Cheap mini splits

[jjrbus]

Mulling this over. I am in the middle of replacing a 15 series Daikin mini split evaporator coil and perfect timing another 9k 4 year old Daikin mini is showing L5 error code! I would not replace the coil but the full heads are not available. 4 year old unit! The coil was $180 plus shipping and tax $40. I could have the coil replaced under warranty if certified bad by a Daikin tech. $150 minimun. I suspect they would ship the coil to their company and not allow me to DIY install?

The parts warranty are a joke without a labor warranty, might as well buy new unit by the time repair labor is paid!

I bought the Daikin 15 series because of the reputation of the company, parts availability etc. 12K $1100 at the time of purchase.

I can buy a Daizuki 9K 20 Seer inverter, cool only for $430. SW FL so only use heat a few days in winter or the same unit with heat for $515, both 220 volt. Something goes wrong and toss it, put in another. Maybe buy 2 and have a spare on hand?

I also put an LG 9500 inverter window unit in my RV, $500. Not a bad unit but a bit too loud for the house or could I learn to live with it? Roadtrek RV is designed for window units, not duct taped in the side window LOL

 

[jack stand]

I'm curious what the warranty was if you spent the buck's originally on a factory "certified" dealer install in comparison to where you are now?
I fully understand your situation and am not poking you about you installing and probably saving thousands.

 

[Jackfre]

Curious how this will work out for you. While Daikin doesn’t have the replacement evap, did they check their many distributors inventory to see if there is an odd one out in the system somewhere. I know in ‘06 when we made the switch to the 410A inverters that Fujitsu put together a site to allow distribution to look at and source the odd component to make up systems and flush the dead inventory. Based upon what you have been going through with this I don’t think it a mistake to take the low cost unit and see how it will do. Less frustrating I would think. AT this point you are in the “no good deed goes unpunished” situation.

 

[jjrbus]

I do not recall exact figures. I had a ball park figure of $10,000 to $12,000 To install mini splits in my house. Which from what I read is a decent price for a 1350 sq ft house. No idea of brands or number of heads ect. I spent about $4,000 on 3 mini's and tools, 2 9k and 1 12k units. Plus tons of time on the net leaning what I could. Just added a hypersonic leak detector to the tool box!

At the time I could have replaced the central air including duct work by a reputable company for $5700.The entral air handler would be in the jungle gym of trusses in the attic and would require a double jointed dwarf to install and maintain! I do not know how much I have saved on electricity with the mini's over the last 4 years but I have just recieved my first electric bill over $100 in a few years! Took a quick look, my last bill over $100 was June 2017, the central air was out and I was cooling the house with a large window ac. This in in SW FL with AC running 24/7

It would be nice if there were a site to check national inventory, I made a few phone calls and checked the net, Budget heating and cooling in Tampa contacted Daikin who claimed there were none available. The parts dept did tell me if there was a head available it would be about $500 plus shipping. Worth it?

 

[jack stand]

I couldn't advise you on that. But locally, Daiken seems to be most of the units that I see hanging on the side of houses around here. Not sure if it the local favorite or the local contractors pushing them.

 

[bonneyman]

Everything's gotten cheaper. Sales and profits over reliability.
And the typical service tech isn't trained to deal with them efficiently, and the units themselves are not made for longevity. Get past the warranty period and break so the customer has to buy another one.

You know, I just remembered the old Fedders apartment units were very much like mini-splits. With their suitcase condensers and above-the-shower evap units. Climb up on a roof and there'd be a whole line of 15-20 slender condensers in a row, buzzing away. Funny memory!

 

[b-nasty]

Everything's gotten cheaper. Sales and profits over reliability.
And the typical service tech isn't trained to deal with them efficiently, and the units themselves are not made for longevity. Get past the warranty period and break so the customer has to buy another one.

Problem is, it's not just the Asian mini splits. Almost all of the big, traditional split systems now have (or will, with new efficiency mandates next year) all the same high-tech computer boards, brushless DC fan motors and sophisticated compressors and electronic expansion devices. The days of buying some big ol American AC unit with PSC motors and the 'brains' being a $5 contactor are over. Not to mention that all of these units have been cutting cost for years: aluminum instead of copper, razor thin coil pipes, etc.

