Cheap tools

[sberry]

I have been accused of liking cheap stuff which is taken out of context. Buying a fistful of tools would have been cheaper than boo0ze and broads and playing poker by far.
The ability to own something outright has some advantages. I bought some nice hi dollar pieces when I was younger but really made more money with a buzzer and a 180 mig than anything else. I need it all for my own support and some of it was because it was the standard of the industry, the Hilit etc.

Some of it comes so close today for a fraction and they didn't have these box stores and internet, all the **** was dealer salesman sold and today can buy a tool 30 yrs later that works almost as good for a fraction of the price and as good for 3/4 of the price in a competing brand. in the same dollars, I recall the Hilti was near 400 at the time.

I do have some better perspective today. back look different. All the second class tools were just starting and there would have been some that thought a set of cheap impacts would never be service worthy and at the time cheap common sockets really were junk, an opinion surely escalated and endorsed by the 5$ socket set.

What I am impressed with today is that with a little shopping the real cost of decent tools has tanked, can buy the same welder I paid 650 for and had to get at a dealer in 90 can be had off the shelf at Lowes for 700. 25 yrs later. Sears hand hard line tools in sets dropped so pitifully low in a futile race to the bottom that anyone that has to ask about a wrench but needs a tool should rush over and buy a set, could throw half in the3 dumpster right off the bat and still get a bargain.
It would be different if it was 25 a piece,,, then worth some concern about how it fits my "golden arm" but for 75 cents including sales tax wtf.
It would be different if we put a premium price on it, polish it a bit more etc but that 1/2 set of Walmart sockets at under 25 bucks is not robbing anyone but the suckers that worked like a dog to make it, haul it and vend it with warranty,,, abused by junkyards everywhere way beyond most of the tool polishers found here.

 

[sberry]

I am all for a kid that thinks he needs a few hand tools to be rightfully encouraged over to an HF or Sears or Walmart to buy something functional vs waiting till he can save 200 for the Hansens, then 200 more for the perfect torx,,,, despite other testimony like my own that reflects the fact have had a 75$ investment over the yyears to ge the job done,,,, would it have helped to drop 200 30 yrs ago? Even if I could sell it back for half.
Cheap allows for building of wealth as it was described. A functioning 15$ torx set he owns outright allows for other expenditures and at the end of the day still has the tool worth the 15. A hundred dollars will buy a real handful of functioning tools in some cases.

Mechanic named John had a great idea and what was interesting was both the temptation to change a great strategy and the fact he could sell it for as much or more than he paid,,,, but I would have loved to see it 5 yrs out and find out 5 from now if it was worth it to start upgrading.

 

[n8n]

That's a judgement call.

Personally there are some things that are worth spending the money on. If someone I knew was getting ready to replace brake hoses on an older car I would encourage him to just order a set of S-K flare wrenches (or buy Snap-On off a truck) before even trying it. He'll have them for years, and they'll work.

This is from a guy that bought a set of RP Craftsman flare wrenches years ago. But I don't know how many times I've warrantied the 10/11 because it spread.

Now for general sockets/ratchets/etc. for working on newer, non-rusted stuff, yeah, you can get by with less expensive stuff. Again, I have - 90% of my sockets are old USA Craftsman, with a little Kobalt mixed in, and a few pawn shop and hand me down Snap-On and Williams as well.

I don't know if I would send anyone to Sears for tools though, unless they knew to look for "Made in USA." I don't think you can get a USA made set of standard combo wrenches anymore at all

 

[sberry]

The fear of the tool being not good enough is actually a hugely exaggerated, the belief is almost cult like and in many cases the base tool can actually be found generic white box for very little. I was talking with a tool vendor that was being candid with the competition. He said,,, I been at this market for long time and never get returns, we can buy a junk adjustable for 4$ or a good one for 5. I am trying to sell against 100 other guys with the same return customer base. I see a couple guys with new Sears all the time, must mail order sale sets and split them up.

