Check a Rookie's Work?

[Garage Junkie]

I installed this subpanel because the main panel was completely full. Other than the clothes dryer circuit that I moved to the sub panel, this is an all gas house, so the panel really isn't all that strained, just full. Rather than double up circuits on breakers, I decided to just make more space.

Would like to eventually add a 40 or 50 amp circuit to the garage for a welder someday, another 20 circuit for more outlets, and two 20 amp circuits for the basement.

Would really appreciate it if one of the experts on here would take a glance and see if I did anything incorrectly that I need to change. The only thing I know that is odd is that I ran an additional ground to a rod outside even though people have told me in this application I could have just bonded to the foundation ground.

Appreciate any thoughts you may have. Thanks!

Overall views:

Connections in the main panel:

The Sub Panel:

 

[D.J.]

Looks ok to my untrained eye. Just astehetics only. I am not an electrician!

 

[Aceman]

Your pictures are blurry so I couldn't make out all the details.

1. How does your ground wire terminate in the main panel?
2. Did you leave out the green bonding screw in the sub?
3. Where's the ground wire going out of the top of the sub panel?
4. A main lug subpanel is all that's required, but using a main breaker is fine. But usually more expensive.

Overall, looks good.

 

[Garage Junkie]

Your pictures are blurry so I couldn't make out all the details.

1. How does your ground wire terminate in the main panel?
2. Did you leave out the green bonding screw in the sub?
3. Where's the ground wire going out of the top of the sub panel?
4. A main lug subpanel is all that's required, but using a main breaker is fine. But usually more expensive.

Overall, looks good.

Yeah, sorry about the cell phone pics.

1. ground comes into the main and is terminated into the left side common bus bar just below the afci you see in the pic. There is a small ground bus buried in there as well that I could move some things around and connect to if needed. I chose this route because there was room.

2. Yes.

3. It goes outside to a single ground rod I drove into the ground- again not sure if that is really necessary in this application. Also not sure if it is wrong to do. What I was told is that if this were truly a separate sub, it would be required and only one rod would be considered adequate for this area. (upstate, ny)

4. This was one of those Homeline package deals with 6-20amp breakers included as well- it was cheaper!

 

[Garage Junkie]

As a side note, while doing this work I discovered a loose connection with one of the 20 amp breakers. So I went ahead and checked everything else and found 2 more that were loose. These weren't just loose, they literally fell out of the breaker lug like they had never been tightened down. This panel has been in service nearly 2 years!

 

[frank_c]

code allows the cables exposed from the top of the box up?

i've got a surface mount sub that i plan on running a couple circuits from and i was wondering if i had to put the new lines out into conduit until they reach the floor joist above. your pics makes me think i'll have no problem doing so.

 

[rockwithjason]

the work looks really good. nice job taking the time to do things in a neat manner. the only thing i could pick out is about the additional ground rod. make sure that all of the grounds are bonded together with no splices in the wire.

 

[walrus]

3. It goes outside to a single ground rod I drove into the ground- again not sure if that is really necessary in this application. Also not sure if it is wrong to do. What I was told is that if this were truly a separate sub, it would be required and only one rod would be considered adequate for this area. (upstate, ny)!

Its not needed, and it would require 2 gnd rods if it was needed. Is the ground bar in the sub hooked to the ground/neutral bar in the main?

 

[bjcouche]

Overall, excellent job, you even used the plastic anti chafe nuts on your conduit. You don't need a ground rod for a subpanel in this application. If this subpanel were in a detached garage, then you would under most circumstances. Being that you went through all the trouble of driving the rod and connecting it up, I would move it to your main panel. I don't know if it's specifically disallowed to have a ground rod on a subpanel like this, but it would be more conventional to have 2 ground rods tied to the main panel. I am assuming that your main panel has only 1 ground rod. If the wire isn't long enough though, you aren't supposed to splice it...
The only other question is the wire size and breaker size that you used. It looks like you used 6 or 8awg wire with a 100A breaker in the main panel. I want to know the wire size and type, THHN, THWN, TEW, SER, RHW, or what? There is nothing wrong with having a 100A breaker in the subpanel with a smaller feeder breaker and wires. The 100A breaker in the subpanel just becomes a "disconnect means" instead of a disconnect means and breaker function.

Brian Couchene

 

[Garage Junkie]

Its not needed, and it would require 2 gnd rods if it was needed. Is the ground bar in the sub hooked to the ground/neutral bar in the main?

yes the ground in the sub is hooked to the main- its the #6 going down off the sub ground bus, through the conduit and up the left side of the main.

Should I just remove the ground rod and extra ground then? Does it hurt anything to leave it?

 

[Garage Junkie]

Overall, excellent job, you even used the plastic anti chafe nuts on your conduit. You don't need a ground rod for a subpanel in this application. If this subpanel were in a detached garage, then you would under most circumstances. Being that you went through all the trouble of driving the rod and connecting it up, I would move it to your main panel. I don't know if it's specifically disallowed to have a ground rod on a subpanel like this, but it would be more conventional to have 2 ground rods tied to the main panel. I am assuming that your main panel has only 1 ground rod. If the wire isn't long enough though, you aren't supposed to splice it...
The only other question is the wire size and breaker size that you used. It looks like you used 6 or 8awg wire with a 100A breaker in the main panel. I want to know the wire size and type, THHN, THWN, TEW, SER, RHW, or what? There is nothing wrong with having a 100A breaker in the subpanel with a smaller feeder breaker and wires. The 100A breaker in the subpanel just becomes a "disconnect means" instead of a disconnect means and breaker function.

Brian Couchene

Thanks Brian.