Mini splits finally bring to the US what has been true for other countries for years: HVAC units for residential are disposable appliances like everything else you'd buy at the appliance store. The units are cheap, and once they're out of warranty, not worth paying sky high labor rates to attempt to fix. Now, we just need to get cheap installs ($100-$300) for these splits like other countries have, though at least you can DIY.

 

[jjrbus]

I chose Daikin because as I did my research most of what appeared to be pro's were installing Mitsubishi, Fujitsu or Daikin. Daikin being the cheaper of the 3. Also Daikin has made a huge investment in the US, likely up around a billion dollars now. Also I had lived in Asia and everything is mini splits over there, although some of their minis are huge!

A couple years ago there were no dedicated mini installers. Now some are around. I have no idea if these are come on ad's or the quality of their work or equipment installed. I would be standing watching every move they made!

https://www.facebook.com/marketplac...wse_serp:4911a7b2-1bba-44d3-91ee-620e7fd4de9b

 

[bonneyman]

Problem is, it's not just the Asian mini splits. Almost all of the big, traditional split systems now have (or will, with new efficiency mandates next year) all the same high-tech computer boards, brushless DC fan motors and sophisticated compressors and electronic expansion devices. The days of buying some big ol American AC unit with PSC motors and the 'brains' being a $5 contactor are over. Not to mention that all of these units have been cutting cost for years: aluminum instead of copper, razor thin coil pipes, etc.

Mini splits finally bring to the US what has been true for other countries for years: HVAC units for residential are disposable appliances like everything else you'd buy at the appliance store. The units are cheap, and once they're out of warranty, not worth paying sky high labor rates to attempt to fix. Now, we just need to get cheap installs ($100-$300) for these splits like other countries have, though at least you can DIY.

Agree totally with what you've said. Though with inflation I doubt people are going to be able to afford the digital whizz units they're now pushing.

The main problem I see is the dang government mandates, artificially pushing costs up and reliability down all for the sake of gia. They've been wanting to make HVAC a disposable item for years, as a way of exercising control over that part of people's lives. I had hoped the manufacturers would have banded together and resisted the early moves in the 1990's. But they pretty much all have tucked tails and kissed the gold ring, so now we're all just in the cycle of "here's the next mandate", cough up the cash and your freedom. I seriously doubt it will be stopped now, although an ingenious manufacturer might be able to come up with a outside the box "fix".

 

[b-nasty]

A couple years ago there were no dedicated mini installers. Now some are around. I have no idea if these are come on ad's or the quality of their work or equipment installed. I would be standing watching every move they made!

Their brand (from the picture) isn't a super-common one, but it's likely just a rebadged Gree (probably) or Midea, like most are.

I'm honestly surprised there aren't more mini-only installers that charge reasonable rates for the simple, wall hung units. A big HVAC company has high rates and overhead, but they probably service resi and commercial, they have to deal with sheet metal work/flex duct work, and the units are big, awkward, and often mounted somewhere that is awful to work in (crawlspace, hot attic.) All those tools and specialty skills means a simple mini split install is subsidizing the expensive overhead, and also needs to be priced on the opportunity cost of a bigger job.

Meanwhile, a mini-only installer could get tricked out with most of the tools they need for a thousand or two. These cheaper units don't even mention vacuum decay or N2 pressure tests in their manual! Just hook it to a vac, run for 15 minutes, and let-er-rip. An out-the-wall install, especially on the first floor, could be totally buttoned up by early afternoon. Charge $700-$1000 for the unit, $300 for incidental parts, and you could easily charge $500-1000 for the labor. $1,000 for a day's work ain't bad. Yet, the bigger HVAC companies would put in a unit that costs a bit more, but then charge over $5,000 total.

 

[DL7265]

Lots of parts issues with all air con right now . 2 years ago I got a quote for a mits w 12 year warranty from Diamond dealer for $3200. Neighbor just paid twice that for a equivalent Daikin with less waranty . Crazy times . .

 

[walrus]

In Maine Daiken is big as Fujitsu's rep took a dump with non stop leaks. Mitsubishi is still the king. I am seeing Samsung now, no clue how they are. I put in a Daiken last fall, so far so good.

 

[jjrbus]

Their brand (from the picture) isn't a super-common one, but it's likely just a rebadged Gree (probably) or Midea, like most are.