 

[sberry]

I had to kill some time and looked at sears tools, made in China and some ratchets in Taiwan and some sockets USA, the stuff looked good and functional, sets were super cheap, why not send someone there to get a good start or for duplicates, or its really disposable pricing.
Cheap stuff can sit in a tool box just as well as stuff worthy of a payment. I needed to have it because I am the shop but I got a drawer full of duplication from sets I never used and ones I do need bought extras, some in the multiples.
If I had to start over tomorrow wouldn't give it a second thought but to head to that sale and buy a master set that met most of my needs and go from there.

 

[joedodge]

These are all fine statements. Young techs need to spend money wisely you can skimp out on certain things and make tools most pro techs do both. But as a pro tech buying sets is not a bad thing working on several cars and lines..........we re pros we will use them somewhere through out our career. Its different for pros

 

[n8n]

I had to kill some time and looked at sears tools, made in China and some ratchets in Taiwan and some sockets USA, the stuff looked good and functional, sets were super cheap, why not send someone there to get a good start or for duplicates, or its really disposable pricing.
Cheap stuff can sit in a tool box just as well as stuff worthy of a payment. I needed to have it because I am the shop but I got a drawer full of duplication from sets I never used and ones I do need bought extras, some in the multiples.
If I had to start over tomorrow wouldn't give it a second thought but to head to that sale and buy a master set that met most of my needs and go from there.

I'm not convinced that the new Craftsman is better enough than Harbor Freight to justify the pricing. I do kind of hold a grudge against Sears because it used to be that Craftsman tools might not have been pro quality but they were good enough to last a homeowner/DIYer a lifetime and maybe then some, and now I'm not certain that's the case. If it's an "I need it now, and it only has to last a job or two" purchase I'm going to HF (after checking the thread to make sure that i'm not buying complete garbage)

 

[joedodge]

Old craftsman was fine I haven't bought new craftsman in years and years but I use some craftsman stuff daily and no issues.

 

[Farmall450]

I'm not convinced that the new Craftsman is better enough than Harbor Freight to justify the pricing. I do kind of hold a grudge against Sears because it used to be that Craftsman tools might not have been pro quality but they were good enough to last a homeowner/DIYer a lifetime and maybe then some, and now I'm not certain that's the case. If it's an "I need it now, and it only has to last a job or two" purchase I'm going to HF (after checking the thread to make sure that i'm not buying complete garbage)

It's basically gearwrench, a "premium asian" brand now...?

Definitely leaps above most HF garbage.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

Back when we started our garage we were an Arco station. We had a Snap On guy, Mac guy, and a Uhaul guy. Snap On guy had 50/50 Snap On and SK. Mac guy had Proto, Blackhawk, and Mac. Uhaul had some no name stuff, but high quality. There were no big box stores, Internet, or HF back then. The ****** no name stuff was such good quality, but void of a name. Things were different back then. Even the no name stuff was USA made. The Uhaul guy was the best. Not only did he have some cool tools, but he always had toys. Car haulers, box trucks, and trailers. He would just give them to us because we rented Uhaul. Try getting a free hat or sticker these days from the tool trucks. It doesn't happen often unless you spend money. Times have changed.

 

[joedodge]

I have no issue with cheap tools. I use gear wrench, Hf, snap ,on lisle, matco literally use them all they all have there places. Some tolls just need to be good. When your a pro you depend on them daily. That's what's missed on this forum not all of us are tool polishers, collectors, and DIY weekend warriors. Most of us buy what we can afford and full sets. That's what bugs me the most is not realizing this is some of our livelihoods and buying incomplete sets it's pointless you will use it eventually

 

[sberry]

For 700$ a guy should be impressed but make it work for 25$ and a guy almost cant afford not to buy it. Not all the math is that great but works out that way in the end, the risk to a 80 piece tap and die set at 25$,,, with a little shopping can have the generic version of the ones they re badge under a dozen labels at various prices.
A guy will find specialized things he needs more of but I would try to match that curve along the way. In the real world have now have enough time frame to look at some things we bought that have survived way beyond their expectations, what impressive is we bought some POS and it outlived it by multiples and has become part of the fabric.

