Cheapo power tool rant

[jonesg]

Sorry if I came across badly, hard to convey some things online.

Its not easy putting confusion into words.

 

[DadsTools]

Cheapo Power Tools....

Some years ago, I bought a pair of 1/2" Craftsman C3 19.2V cordless drills and one extra battery on sale. They were a good price. Bought them as backups for my main DeWalts to use when the DW needs charging or for lighter jobs where the DW is not needed. Or sometimes just having multiple guns set up with different bits/drills so I don't have to keep changing them out. All small farm and home projects here, not professional use, nothing gets used all the time, but only for occasional projects. Don't know why anybody likes these C3. Eventually one of the motors burned out. Replaced the motor. Just the other day the other motor burned out. I just tossed it out instead of trying to repair. All the batteries deteriorated in an unreasonably short time so that, while they'll charge, they won't hold it long, and after just sitting on the shelf for a week need to be charged again. IMO, they were junk, but not so cheap to buy.

Before anyone says I should have managed the batteries in such and such a way, I've treated the DWs in the same way with no such problems.

Though not as powerful as the C3, my newer backup cordless drills that have worked fine with no battery problems or burnt out motors are....and trust me that I winch just saying this....are my $20 HF Drillmaster 18v guns. Not to say how great they are, but just to compare to how crappy the Craftsman were. Pretty sad.

 

[dwasifar]

Sorry if I came across badly, hard to convey some things online.

No harm, no foul.

 

[7th Kahuna]

My biggest problem with these is not the price but the advertising. Calling it Pro-Series is false advertising and while you and I may recognize it, I watch others struggle, especially older folks who did most of their buying in a time that I can only assume was more restrictive about such advertising. How many of us here remember Sears' 'Good', 'Better', 'Best' sales model? Sears' would never have called their 'Good' Sears branded drill 'Pro-Series'. Pro was reserved for Craftsman.

If we really were interested in protecting American manufacturing or reducing waste, one simple change we could make would be to set minimum usability standards for certain product classes. Doing so would not be the end of Harbor Freight, and would not have saved Craftsman but I believe it would be a good thing. East Germany, because of resource restrictions required that a refrigerator or washing machine for example, last 25 years. Even their incandescent light bulbs lasted longer. I don't offer that illustration out of any love for East Germany, rather to say that even a poor, resource restricted country could do it. If that drill were bound to a minimum 24 month warranty, imagine what that would change. Imagine if the law required that the manufacturer be identifiable (and reachable) or that 'no name' tools be backed by a bond provided by either the retailer or the manufacturer, so that they could be exchanged if they failed. Simple accountability could change the entire market.

Tell me what business a company is in that makes a power drill with a 90 day warranty. They are not in the tool business. They are just a contract manufacturer. If they aren't making cheap drills, they'll make something else.

Labels proclaiming 'Genuine Leather' are one of my pet peeves right now. Bonded leather is not leather by any measure of what made leather a valuable material. It is not Genuine Leather. We are lining our landfills with it however.

 

[Specs]

Didnt get by page one... that’s a weekend warrior tool... use it, return two days later for full refund. Or spend the $60-80 for the milwaukee 12.0amp beast I cant seem to kill after 5 years and never look back

 

[Knotgoalie]

Didnt get by page one... that’s a weekend warrior tool... use it, return two days later for full refund. Or spend the $60-80 for the milwaukee 12.0amp beast I cant seem to kill after 5 years and never look back

A "get the two holes drilled...yeah, it struggled but it worked" solution. Put it in the bottom drawer and maybe it will work better in five years after a good sleep?

 

[Specs]

Yeah i hated owning the “skil” equivalents that couldnt even mount curtains cause wood screws were too much

 

[dwasifar]

My biggest problem with these is not the price but the advertising. Calling it Pro-Series is false advertising and while you and I may recognize it, I watch others struggle, especially older folks who did most of their buying in a time that I can only assume was more restrictive about such advertising. How many of us here remember Sears' 'Good', 'Better', 'Best' sales model? Sears' would never have called their 'Good' Sears branded drill 'Pro-Series'. Pro was reserved for Craftsman.

Thank you for saying this. I was considering making a similar point, but you made it better, and I was getting tired of defending my original rant. Also a good point about Sears' "Good, Better, Best."

I think most people are accustomed to the current level of hyperbole that results in a drill made of barrel scrapings being named "Pro Series." So I don't think it's explicit false advertising, because everyone knows that marketing names are ********. But you could make a case that it's implicit or subliminal false advertising, in that the obviously untrue claim may not consciously influence the buyer, but nonetheless subconsciously influences him.

And even if you don't buy that argument, another side effect of rampant, unaccountable marketing hyperbole is that it devalues facts. If marketing can get away with misleading about quality in this way, it makes it a lot harder to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Sorting out fact from ******** is a big problem these days, not just in marketing but in general. A lot of people couldn't tell a fact from an opinion if their lives depended on it. I don't know which condition caused which. But I digress.