I'm honestly surprised there aren't more mini-only installers that charge reasonable rates for the simple, wall hung units. A big HVAC company has high rates and overhead, but they probably service resi and commercial, they have to deal with sheet metal work/flex duct work, and the units are big, awkward, and often mounted somewhere that is awful to work in (crawlspace, hot attic.) All those tools and specialty skills means a simple mini split install is subsidizing the expensive overhead, and also needs to be priced on the opportunity cost of a bigger job.

Meanwhile, a mini-only installer could get tricked out with most of the tools they need for a thousand or two. These cheaper units don't even mention vacuum decay or N2 pressure tests in their manual! Just hook it to a vac, run for 15 minutes, and let-er-rip. An out-the-wall install, especially on the first floor, could be totally buttoned up by early afternoon. Charge $700-$1000 for the unit, $300 for incidental parts, and you could easily charge $500-1000 for the labor. $1,000 for a day's work ain't bad. Yet, the bigger HVAC companies would put in a unit that costs a bit more, but then charge over $5,000 tot

In Asia when you go into the appliance or hardware section of stores there will be a display of 10-20 mini split heads from different manufactures. Most of which we have never heard of. Many include installation with purchase price.

 

[Jackfre]

In Maine, You will see more Samsung as FW Webb has taken the line on. They were Daikin for years but Daikin bought Fall River based, Robinson Supply a couple years ago and gave the Daikin to the “company store”, so to speak.

 

[jack stand]

They (mini splits) seem to be one of the very few things that are less costly "up here" compared to the rest of the country. I helped out my daughter's in the mid Atlantic region. It seems that the contractors are stuck in the ductwork rut and are simply not very familiar with the m/s and price that uncomfortable or unfamiliarness into their bid.
There's an outfit here in Maine (Dave's world) that seemed to come out of thin air to having a very professional organization with lots of radio and television presence and multiple offices and crews. My installation was a one day job. 2 inside heads and the outside unit. Iirc it was under $6k and some of the best money I've ever spent!

 

[Jackfre]

Agree totally with what you've said. Though with inflation I doubt people are going to be able to afford the digital whizz units they're now pushing.

The main problem I see is the dang government mandates, artificially pushing costs up and reliability down all for the sake of gia. They've been wanting to make HVAC a disposable item for years, as a way of exercising control over that part of people's lives. I had hoped the manufacturers would have banded together and resisted the early moves in the 1990's. But they pretty much all have tucked tails and kissed the gold ring, so now we're all just in the cycle of "here's the next mandate", cough up the cash and your freedom. I seriously doubt it will be stopped now, although an ingenious manufacturer might be able to come up with a outside the box "fix".

The difficulty in allowing the “market” to rule these things rather than having mandated efficiency increases is that you would still be dealing with 60% efficient gas furnaces. Of course we would still have the nice old 454 V8 as well, but going up a mtn as my speed went up I could watch the gas gauge go down. In ‘92 the minimum efficiency of furnaces went to 78%. Manuf raised hell and fought it tooth and nail as in, spend your money on Lobbyists and don’t invest in innovation or efficiency. I saw it. I was there. Mini splits are the perfect example of this. I installed a Daikin in ‘78, turned it on and it was like freakin’ magic. Even to this day, with the US manuf watching the growth, did they invest in competitive development of this technology. No, and they deserve to have their collective asses kicked.

 

[jjrbus]

They (mini splits) seem to be one of the very few things that are less costly "up here" compared to the rest of the country. I helped out my daughter's in the mid Atlantic region. It seems that the contractors are stuck in the ductwork rut and are simply not very familiar with the m/s and price that uncomfortable or unfamiliarness into their bid.
There's an outfit here in Maine (Dave's world) that seemed to come out of thin air to having a very professional organization with lots of radio and television presence and multiple offices and crews. My installation was a one day job. 2 inside heads and the outside unit. Iirc it

Yup right out of no where, fancy trucks running all over town, constant TV and radio ads, slingers, all kinds of discounts for everyone, etc.

was under $6k and some of the best money I've ever spent

 

[jack stand]

Huh?
Who's that guy?

 

[b-nasty]

The main problem I see is the dang government mandates, artificially pushing costs up and reliability down all for the sake of gia.