We bought generic unibits, other guys finally bought them and now we cant tell the difference except that its twice as easy to afford 2 as it was one. We put it thru long tern trade level service, works 15 yrs later and shows no indication that it wont well in to the future, about the same as out experience with the adjustable wrenches of the new age.
I am not impressed with how poorly something is but how good things are today, I am constantly surprised by it.
There are a few things that havnt flew by like the majority of hand tools but the price had remained low. They have to add new features just to raise the selling point in the compact mig.

 

[sberry]

I'm not convinced that the new Craftsman is better enough than Harbor Freight to justify the pricing.

How much difference is there????? Is anyone really robbing the customer at this level?

 

[CJM8515]

I think so long as its not the really cheapo stuff like the super cheap junk you can get at walmart of HF your fine.

Since I joined Ive been telling people: For the last 10 years I have the same toolbox for various jobs. Its mostly stanley tools and so far Ive only worn out the ratchets and thats because since they were so cheap Ill admit I used them in ways your not supposed to. None of the sockets snapped, broke, or have gotten ruined. None of the wrenches spread or broke, nothing, nada. I had SO and other tool truck brands when I worked at shops, I sold alot of it b/c I needed the cash (long story) at one point and replaced it with similar but "cheaper" none tool truck brands. My entire box is full of stanley/older (stanley made) husky, SK, gear wrench and so forth and I have zero complains. I still have some of the tool truck stuff-but not that much anymore.

Another example: I was always infatuated with tools since I was a kid. One my parents got me a cheapo kmart set of hand tools. Who knows the brand and alot of them are gone, but I still have the 6" slip joint pliers and Im 30 now..I think I got the set when i was 5. Never broke them and they have been abused as much as you can think of. About all that happaned is the chrome is wearing off.

About the only tools I dont feel are worth it are those super cheap ratchets and sockets that you can tell are junk just by looking at them. The ratchets break easier than sears RP and the sockets will snap just by looking at them.

 

[sberry]

I think its great for the end user, has driven the price so low it has ruled out the necessity to have top of the line to get a days work done.

 

[signcrafter]

Everybody is unique and has to come up with their own formula as to what quality of tool they need. I have a mix of all brands, from snap on to HF. When I was younger I learned that cheaper tools can be more expensive when you have to keep buying them. Example, my first socket set was a mix of foreign things, one of those old metal cases. I stripped a bunch of sockets out working on my first car. Then upgraded to craftsman and it fit my needs and worked good. Another example is the HF snap ring pliers, complete garbage for even a one time use. Waste of 10 dollars. So everyone needs to come up with a formula that works for them based on price, how often you will use it, how much stress the tool will see, warranty, etc.

 

[joedodge]

Wtf are you talking about half the time? We get it you like cheap tools and not spending money and piecing sets together. But building things on a farm and being pinned down to flat rate time and getting a job done are totally different man.

 

[joedodge]

Sign crafter gets it!! Thanks goodness

 

[sberry]

I think so long as its not the really cheapo stuff like the super cheap junk you can get at walmart of HF your fine.

Since I joined Ive been telling people: For the last 10 years I have the same toolbox for various jobs. Its mostly stanley tools and so far Ive only worn out the ratchets and thats because since they were so cheap Ill admit I used them in ways your not supposed to. None of the sockets snapped, broke, or have gotten ruined. None of the wrenches spread or broke, nothing, nada. I had SO and other tool truck brands when I worked at shops, I sold alot of it b/c I needed the cash (long story) at one point and replaced it with similar but "cheaper" none tool truck brands. My entire box is full of stanley/older husky (when made by stanley) tools and I have zero complains. I still have some of the tool truck stuff-but not that much anymore.