If that drill were bound to a minimum 24 month warranty, imagine what that would change. Imagine if the law required that the manufacturer be identifiable (and reachable) or that 'no name' tools be backed by a bond provided by either the retailer or the manufacturer, so that they could be exchanged if they failed. Simple accountability could change the entire market.

I like this idea, but imagine the resistance it would encounter - not only from the affected businesses, but also from people who would categorically oppose it on the premise that all regulation is bad.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Glad I could chime in. This is a topic I'm always up for a good rant on. I think we are shooting ourselves in the proverbial foot.

I think most people are accustomed to the current level of hyperbole that results in a drill made of barrel scrapings being named "Pro Series."

I would really like to believe this but it sure doesn't seem to play out that way in my experience. Even my own parents, both intelligent, professional people get pulled in, I suspect we all do, more than we would like to admit, especially when the item is something we are not super familiar with or when we are in a hurry. Case in point, the battery powered, law enforcement approved, password vault I was given by a concerned relative who knew I spent a lot of time online. Apparently the FBI had recommended we all use them.

There was a time when we decided we were tired of snake oil salesmen. We passed truth in advertising laws. I think it is very lazy of us to now say we all know better so it doesn't matter anymore. If a knowledgeable consumer can point at a claim and say 'that's false', it shouldn't be acceptable. That seems pretty clear to me. That should be the MINIMUM standard. If it were my store, my product, or my claim, I wouldn't expect to get away with it.

I like this idea, but imagine the resistance it would encounter - not only from the affected businesses, but also from people who would categorically oppose it on the premise that all regulation is bad.

How much more would a 24 month warranty cost than a 6 month warranty? Fifty cents? Five dollars? The impact on the bottom line would be minimal, the problem is everyone is fighting over cents, and with no 'minimum standard' for quality there is always going to be a competitor who figures out a way to make it cheaper. Next year it will be a 60 day warranty. Someone will save an additional .001 cents by using a lower quality grease in the switch and 12 cents by replacing the Teflon bearing with polyethylene. 'Not For Continuous Use' will be printed in small type right under 'Pro-Series'. How much more would an oiled bronze bearing have cost? There is plenty of room in the market for 'good', 'better', 'best', without resorting to 'toy'.

Folks can't have it both ways. It is the government's role to look after the common good while minimally infringing the rights of its citizens. I think we should all be able to agree on that. Asking that manufacturers be accountable for the products they sell hardly runs afoul of American values. Reasonable proposals to reduce waste can't possibly hurt American business, not if you consider the net impacts. And if we can't compete on the basis of wages, we aught to at least demand the same level of quality that we would ask of an American produced product with an American warranty.

I can think of a dozen ways poor quality products hurt the American household, it is much harder to come up with ways they help. Many of the obvious ones seem to fall apart on deeper inspection. So what of the family that only drills three holes a year? Borrow from a friend, social media makes that so easy today. Buy a hand drill, it's just three holes. Buy used. I didn't have access to a lot of money when I was a kid. Back then I bought used out of necessity. (As a side benefit they often came with someone to show me how to use them. ) I still have many of those tools. Compare that to the cheap tools I bought new when I first moved out on my own; most all of those are gone. They weren't actually so cheap.

I remember I bought one of those $15 Harbor Freight angle grinders. Yes I knew it was Harbor Freight, but at that point I couldn't foresee getting a lot of use out of it. As it turned out, I didn't end up needing it for the project at hand and put it on the shelf. Less than two years later, another plumbing project came up and I did need it. I pulled it out of the box and it didn't work, turned out it had never worked, not even at the factory. The mold had been cold and a chunk of the gear box had failed to cast. It was completely missing. I took it back to Harbor Freight but it was out of warranty. I tried to look up the manufacturer (this was before everything was given a Harbor Freight brand) but there was no record of them. How did my purchase of that tool benefit the American economy. How did my throwing it away? No accountability, no recourse.

Ironically, Harbor Freight actually cares more about your experience with their tools than Home Depot. Home Depot's tools, and much of their other inventory, are there on consignment. If they don't sell, they'll close them out and find something else for us to buy. Sears didn't make their tools either but at least they took ownership. Back in the day, if customers were having issues with a tool, that feedback went to the manufacturer and changes were made. They celebrated this idea. Their tools were made to be affordable, not cheap.

Ok, enough of my rant. I hope I haven't said anything controversial. We're in serious trouble if I have.

 

[dwasifar]

There was a time when we decided we were tired of snake oil salesmen. We passed truth in advertising laws. I think it is very lazy of us to now say we all know better so it doesn't matter anymore. If a knowledgeable consumer can point at a claim and say 'that's false', it shouldn't be acceptable. That seems pretty clear to me. That should be the MINIMUM standard. If it were my store, my product, or my claim, I wouldn't expect to get away with it.