Don't get me started on R-410a vs R-22. The higher pressures of 410 means a leak is almost inevitable, given the thin coil materials and often sloppy install procedures for brazing/flares. So, we 'save the planet' from 8 lbs of R-22 by ensuring the entire unit needs to be scrapped within 15 years. There's still 25 year old+ R22 units out there running - an almost impossible feat for 410.

Now, we're at it again. New mandates will shift many manufacturers to R-32, which runs at similar (slightly higher) pressures than 410a, but only represents a ~50% drop in global warming potential. Who here believes 50% is good enough... we'll be playing the same music chairs game again in a few years. HVAC techs are going to have no room for tools in the van with all the various gas cylinders.

IMHO, just pull the trigger and move to the hydrocarbons. They run at pressures and efficiencies much closer to R-22 (good), have almost zero GWP, and are cheap and ubiquitous with no patents/crazy manufacturing. Everyone wrings their hands over the flammability, but Cletus can buy 20lb cylinders of R290 (propane) and store them in his house, hooked up to grills/appliances with old, crusty rubber hoses, yet there's almost never any boom. Heck, we actually have pipes that can deliver hundreds of gallons of propane into many houses.

 

[jjrbus]

Huh?
Who's that guy?

Bruno from Bruno air, Same situation as you mentioned, company came out of thin air, ad's all over TV and radio, wrapped trucks running around town. He and his employees arrested for fraud!

 

[jack stand]

Ah, the company that I referenced is still hitting it hard. I did my own "cleaning" for the first 3 years and had them back for a good scrubbing year 4. They now have cleaning crews along with the other guys.

 

[jjrbus]

Ah, the company that I referenced is still hitting it hard. I did my own "cleaning" for the first 3 years and had them back for a good scrubbing year 4. They now have cleaning crews along with the other guys.

Curious what the charge is to clean a mini? The internet indicates $300 for 1 system and $100 for each additional head.

 

[jack stand]

I think it was $300 for 2. They have a fancy "bag" that hooks around everything that catches the solution and funnels it into a bucket. After watching this on both units, I like my schedule of me doing what cleaning I can for 2 years then have them back every 3rd.

 

[metlmunchr]

Meanwhile, a mini-only installer could get tricked out with most of the tools they need for a thousand or two. These cheaper units don't even mention vacuum decay or N2 pressure tests in their manual! Just hook it to a vac, run for 15 minutes, and let-er-rip. An out-the-wall install, especially on the first floor, could be totally buttoned up by early afternoon. Charge $700-$1000 for the unit, $300 for incidental parts, and you could easily charge $500-1000 for the labor. $1,000 for a day's work ain't bad. Yet, the bigger HVAC companies would put in a unit that costs a bit more, but then charge over $5,000 total.

At that point, you're a HVAC contractor and subject to all the licensing, permitting, insurance, and inspection requirements of your locality.

Given all the variables of installation conditions, electrical wiring cost to get a circuit to the unit, etc, it would be impossible to quote a job without a site visit unless you just throw out an inflated price that covers you for the worst case at every step of the process. So the decision comes down to whether you spend the time to provide a legitimate quote and get perhaps one job out of every 3 quotes, or do you just throw out a price of $5000 for any 12K unit and scale up the price from there for anything larger, with the idea that you may not get as many jobs but what you do get will be profitable and you aren't spending time on non productive quotes.

There's 2 kinds of people who try to save money. One is the type who looks for 15 quotes and the cheapest price in 10 surrounding counties. They buy on price alone but once you get the job you find most of them expect a Cadillac job for that Yugo price. The other type is the DIY person who's willing to trade sweat equity for savings. Much better folks to deal with.

Rather than deal with the first type, I'd much rather have a side gig doing pressure tests, evacuation, and startup for people who have installed their own equipment but aren't interested in spending the money for the required tools for a proper startup. Do the job, collect a reasonable fee, and walk away with no concerns of warranties or other equipment related responsibilities. At that point you're not a contractor but rather just a service provider and a universal licence for handling refrigerants is all you'd need to be legal.

 

[jjrbus]

At that point, you're a HVAC contractor and subject to all the licensing, permitting, insurance, and inspection requirements of your locality.