This is a real snapshot of what I talk about. A classic example. Had good stuff,,, odds I lost it due to something way beyond breakage, when I had to replace it took a little chance at a fraction of the price and found out a lot of it worked better than you thought it would.
I bought a set of Walmart bits 15 yrs ago for a job on the weekend, the day I bought them intended to replace or upgrade, reality is the day hasn't come yet. They well did the hard work thru the reman and now their duty cycle had dropped off

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Everybody is unique and has to come up with their own formula as to what quality of tool they need. I have a mix of all brands, from snap on to HF. When I was younger I learned that cheaper tools can be more expensive when you have to keep buying them. Example, my first socket set was a mix of foreign things, one of those old metal cases. I stripped a bunch of sockets out working on my first car. Then upgraded to craftsman and it fit my needs and worked good. Another example is the HF snap ring pliers, complete garbage for even a one time use. Waste of 10 dollars. So everyone needs to come up with a formula that works for them based on price, how often you will use it, how much stress the tool will see, warranty, etc.

Well said.

I think people should buy whatever the hell they want, but accept the consequence of that. Don't buy an expensive tool and complain about the cost, and that a cheaper alternative will work just as well. Similarly, don't buy a cheap tool and complain that it's inferior. I've bought expensive tools and then realised i could get the exact same thing for less elsewhere, but at that point it's done.

Bought a torch/flash light from Snap-on recently for £50. Got home and found the same one (LED Lenser) for £30. Oh well!

Cheap tools are only cheap the first time.

I have a mix, from very expensive to cheap. Tools from all over the world, old and new, etc. I buy what works for me, sometimes i still get it wrong.

 

[joedodge]

Finally more reason well said moose!

 

[CJM8515]

Thats exactly it sberry! At the time I built that toolbox I didnt want to spend $$$ on SO or such b/c I knew that the tools would be abused alot. For reference I worked in a shop for quite awhile but I left due to personal reasons and took a job doing AAA work. I dont even drive a tow truck anymore, nope all I have to do is go out and replace your battery. That same toolbox has changed probably 5,000 batteries, put a power steering pump on my friends car, pulled a trans (with the help of some other stuff lol), worked on my own vehicles, countless offroad toys and motorcycles, etc. Its my go to b/c it has every size/basic tool you might need in most cases.

I actually sold alot of my SO stuff b/c I didnt use it that much, found cheaper tools that were just as nice (I think) and the bulk of it was to pay off a fairly large debt I had gotten myself into. Replacement time came along and I didnt want to spend and be in debt to the tool truck. Ill also add, that in some cases its worth it to buy a better tool. IE: I could have bought the cheapo soldering iron at HF but I bought a weller for a few bucks more at HD or I could have kept the propane torch I got from HD (kind you need to light/spark to ignite) but for the cost I went out and later bought a piezeo self igniting torch, or the torque wrenches I have-at least I bought craftsman (doubled checked against SO and others and they are on the money), but I knew better than to buy HF ones.

 

[sberry]

Wtf are you talking about half the time? We get it you like cheap tools and not spending money and piecing sets together. But building things on a farm and being pinned down to flat rate time and getting a job done are totally different man.

No they are not. How much to you realistically think a several hundred dollar addition for a few end wrenches will make the avg Joe? Everyone view themselves as a golden arm, if a guy says he "cant" with a wrench I send him with on a job I got I know that putting a polished flank drive in his hand is a waste of time and couldn't recouple the investment in a hundred years.

Secondly that's what this forum is about is the nonsense most of it is, usually started by a thread about whats the best followed by,,,,, well I guess I don't want to pay that much really anyway and then followed by some testimony that some fancy ratchet and end wrench turned him from a bumbling fool to Mr Goodwrench over night. I actually think its comical and certainly helps me to understand the concept of how extended warranty is so profitable

 

[joedodge]

I agree you can either turn wrenches or you can't. But in the real world it's all about options. We don't have all day to tinker. Gotta get the customers equipment or car out. Tools are purely options to get the job done. A basic wrench will do almost every time nicer different styles are options tho. And pros need options

 

[T_Roze]

I guess I'll play. I am in the middle of the road. My box is a mix of snap on, Mastercraft, princess auto, and everything in-between. Starting out, I bought cheap as I could. And that tune soon changed. Once you use a snap on needle nose, or a Milwaukee 3/8" cordless impact, you realize the time and effort you just saved. I find that specialized tools are often better bought of a truck, and general service type stuff can be bought out of a box store.

