Cheapest source for THHN?

[MushCreek]

I'm getting ready to wire the barn, and plan to pull THHN through conduit. I've been looking around the interwebs for wire pricing, and I can't find anybody that touches Lowe's so far. They get about $40 for 500 ft of THHN 12 AWG solid. Everywhere else seems higher- sometimes a lot higher. Am I missing something, or is Lowe's actually that much cheaper? It still annoys me that 12-2 NM is so much cheaper than three strands of THHN, but I don't want to finish the walls just to cover NM.

Question- If I buy just one color of THHN, can I just color the ends that show per NEC? Or is that a bad idea?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm getting ready to wire the barn, and plan to pull THHN through conduit. I've been looking around the interwebs for wire pricing, and I can't find anybody that touches Lowe's so far. They get about $40 for 500 ft of THHN 12 AWG solid. Everywhere else seems higher- sometimes a lot higher. Am I missing something, or is Lowe's actually that much cheaper? It still annoys me that 12-2 NM is so much cheaper than three strands of THHN, but I don't want to finish the walls just to cover NM.

Question- If I buy just one color of THHN, can I just color the ends that show per NEC? Or is that a bad idea?

U could try http://www.wireandcabletogo.com have u tried a local electrical supplier?

Based on the prices @ home depot, THHN isnt that much more- about .05 cents/ft.

U dont necessarily need to cover the walls. It depends on whether the NM-b would be subject to damage.

And no, with those gauges, u cant just buy one color of THHN and phase tape/color it. U need one of each- black white and green.

 

[nsula_country]

A local electric supply house should be your best bet for stranded wire.

CT

 

[MushCreek]

I called one local supply house- $58 a roll.

My other option would be to run NM above 8', then just cover the actual bays where it comes down the wall. I kinda like the looks of surface mounted conduit, though, and it's much easier to make changes.

 

[simpler=better]

Call around-my local place did $00.265 per foot for 6ga, even to a small timer like me. REALLY cheap conduit fittings compared to home derpert/ lowseys too.

CL can probably get you partial rolls-lots of people who only needed a little and bought the big reel.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, you will be better off avoiding solid wire. I have found stranded is easier to work with.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah stranded is easier to pull.

But make sure to get the spec grade or "professional" grade outlets with the pressure plates when using stranded wire. Or use solid pig tails.

 

[simpler=better]

Yeah stranded is easier to pull.

But make sure to get the spec grade or "professional" grade outlets with the pressure plates when using stranded wire. Or use solid pig tails.

Also twist the stripped strands counter clockwise before putting them under terminals

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Also twist the stripped strands counter clockwise before putting them under terminals

Yes u can do that and Ive done that but as things loosen up strands some times wiggle loose and end up fraying off.

I like to use pressure plate back-wired outlets with stranded wire

 

[matt_i]

I see "industrial" electricians "phase tape" the 120vac conductors all the time. Not saying I endorse it. They do typically do a good job of it and tape 6+ inches up and not just a single band. Also everything is number-labeled as well to match the legend in the panel, although I have yet to see an electrical sketch or drawing.

Functionally I don't see the difference...its a copper wire and does not care as long as its undamaged and well-terminated, and someone down the line can troubleshoot it safely.

THHN is also a far tougher wire than NM, its gasoline, oil, solvent resistant, can lay in water with the typical "W" rating on it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I see "industrial" electricians "phase tape" the 120vac conductors all the time. Not saying I endorse it. They do typically do a good job of it and tape 6+ inches up and not just a single band. Also everything is number-labeled as well to match the legend in the panel, although I have yet to see an electrical sketch or drawing.

Functionally I don't see the difference...its a copper wire and does not care as long as its undamaged and well-terminated, and someone down the line can troubleshoot it safely.

THHN is also a far tougher wire than NM, its gasoline, oil, solvent resistant, can lay in water with the typical "W" rating on it.

What size wire? #4 and larger can be phase taped and still meet code.

And just because an electrician does something doesnt mean its to code. I see work done by licensed electeicians all the time that wasnt done to code.

 

[bczygan]

Use the coupon code generator for Lowes.

 

[ddawg16]

When I'm using THWN/THHN, I use a pig tail at the outlet. Wire nut a short piece of solid to the stranded wires. Wires and wire nuts stay at the back of the box and I don't have to worry about using crimp connectors at the outlet.

 

[ddawg16]

And Lowe's and HD are going to be one of your cheapest sources.

Something to consider....if you are going to need more than one roll (and I'm sure you will), you might get a better deal buying 1000' rolls...or larger. An you will have less waste.

 

[MushCreek]

You can tape some residential stuff, such as a white wire that's being used for hot on a light switch. Just wasn't sure about it in other places. I guess I'll have to dig through the NEC.

I like to use pressure plate back wired outlets anyway. That's what I put throughout the house I just built. I don't like side terminal, and especially not back-stab.