Given all the variables of installation conditions, electrical wiring cost to get a circuit to the unit, etc, it would be impossible to quote a job without a site visit unless you just throw out an inflated price that covers you for the worst case at every step of the process. So the decision comes down to whether you spend the time to provide a legitimate quote and get perhaps one job out of every 3 quotes, or do you just throw out a price of $5000 for any 12K unit and scale up the price from there for anything larger, with the idea that you may not get as many jobs but what you do get will be profitable and you aren't spending time on non productive quotes.

There's 2 kinds of people who try to save money. One is the type who looks for 15 quotes and the cheapest price in 10 surrounding counties. They buy on price alone but once you get the job you find most of them expect a Cadillac job for that Yugo price. The other type is the DIY person who's willing to trade sweat equity for savings. Much better folks to deal with.

Rather than deal with the first type, I'd much rather have a side gig doing pressure tests, evacuation, and startup for people who have installed their own equipment but aren't interested in spending the money for the required tools for a proper startup. Do the job, collect a reasonable fee, and walk away with no concerns of warranties or other equipment related responsibilities. At that point you're not a contractor but rather just a service provider and a universal licence for handling refrigerants is all you'd need to be legal.

The few ads I have seen do not include electric. I know that AC in Lee county FL requires a permit and in my 20 years here have seen 1 permit for AC work posted. Which brings something up, as far as I know the permit process requires a manual J. 1/2 of the people
here likely do not know what a manual J is!

 

[b-nasty]

At that point, you're a HVAC contractor and subject to all the licensing, permitting, insurance, and inspection requirements of your locality.

Rather than deal with the first type, I'd much rather have a side gig doing pressure tests, evacuation, and startup for people who have installed their own equipment but aren't interested in spending the money for the required tools for a proper startup. Do the job, collect a reasonable fee, and walk away with no concerns of warranties or other equipment related responsibilities. At that point you're not a contractor but rather just a service provider and a universal licence for handling refrigerants is all you'd need to be legal.

True, but for many areas (like PA where I live), there's nothing special about an 'HVAC Contractor'. So, besides the 608 Type 1 (open book test, $25) or at worst, the Type 2 (easy with a little study, free/<$100), you technically have all the same permit/insurance issues that a 'handyman', general contractor, or Chuck in a Truck has. At least around here, the permitting office's primary concern is the electrical portion. Which makes sense, because assuming you have your 608 (so you know better than to dump refrigerants), the only thing that can actually cause major issues/hazards is shotty electrical work.

I think you're overestimating the amount of business you'd get doing just the refrig work on a pre-installed mini, and also underestimating the headaches. The overlap of DIYers that can do a competent install up to startup but don't buy a $100 vacuum pump is likely small, and they're certainly not willing to pay you much to twiddle some hoses for a $900 mini they already did all the work to installed. Not to mention that the whole reason they're bringing in someone 'licensed' to do the startup is to activate the warranty. When their install poops out, guess who they're going to want to call to diagnose it for the manufacturer?

If you're going to touch a DIY install at all, you might as well do the whole thing. There's a reason most HVAC shops won't touch a DIY for startup/service work, and you're throwing away all the business of someone that wants a mini, at a reasonable install rate, that can't drill a hole in their wall.

 

[jjrbus]

I think it was $300 for 2. They have a fancy "bag" that hooks around everything that catches the solution and funnels it into a bucket. After watching this on both units, I like my schedule of me doing what cleaning I can for 2 years then have them back every 3rd.

Thanks for the response. I did the bag thing and found that afterwards the mini was vibrating. Not severely but could be felt by putting my hand on it. I am in SW FL with constant running and high humidity so mold finds a nice home on the blower wheel. So now I remove the blower wheel and clean thoroughly.

Doing some poking around the net the blower wheel is made of a pourous plastic allowing the mold to take hold. When I take it apart the wheel is moldy but the solid plastic around it has no mold on it! Horrible design for cleaning and only Friedrich with their floating air pro line has addressed it making the blower wheel more accessible.

 

[dscheidt]

At that point, you're a HVAC contractor and subject to all the licensing, permitting, insurance, and inspection requirements of your locality.

Around here (Chicago) the markup on splits is very high. An extended familiy member was working for a bigish plumbing and HVAC company. They figured labor installing splits at two or three times what they charged for traditional systems, because they could. Given what I see quoted as install prices in other places, its not unique to here. Plenty of room for people who aren't dishonest to undercut that.