My sockets are all Mastercraft, or genius. I really like the quality, and warranty is easy if I need it. Snap on in our area is not as regular as I would like, and that is part of the reason why I don't use their sockets. I love my gear wrench ratcheting wrench set, as I write this I just bought the "large" add on sets, because they are a high quality box store alternative to the truck brands.

Just as a side note. A $25 tap and die set is fine, but working in a shop on the clock, break one of those cheap taps, and you just lost all you saved on that tool set. Tap and die is one thing I don't skimp on

 

[joedodge]

No your wrong........cheap things that break are just as good in fact if you can't do it with the cheap one a expensive one will be no better.......smh

 

[sberry]

Well we essentially agree the skill set is the primary factor. But I got 10 in tools and the next guy has 100, if I try to spend up at what point would it pay? Especially considering how long term it is. I am not saying you shouldn't use good tools but that throwing monery at it and expecting a return is delusionary in the new tool age.
I have some cheaper tools now been long time used in the real world that don't fail me and delay the work and the customer really doesn't care if it was a golden wrench or not.
Judging a tool on its merits is a way different that on feeling and maybe nostalga, marketing, trade preference is often slow to change. Used to be a Klein or nothing, a Channelock or nothing.

 

[byoungblood]

My relatively cheap Performance Tool 1/2 metric impacts have served me well for 10+ years. I've beat the **** out of a few sizes wrangling with rusted bolts and nuts, hit them with a hammer to knock them off the end of said bolt, and they haven't given up the ghost yet. Ditto with a harmonic balancer/steering wheel puller I bought in high school, I've replaced the cheapo bolts that came with it, but the puller screw still works fine.

I think it comes down to knowing what to pony up and pay the extra money for. For general hand tools, I'll spend a little more money on them (still not tool truck money) since I know I'll use them often and want them to last a few decades at least.

 

[joedodge]

Now sberry that I agree with you on. I've bought plenty of cheap tools that worked great and bought expensive ones that where terrible. I've always said a young guy should buy the best he can afford. Not the most expensive but the best you can afford and provide for your family. Unless your a tool polisher and that just kills me by the way lol

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Well we essentially agree the skill set is the primary factor. But I got 10 in tools and the next guy has 100, if I try to spend up at what point would it pay?

I could walk to work. I could drive a really cheap car to work. Instead i drive my car to work. Why? Because i want to. I'm sure i could get something that uses less fuel, costs less to insure, costs less to maintain, etc. But i want my car, not something else.

You have cheap tools, they work for you. That's great, good for you. But other people might not want to use cheap tools or walk to work, maybe they want to drive expensive cars and use expensive tools? It's a personal preference. What works for you might not work for me, so i don't use the same tools as you.

I don't get the whole chip on the shoulder about cheap tools. Why can't people just buy what they want and use what they want without the horrendous judgement and stigma over it all?

Buying expensive tools might not give you the return in investment, my £40k in tools might not give me the return in investment, but i don't actually care. I like them, i like using them.

You make your bed, you lay in it. What's the issue?

 

[oilfieldtrash4]

Most of my stuff is made in the USA tools. I'm a truck driver and rarely use them. My cars are relatively new and I understand my limitations as a mechanic. I'd rather pay you guys instead of spending my entire weekend on something you guys get done in 3 hours. Having said that the few times a year I break out the tools for the small job it sure is nice to have that made in the USA bling in my hands.
Yes hf would be more than enough for me but I just like a nice tool feel in the hand.