Oh, I agree with you. Don't misunderstand; I was only describing how things are right now, and not in any way saying that's how they should be.

If "everyone knows" marketing hyperbole is sneaky ********, it's only a small step from that to the bullshitters using that as a defense argument. "Hey, everyone does it, and everyone knows everyone does it, so whaddya hassling ME for?"

How much more would a 24 month warranty cost than a 6 month warranty? Fifty cents? Five dollars? The impact on the bottom line would be minimal, the problem is everyone is fighting over cents, and with no 'minimum standard' for quality there is always going to be a competitor who figures out a way to make it cheaper. Next year it will be a 60 day warranty. Someone will save an additional .001 cents by using a lower quality grease in the switch and 12 cents by replacing the Teflon bearing with polyethylene. 'Not For Continuous Use' will be printed in small type right under 'Pro-Series'. How much more would an oiled bronze bearing have cost? There is plenty of room in the market for 'good', 'better', 'best', without resorting to 'toy'.

Folks can't have it both ways. It is the government's role to look after the common good while minimally infringing the rights of its citizens. I think we should all be able to agree on that. Asking that manufacturers be accountable for the products they sell hardly runs afoul of American values. Reasonable proposals to reduce waste can't possibly hurt American business, not if you consider the net impacts. And if we can't compete on the basis of wages, we aught to at least demand the same level of quality that we would ask of an American produced product with an American warranty.

Again, I completely agree with this, but the people who sell this stuff don't want the regulation, even if the cost is negligible, because every dime added to the price is going to cost them sales and profits. There's going to be some proportion of people who would have bought a new tool, but now will not. What those people do instead (borrow, buy used, do without, etc.) is irrelevant to the sellers; they only care that it cost them a sale.

So as soon as any such proposal looks like it's going to get traction, you'd have truckloads of corporate lobbying money pushing against it, and probably an astroturfed grass-roots movement of furious guys burning up Facebook about how their rights are being trodden into the dirt because the government is taking away their freedom to choose a cheap piece of ****.

In a perfect world, I would love to see better quality standards set, just as you describe. Unlike tariffs and trade wars, this approach sets up a game that American manufacturing can actually win, and benefits the consumer as well as the worker. Basically it ends the race to the bottom by defining a higher bottom. But you'll never get it past the bottom feeders.

 

[6PTsocket]

I only buy Makita and DeWalt power tools. They have never have been let down. Cheap junk is NOT a good value.

Not a good value for YOU. Your needs are not the same as other people's. DeWalt and Makita are overkill for the guy who owns a couple of screwdrivers, a pair of pliers and a hammer. The people that make DeWalt know this as well. That is why they make Black and Decker. You may find this hard to believe but there are people that call plumbers, carpenters, roofers,electricians, etc. when something goes wrong. They do minimal work and drilling a hole for a picture or curtain rod is about as far as they go. They do not need good tools for 2 or 3 holes a year in wood or plaster. Those people do not follow GJ and spend little time worrying whether this drill has a better chuck than that one.

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[DadsTools]

Yeah i hated owning the “skil” equivalents that couldnt even mount curtains cause wood screws were too much

Yeah, I agree. I bought those red Skil brand years ago too before the C3 junk. They were trash too.

 

[Specs]

Speaking of hyperbole, what about the TV advertisements that depict a product like its the greatest thing ever... might as well be Toy commercials where some of imagination is required to complete “the picture”

And I mean any Hasbro, Kenner, Mattel where a toy can only do 3 separate things and all of a sudden you need a race track, more toys, whatevers.

All this reminds me of the mach series at craftsman... more items for people who want a band aid tool cause they truly didnt want to pay to play. I mean why pit craftsman against “Mach” tools... gonna see if i find some youtubes. It bothers me that there was also the EVO tool series too... no wonder sears had trouble

 

[Kev442]

60 years ago, a manufacturer did research on exactly how much joe homeowner used a 1/4" corded drill. It was 12 minutes across a lifetime. Thus the B&D and Skil level of drill was born. Now it is HF and Tool Shop 12.99 drills.
All this ranting and 80% of purchasers will buy the $12-28 corded drill and it will work perfectly fine for those 12 minutes. Anyone who needs a drill often is not buying a $28 drill.
Except me. I have bought a couple of Tool Shop $12.99 drills with a two year warranty and they have many hours on them now and still running, which allows me to "save" my Milwaukee for the real jobs. Putting a wire wheel in my Milwaukee and running it for two hours just seems wrong to me...

 

[American Locomotive]

I guess what I really meant, was that "time is valuable", but if someone has the time and inclination, to spend a a day and a half , troubleshooting, procuring and installing a replacement part, in a 40 year old power tool, they are indeed fortunate, to have that choice.