 

[nsula_country]

Sometimes box stores are cheaper when it comes to wire. They spot buy and do not adjust price until they buy again. Supply houses sell wire a market price. Copper price fluctuates daily.

They only thing that my supply house could not beat the box stores on was Romex when we were building our house. The only thing I did not buy from the supply house was Romex! Having an account at the supply house helps though.

The box stores also sell wire at a loss sometimes then make it up on the conduit, condulets, fittings, wire nuts, receptacles, breakers, ect.

Another option when terminating is Sta-Con type crimp fork connectors for switches and receptacles that do not have the pressure plates under the screws.

CT

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You can tape some residential stuff, such as a white wire that's being used for hot on a light switch. Just wasn't sure about it in other places. I guess I'll have to dig through the NEC.

I like to use pressure plate back wired outlets anyway. That's what I put throughout the house I just built. I don't like side terminal, and especially not back-stab.

Thats only allowed for assembled cables such as NM-b.

Individual conductors is a no go upto #6. Larger than that and u can phase tape.

 

[MushCreek]

OK- Thanks, Wylie!

The stranded 12 AWG THHN is $45 at Lowe's, so not too bad. When I wired the house, the big box stores were the cheapest for NM, and it is actually Romex brand. Everything else was crazy expensive. I shop around a lot- money's too hard to find, and too easy to spend. I just have to figure out how much I will actually need. Lights will be on 14 AWG; outlets on 12, except the big ones for the welder and compressor. I don't really think I need 500', but it does add up. I used over half a mile of NM in the house, and it's a small house!

 

[Cmreschke]

Sta kons are a great way to go imo. Also, as was said before you can not tape to re identify a neutral or ground wire, unless it's #4 or larger (really stupid rule, I know) nothing says you can't re identify a black to a red though I do believe. Fyi if conduit is installed properly, (emt not pvc) you can use your conduit as a ground.

 

[nsula_country]

OK- Thanks, Wylie!

The stranded 12 AWG THHN is $45 at Lowe's, so not too bad. When I wired the house, the big box stores were the cheapest for NM, and it is actually Romex brand. Everything else was crazy expensive. I shop around a lot- money's too hard to find, and too easy to spend. I just have to figure out how much I will actually need. Lights will be on 14 AWG; outlets on 12, except the big ones for the welder and compressor. I don't really think I need 500', but it does add up. I used over half a mile of NM in the house, and it's a small house!

Save yourself the grief now! DO NOT USE ANY 14 GAUGE WIRE!

Use all 12, use all 20a breakers. One day you WILL want or need to modify a circuit. In the long run its cheaper to buy bulk in one size and minimize waste. I even used 12 ga on the smoke alarm circuit in my house so I would not have to buy 14 ga wire and an oddball 15 amp breaker.

CT

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Yeah stranded is easier to pull.

But make sure to get the spec grade or "professional" grade outlets with the pressure plates when using stranded wire. Or use solid pig tails.

 

[nadogail]

Some scrap dealers will buy what they were told was "left over" wire ( very probably stolen ) and resell it.

 

[ford33]

Buying wire is expensive. A 100 foot or 500 foot roll is much cheaper than smaller rolls.

OP, perhaps you can save some money. Is it necessary to use two different wire colors for hot wires in a 240v single phase circuit?

For example use one color wire, such as black, for both hots in a 240v feed from main house panel to sub-panel in an attached garage. This is 6 gauge wire run in metal conduit. A single phase circuit doesn't need to use red and black color wires for Hot 1 and Hot 2. Correct?

 

[thewatusi]

Save yourself the grief now! DO NOT USE ANY 14 GAUGE WIRE!

Use all 12, use all 20a breakers. One day you WILL want or need to modify a circuit. In the long run its cheaper to buy bulk in one size and minimize waste. I even used 12 ga on the smoke alarm circuit in my house so I would not have to buy 14 ga wire and an oddball 15 amp breaker.

CT

Unless you get 12 awg wire for free this is awful advice.

20 amp lighting circuits are wasteful and a 20 amp circuit for smoke detectors is just asinine.

Figure out what you *need* and buy appropriately.

 

[vartz04]

Unless you get 12 awg wire for free this is awful advice.



20 amp lighting circuits are wasteful and a 20 amp circuit for smoke detectors is just asinine.



Figure out what you *need* and buy appropriately.

On top of this once the 12awg gets old it is a pain in the *** to work with. My old house was all 12 AWG. I hated it. In my garage I did all 14 except for dedicated outlets (20 amp 12 AWG) and my heater circuit (10 AWG even though it's 20 amp just because I had the 10/3 nm-b already)


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[nadogail]

We have some real differences of opinion here, I have purchased 14 Gauge, because it was less expensive, and used it because it was adequate for the purpose.
Later things changed and I regretted not having spent the extra few pennies per foot, because what was once adequate is now too light for my needs.