 

[sberry]

Ill also add, that in some cases its worth it to buy a better tool. IE: I could have bought the cheapo soldering iron at HF but I bought a weller for a few bucks more at HD or I could have kept the propane torch I got from HD (kind you need to light/spark to ignite) but for the cost I went out and later bought a piezeo self igniting torch, or the torque wrenches I have-at least I bought craftsman (doubled checked

Sure, no one argues it all has to be cheap and I agree many of the one off items are worth more for quality.
My point is that shotgunning money at the tool truck likely never meets its return, don't think defects and broken tools are significant with delay to work. If as guy has been making it on a few HF end wrenches for a couple years there is unlikely much return in flat rate to an upgrade. I have seen those wrenches abused, they hold up find and wouldn't hold my breath for one to break doing common work.

 

[joedodge]

Exactly there's a difference between a weekend warrior,DIY guy , and a pro tech. That is forgotten on here a lot. It's not a bad thing but a lot of the tool polishers forget just because you have pro tools...........don't make you a pro.

 

[sberry]

I am not sure about the pro tech part of the equation. I cant see how throwing 40$ at an impact socket compared to one I bought 20 yrs ago for 2$ over the counter with a warranty could possibly be better or speed things up?

I also don't make the argument you shouldn't spend your money as you wish but that the advice about what an investment some of this turns out to be is not accurate. Yes is the tool being judged or the feeling about the tool.

 

[joedodge]

Have you used that socket every day......abusing and using it? Would you chance your paycheck on it?

 

[Bruce57]

I am all for saving money where you can. Tools are obviously a matter of personal preference as demonstrated in this forum. For my job I will spend more money for premium tools than I will on my home tools. Most of my tools I have purchased used but in good condition because the price of new is more than I want to spend, particularly the truck brands. Last week I was on an out of state job and needed a 1/2" open end wrench. I grabbed a Taiwan Williams off my service truck from a set that the company recently bought. I thought these would be decent wrenches at a value price. The open end of the wrench was too small for the nut - the opening was machined undersized. I was 500 miles from the shop and a long way from a hardware store. Fortunately I had another wrench on the truck to use. Things happen, but this is a situation that I don't want to be caught in. I've never had this happen with my own work tools. I carry some of my personal tools on the truck, but most are in the shop where I spend a fair amount of time. I can't take them all with me on a road trip, however I do carry my own tool bag. This is just another reason why I'm willing to pay more for my work tools. I agree with others, a tool doesn't have to say Snap-on to be a quality tool. I own a lot of Snap-on, but in some instances there are similar or better quality at a more reasonable price. Like others have stated in various threads, what ever works best for you and what you like is what you should buy. In my job I want to know the tools I have are high quality, fit properly, and are durable. My boss says the lower grade tools have the same warranty as more expensive tools. I don't totally agree with that statement, but regardless, especially on a field repair job, warranty is not my first concern - good tool performance more important to me. I try to spend my money wisely and I often research certain tools before I purchase them. That is how I found this forum. I'm not going to agree with every opinion I read here, nor is everyone else going to agree with mine. But it has been a good source of information for finding tools at a good value.

 

[Hiball]

Some people buy tools, other people wake up every morning pack a bowl and post random posts on the Internet till the high wears off.

I must ask though.. How can one be so hypocritical about someone buying brand A versus B, when that person has money literally going up in smoke?

 

[CJM8515]

Have you used that socket every day......abusing and using it? Would you chance your paycheck on it?

Same stanley set of 1/2 impact sockets used daily on the road for 10+ years plus my own home use. Never broke a one. I musta changed 10,000 flats with them by now, all using snap on cordless impact and at home a SO air impact. But the SO ones are sooo much nicer right?

My buddys shop I used to work for has same same bunch of tools for eons, rarely do they break an impact socket and they are beat on and used daily.

 

[joedodge]

Yes I know lol. I use a lot of sunnex personally. Just trying to see where sberry is coming from. And making a point weekend warrior farmer tool polisher types is a lil different than pro wrenching. That's missed so much on this forum! We are all different and do different things........not all of us buy tools to clean with wd40 and stare at

 

[wafrederick]

Cheap throw aways,I keep around to modify since there is no warranty on them.There is no sense at all to modify a good tool with a warranty.