Many just have another weekend job that they need to get done, so that they can move on to the next one, since the subsequent work week, is only two days away.

You act as if replacing parts on a power tool is some kind giant ordeal. I can yank a V8 out of a truck in less than 2 hours. Replacing the trigger switch on a drill, or a gear on a miter saw is a 20 minute exercise in triviality. For some tools - like a $27 drill it's generally not worth trying to fix. On the other hand for something like a $400 miter saw, it's usually worth trying to fix.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't make $400 in the 20 minutes it would take to fix a drill, nor do I have enough money to throw around $400 every other day.

 

[mfewtrail]

60 years ago, a manufacturer did research on exactly how much joe homeowner used a 1/4" corded drill. It was 12 minutes across a lifetime.

If they only needed it for 12 minutes that long ago, the average owner now probably needs it maybe half that. The 12 minutes on my HF cheap drill has long expired. I'm always surprised that it still works. I cut the back part of the keyless chuck off of it a couple of weeks ago. The cheap plastic/metal washer there stripped, so now it requires a wrench or pliers to tighten the chuck. Not a big deal since I usually just leave a wire wheel in it for light cleanup duty.


As for everyone talking about repairing cheap stuff....I actually like tearing down items to determine what failed, whether I intend on fixing them or not. Even if I can't fix it or if fixing it isn't cost-effective, I at least end up with some good hardware, switches, and misc. other components to re-purpose.

 

[Parrothead]

While it’s been mentioned here in this thread, everyone isn’t on Garage Journal. The truth is, I have neighbors that have asked to borrow pliers!

I’ve been the part of a purchase of a similar lesser quality drill. It was a Skil bought about 15 years ago. To make a long story shorter, a girlfriend at the time needed some carpet repair for an apartment she was leaving. Fresh out of college, first job, paying off student loans and broke. I was in better shape financially, but not by much and I wasn’t buying it for her. So in order to get her deposit back on her apartment I needed to drill a few holes in the concrete floor and attach a new, wider threshold. The difference between $20 and $30 then was significant to both of us. It didn’t need to live long, and if we broke up she’d probably never use it again. In that instance it needed to drill 5 holes as cheaply as possible. Did she need a better drill? Nope! And we still have it, I married her. lol.

Point being, the motivation and people’s needs vary widely. Maybe the guy with the switch need to drill 5 more holes for his girlfriend and it will never be used again. A new switch is still the cheapest route.

Cheap disposable tools absolutely have their place, and honestly I’m glad they’re around.

Another example. I was finishing up a job out of town and I forgot my jig saw. I had about 15 more cuts I needed to make and since mine was over 4 hours away...I went to Walmart, bought the cheapest jig saw they had and finished those cuts. I’ve used it a couple more times over the years and it went in my travel tools until it broke, well the housing cracked making it unusable. Served its purpose and I’d do the same thing again if the situation required it. I have no need for another DeWalt or Bosch jig saw, nor the expense.

There’s a place for most tools, otherwise they wouldn’t make them

 

[Specs]

If i look around my house, ill find that skil drill... i wonder if it would survive another task... mom bought it and i kinda inherited it. You guys have a point about only needing it for 12 minutes, but seeing i like doing Simpson strongtie projects, (up to 3 benches) that milwaukee has paid for itself. And honestly, made from global parts or not, it works.

Any opinions on the LI-ION variants of the drills? I like my earthquake electro impact 1/2” for tire changes but i know its not a 1200ft lbs... more like 250-300 and thats 80% charge

 

[nh_yota]

I'm getting a kick out of this thread because the majority of Christmas gifts received from my mother over the past 15 years came from QVC or HSN shopping channels.

 

[zendriver]

You act as if replacing parts on a power tool is some kind giant ordeal. I can yank a V8 out of a truck in less than 2 hours. Replacing the trigger switch on a drill, or a gear on a miter saw is a 20 minute exercise in triviality. For some tools - like a $27 drill it's generally not worth trying to fix. On the other hand for something like a $400 miter saw, it's usually worth trying to fix.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't make $400 in the 20 minutes it would take to fix a drill, nor do I have enough money to throw around $400 every other day.

To each his own, and while I'll agree with you that replacing the switch is probably not that difficult that was not my point.

Presuming the switch is still available you have to order it, pay for it (maybe up to $30 with shipping) wait for it to arrive and then install it, meanwhile not having a Saw available to to complete a project.

If the project can be delayed, that's fine, and if one cannot afford to buy replacement saw, they really don't have much choice.

Personally, since I work 60 hours a week my off time is valuable, so I might just get a replacement saw to complete the job.

Then I would have a new saw for the next one, but I tend to buy less expensive equipment, just for that reason, fortunately I don't have much trouble with.



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