pressure piston where it has a full round skirt.

I don't have a photo of the tank tag but IIRC it's a 1995 model.

 

[ffast65]

Re: Champion R15B pump reviews

update;

My son and I put the pump, the 7.5Hp motor, all the valves, intercooler, etc back on. The cross over tube had multiple holes and withe unions/ additional length to fix, I couldnt put the inside belt gaurd on.

Never the less after wiring it to the existing undersized motor starterm skipping the over load relays and not connecting the low oil cut off, it wouldnt start.

Since I am using the 3 phase motor starter with 240V coils, the only way I could start it was manually pressing the center button. Once running, it filled the tank from ZERO to 200 PSI in a very short time, probably under 4 minutes even though I wasnt checking.

Eitherway, once I get the right motor starter and an on/off switch, I should be golden.

IF ANY MEMBER needs an R15A crank, flywheel, low pressure piston, crankcase, please PM me.

 

[ffast65]

I just picked up a lightly used Champion with an R15B compressor.

Malibu 101 and others:

Need some additonal guidance on the operation of this compressor.
While Im still sorting out the DP motor starter, I have been overriding it to verfy proper operation.

The issue the last 2 nights has been the silver item just to the left of the pump. Imediately when I start the unit, it has been blowing the air out the copper open tube no matter what the tank pressure is. Within 1 minute of pump shutting off, it stops blowing hard.

While to took the large nut out of the unloader on the pump and cleaned the white ball like the manual suggested, it didnt change anything. What is the proper operation? should it breifly blow than stop during pumping then bleed off after pump stops?

Is the diaghragm blown in it? The garage is like 30 F, so is the oil thick so it wont allow proper unloader operation? it didnt do this when first fired up and temperature was in the 50's then.

The manual doest show a breakdown of this unit, so I can only guess whats inside it.

Thanks
Paul

 

[b-body-bob]

I just picked up a lightly used Champion with an R15B compressor.

Malibu 101 and others:

Need some additonal guidance on the operation of this compressor.
While Im still sorting out the DP motor starter, I have been overriding it to verfy proper operation.

The issue the last 2 nights has been the silver item just to the left of the pump. Imediately when I start the unit, it has been blowing the air out the copper open tube no matter what the tank pressure is. Within 1 minute of pump shutting off, it stops blowing hard.

While to took the large nut out of the unloader on the pump and cleaned the white ball like the manual suggested, it didnt change anything. What is the proper operation? should it breifly blow than stop during pumping then bleed off after pump stops?

Is the diaghragm blown in it? The garage is like 30 F, so is the oil thick so it wont allow proper unloader operation? it didnt do this when first fired up and temperature was in the 50's then.

The manual doest show a breakdown of this unit, so I can only guess whats inside it.

Thanks
Paul

Pretty sure what you're describing is a tank drain controlled by pressure at the unloader. You could just eliminate it if you can't get it working. I don't have one so that may just be the way they work but it doesn't sound right to me.

 

[mmouse]

It will blow off any air between the cylinder and tank check valve. With a large inter-cooler, that is more volume of air, so the blow-off will take a lot longer. On start up, the unloader will not seat until the pump spins up to at least 400 rpm. So, it will blow off until then. The silver diaphram that is attached to the unloader is a tank drain. I don't know exactly how it works, but it obviously uses the unloader exhaust for the drain valve. I'm guessing that it uses the blowoff pressure from the unloader to open the drain valve. So, after a pump cycle, when the pump stops spinning, the unloader exhausts all of the air between the cylinder and tank, and drains the tank at the same time.

 

[PETE BALLARD]

Another update: was able to acquire a second older r15 that was outside for a few years.
After soaking the head piston assembly for the last 3
Months, I decided to cut it open with my cut off wheel.
After realizing it was too small to do any real cutting the 5 lb sledge and brick chisel came out. Instead of spliting the block, it loosened the pistons allowing me to remove the upper head.

Got a perfect high pressure piston and rod!
Was so excited that I put it on the unit with crank that was in question and crank it not undersized.

Looks like after ordering new valve kit and gasket for head to block, I will
Be done by thanksgiving!

I will put a few pictures up of the carnage and the assembled unit.

Ps. If any member needs the block, crankshaft, flywheel or unloaded, drop me a pm.

PM sent

 

[malibu101]

I just picked up a lightly used Champion with an R15B compressor.

Malibu 101 and others:

Need some additonal guidance on the operation of this compressor.
While Im still sorting out the DP motor starter, I have been overriding it to verfy proper operation.

The issue the last 2 nights has been the silver item just to the left of the pump. Imediately when I start the unit, it has been blowing the air out the copper open tube no matter what the tank pressure is. Within 1 minute of pump shutting off, it stops blowing hard.
This is the auto tank drain. No doubt the valve inside has a bad seal. Disconnect it and leave the hole in the bottom of the unloader open.
MAKE SURE THE TANK HAS NO PRESSURE when you remove the brass fitting at the bottom where the hose goes into the tank then plug this hole.

While to took the large nut out of the unloader on the pump and cleaned the white ball like the manual suggested, it didnt change anything. What is the proper operation? should it breifly blow than stop during pumping then bleed off after pump stops?

Is the diaghragm blown in it? The garage is like 30 F, so is the oil thick so it wont allow proper unloader operation? it didnt do this when first fired up and temperature was in the 50's then.

The manual doest show a breakdown of this unit, so I can only guess whats inside it.

Thanks
Paul

On the oil level. If you are not using it the 2 wires going to it must be connected together or else the starter will not energize the coil. Just like what is being described.

 

[ffast65]

Thanks, oil level been bypassed and new starter installed so pump operates well. The autodrain is already rebuilt but due to tank holding air so well, has not been reinstalled for use.

Again, thank you for help getting this compressor in working condition.

 

[malibu101]

Thanks, oil level been bypassed and new starter installed so pump operates well. The autodrain is already rebuilt but due to tank holding air so well, has not been reinstalled for use.

Again, thank you for help getting this compressor in working condition.

GREAT to hear!!
Enjoy having enough air for almost anything a guy needs to run on air and a machine that most of your buddies will be envious of.