I keep some "Romex" on hand for odd jobs, but when my stock of 14 gauge is exhausted I will not buy 14 again. As for 12 being harder to work with, my opinion is " not that much harder ", there is a hole in my pliers to bend wire loops with, I used it a lot last week when was working with 10 gauge solid.

 

[MushCreek]

I already have enough 14 NM for the lighting, left over from the house. Lighting will be simple; 3 switches and three banks of lights. I like separating lighting and outlets anyway, as you're less likely to wind up in the dark if you plug in a faulty device, or run a saw through an extension cord. I think 20A (and GFI) is code for a space such as a garage or workshop.

As for 240V, I don't need all that much. All of the 240V tools will be on one wall. 120V is a different story, as I need plenty of outlets all around, and the shop is 28 X 32. It adds up. I guess I can draw it all up and do the math. Prices go up for small quantities. 100' at Lowe's is half what they get for 500', or 2-1/2 times the per/foot price. Places that sell by the foot may be cheaper if I need, say, 300', and don't want a lot of left over wire. I don't plan for a huge amount of upgrades in the future. I'm 62 now, and by the time I get this all done, I'll be getting kind of old for big changes.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

I am in the middle of designing my electrical as well. It is hard to beat HD and Lowe's pricing. HD tends to be lower, at least in my area.

As far as circuit design, it really all depends. You don't have a huge warehouse to light, so 15A circuits are probably fine. There is really no need to "overwire" if not absolutely required. I am actually contemplating doing every other outlet in 15A. In the end probably do all 20A "just because", but it really all comes down to how you use the space.

Any outlets high up on wall, or ceiling, dedicated to things like fans, trouble lights, etc. will be on a 15A circuit. Not going to be plugging in a amp-hungry tool 8' off the floor. In most cases, typical maintenance tools do not require more than 15A. In either case, make sure you have enough circuits so that you don't have to worry about loading a single circuit too heavily. (kinda my thought on every other outlet being on a separate circuit and maybe even 15A versus 20A).

 

[nadogail]

Because I am a Veteran, I get a 10% discount at both Lowe's and Home Depot, I am quick to whip out my ID card and ask for it.

Every little bit helps.

 

[simpler=better]

We have some real differences of opinion here, I have purchased 14 Gauge, because it was less expensive, and used it because it was adequate for the purpose.
Later things changed and I regretted not having spent the extra few pennies per foot, because what was once adequate is now too light for my needs.

I keep some "Romex" on hand for odd jobs, but when my stock of 14 gauge is exhausted I will not buy 14 again. As for 12 being harder to work with, my opinion is " not that much harder ", there is a hole in my pliers to bend wire loops with, I used it a lot last week when was working with 10 gauge solid.

x2

I run 12ga Romex for standard 15A outlets and lights, never had trouble with it.

My 50A generator line is piped-in 6ga(65A rated) because I don't want to ever doubt it. It was $27 more than 8ga.

It's pennies, and it helps me sleep at night. Bigger wire=less heat in the wire, insulation, and walls.

 

[MushCreek]

I'm using all LED 4' fixtures, so the whole circuit is only 360 watts. Even if someone switched over to T-8's in the future, you're still only at 1280 watts, well within a 15A circuit. 15A for outlets would be a waste, as my 12" miter saw would probably pop the breaker.

 

[nsula_country]

We all have different views.

OP (MushCreek), if a 15 amp circuit is fine for your needs, run it. For small runs, it may make sense to buy and only use what you need.

My background is in industrial electrical and automation controls. The only time I use anything smaller than 12 ga is 16 ga control wiring for I/O circuits other panel wiring.

Some will call it "over engineered" which is what we do at times, especially when your an automation engineer.

I have seen too many times where there is a 15 amp circuit that gets outgrown. 9/10 times, a 20 amp breaker gets put in to replace the 15 amp because its tripping due to over-current and the wire is still 14 ga. This is real, it happens a lot! Not many people outside of the electrical world would pull the 14 out and replace with 12...

I'm not saying its wrong to run 15 amp circuits. Personally I do not run 15 amp circuits anymore. But I keep some THHN and EMT on hand at all times. I buy 12 ga in 500' spools, as I do 10 ga. So all circuits are 20 amp. On projects, I buy it in spools and the extra is used for future needs.

I also go breaker happy. Lighting will always be a dedicated circuit, regardless of how few fixtures. Indoor lights and outdoor lights will have separate circuits. Indoor main lighting and "other" lighting will be on separate circuits.

When running wall receptacles, I run the circuits in pairs and every other receptacle is a different circuit. Example 8 receptacles... Circuit A, Circuit B, A, B, A, B, A, B. So if you had two devices running at the same time on two neighboring receptacles, there is no risk of tripping because they are separate circuits.

As for the smoke alarm circuit, I could not see buying a roll of 14 when I used over 4000' of 12... It was on hand and breakers cost the same (Cutler Hammer CH).

CT

 

[gtae07]

When running wall receptacles, I run the circuits in pairs and every other receptacle is a different circuit. Example 8 receptacles... Circuit A, Circuit B, A, B, A, B, A, B. So if you had two devices running at the same time on two neighboring receptacles, there is no risk of tripping because they are separate circuits.

That's exactly what I did in my shop. Each wall has two 20A circuits except the one with the large doors, since there were only three outlets there. I also used 12ga wire and 20A breakers everywhere to simplify the logistics, allow for expansion, and to give plenty of room for multiple items on one circuit.

I also wired my 50A welder outlets with 6ga wire; I know supposedly you can use smaller wire based on the welder duty cycle but that just seemed to be begging for a mistake later.

 

[nh_yota]

I use 12g for 20a outlet circuits and 14g for 15a lighting circuits. Reason I use 12g for outlets is because I live in the land of window air conditioners and having that extra bit of capacity helps me sleep at night.

If your house has central air I don't see much of a need for 12g/20a outlet circuits except for in the kitchen and garage.

 

[Pwrgeek]

That's exactly what I did in my shop. Each wall has two 20A circuits except the one with the large doors, since there were only three outlets there. I also used 12ga wire and 20A breakers everywhere to simplify the logistics, allow for expansion, and to give plenty of room for multiple items on one circuit.

I also wired my 50A welder outlets with 6ga wire; I know supposedly you can use smaller wire based on the welder duty cycle but that just seemed to be begging for a mistake later.

I took this one step further. I put in all 4X4 boxes with two recepticales (4 plugs) in each. They are color coded by circuit (white is "A" and black is "B"). That way I can plug in two 20A devices at any location without concern (My main case for this is drill plus shop vac for chip management).

 

[Crazy68Dart]

That's exactly what I did in my shop. Each wall has two 20A circuits except the one with the large doors, since there were only three outlets there. I also used 12ga wire and 20A breakers everywhere to simplify the logistics, allow for expansion, and to give plenty of room for multiple items on one circuit.

My plan as well, alternating circuits. For a one man shop, probably a little unnecessary, how many tools can you safely use at once? Splitting the circuits anyway, so why not alternate.

 

[nsula_country]

I took this one step further. I put in all 4X4 boxes with two recepticales (4 plugs) in each. They are color coded by circuit (white is "A" and black is "B"). That way I can plug in two 20A devices at any location without concern (My main case for this is drill plus shop vac for chip management).

This is what I did in my first shop (8x40 shipping container) for miter saw, drill press, table saw, ect and a vac. I also did the 4 square with two receptacles. OVERKILL for 320 sq/ft, but hey. 100 amp subpanel on a 90 amp breaker. I had 6, 20 amp receptacle circuits, 2, 20 amp lighting circuits (inside circuit and drop shed and booger light) and a 50 amp for welder. All EMT. Also had air piped down one wall with 4 taps.

CT

 

[rburke65]

Home Depot was the same price as the wholesale contractor when I bought my #4 THHN. Plus if you buy it with a gift card at HD I got $ toward gas.

 

[FireTurtle]

I am actually contemplating doing every other outlet in 15A.

That's what I did for one side of my garage. If I had run all 12 with 20A breakers, I would have needed bigger conduit or multiple runs. It's less of an eye sore crossing the middle of the ceiling with just one run of conduit. I'm pretty happy with it. The 20A circuits are spaced so that they are where the front & rear of a vehicle would be. That way if I need to run something heavy duty, I don't have to use a long extension cord to power the tool to reach any part of a vehicle.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

That's what I did for one side of my garage. If I had run all 12 with 20A breakers, I would have needed bigger conduit or multiple runs. It's less of an eye sore crossing the middle of the ceiling with just one run of conduit. I'm pretty happy with it. The 20A circuits are spaced so that they are where the front & rear of a vehicle would be. That way if I need to run something heavy duty, I don't have to use a long extension cord to power the tool to reach any part of a vehicle.

Well at least I am not thinking completely crazy... hehe. Sorta same deal here. I am running NB in walls, but also want to run 10/3 240 terminated with outlets at various places, future proof a bit with another circuit or two for a lift circuit, etc. I'd rather not have to put a bunch of holes in the studs. Already going to have a few sets of holes for high versus low voltage stuff (CAT5e for IP cameras, etc.). That and simply trying not to be wasteful. As it sits right now, seems like a lot of outlets. 20A outlets add up, 15A are pretty inexpensive in comparison. Number 12 is easy enough to deal with, but number 14 is nice in comparison. All said, might just do all 20A (except for lighting), need to get everything laid out.