The main already has two grounds going into the foundation, so it really doesn't need more I guess, though with my builder I'm taking nothing for granted at this point. It is long enough that I could pull it out of the sub and bring it into the main...

I used #3 Cu THHN- had to hunt around town a bit to find it. That's the part of all this electrical stuff that escapes me- I had a 100 amp panel and a 100 amp breaker readily available. #3 Cu is apparently the appropriate size cable for 100 amp branches and sub-feeds. And if you go with the more readily available #4 Cu or Al, you have start de-rating- so why wouldn't #3 Cu be kept on the shelf? Grrr... A friend even gave me #2 Al for free, but that wouldn't do either. Then there's the hours of research to figure all of this stuff out....

 

[bjcouche]

You are correct, 3awg copper is good for 100A at 75C per NEC 310.13A. Now, what's the breaker termination temperature rating? Square D QO breakers are rated for 75C but I am not sure about others. If the breaker is only rated for 60C then you can only use the wire to it's 60C rating or 85A. I probably wouldn't have went with a 100A feed anyhow, as that's lots for a subpanel. I might have just went with 4awg which is easy to find and just sized the breaker down to match the wire. If you were set on 100A, you could have went a size bigger with easier to find 2awg and been fine too. 2awg might have saved you in gas money driving around trying to locate 3awg...

Brian

 

[mrbreezeet1]

Garage Junkie,
That square D Homeline Sub you got, So it comes with the 100 amp main, and some 20 Amp breakers. Does it come with both the ground buss and the neutral bus, or did you have to get them separate?
Do you happen to know the model # of the panel?
Thanks, Tony

 

[Garage Junkie]

Out in Ohio right now, so I can't get you a model number, but I picked it up at HD.

It came with everything but a ground bus- that was only a couple bucks to add. They were stocked right there with everything else.

 

[mrbreezeet1]

Out in Ohio right now, so I can't get you a model number, but I picked it up at HD.

It came with everything but a ground bus- that was only a couple bucks to add. They were stocked right there with everything else.

Ok Well post it when you get back if you think about it.
This one I have might be OK, I had a load on it,and turned the breaker off, and saw a spark for a second at the buss. It is a new breaker.
But I might have moved the breaker a bit, when I turned it off, and with the load on it, it might be normal.
Thanks, Tony

 

[Garage Junkie]

Ok Well post it when you get back if you think about it.
This one I have might be OK, I had a load on it,and turned the breaker off, and saw a spark for a second at the buss. It is a new breaker.
But I might have moved the breaker a bit, when I turned it off, and with the load on it, it might be normal.
Thanks, Tony

Not sure what your situation is and whether you really need to replace anything, but here's what I did:

I used this:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&productId=100197589&R=100197589

And this:

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers/Square-D-By-Schneider-Electric/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm0kZ683/R-202353315/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

 

[Garage Junkie]

You are correct, 3awg copper is good for 100A at 75C per NEC 310.13A. Now, what's the breaker termination temperature rating? Square D QO breakers are rated for 75C but I am not sure about others. If the breaker is only rated for 60C then you can only use the wire to it's 60C rating or 85A. I probably wouldn't have went with a 100A feed anyhow, as that's lots for a subpanel. I might have just went with 4awg which is easy to find and just sized the breaker down to match the wire. If you were set on 100A, you could have went a size bigger with easier to find 2awg and been fine too. 2awg might have saved you in gas money driving around trying to locate 3awg...

Brian

This is what I describe as electrician humor....

Had I just used an 80 amp breaker at 60 C rating it would have given me, what, like, 60 amps usuable. So then I may as well just use a 50 amp breaker and some left over lamp cord and been done with it!

 

[mrbreezeet1]

Not sure what your situation is and whether you really need to replace anything, but here's what I did:

I used this:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&productId=100197589&R=100197589

And this:

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers/Square-D-By-Schneider-Electric/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm0kZ683/R-202353315/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

OK Thanks,
That's pretty reasonable price wise too, with the 20 amp breakers and all.
Looks like it already has the neutral buss, and you just don't bond it, and add your ground buss.
Yeah, I might just go ahead and replace mine, I bookmarked the page.
Thanks, Tony

 

[smilezrcool]

I thought that all exposed romex had to be protected from mechanical damage. I thought no exposed romex.

 

[sberry]

I thought that all exposed romex had to be protected from mechanical damage. I thought no exposed romex.

It does it damage is likely, above the panels out of the way is fine. I will have to say, nice neat job, way different than mine look. Usually like spaghetti in a blender. I am a little neater when I do for others but here myself or one of my men are the service and we make a lot of changes, almost continuous.
In short order I am going to replace a panel, from 8 spaces to 20, by moving the breaker location in the main and taking a few tangles out will probably have enough wire to reach the new main lugs in larger panel. Was poor and then some when I installed it kind of knowing it might come to changing it out and now want to add half a dozen circuits. In the same situation, its not overloaded just short of spaces for dedicated equipment. There are 3 accessible panels to choose from, one, the 8 is full, the other 2 it would fill so best option is to replace. Could re-arrange and add a 6 space over it but then would be full again anyway, be cheap though as I have the materials but back to square one and more retro fits should I need to add as unlikely as it would be. Never know though, a few extra spaces can be advantage in some circumstances. Especially in a shop where dedicated circuits are the ideal. I am always near a panel or existing pipe or can run one easily. I could combine several circuits but about the only savings is a breaker. I got between 100 and 110 breakers even though the power consumed is modest but never have to use multiple loads from one circuit.

 

[bmwpower]

Is the main panel full?

 

[mrbreezeet1]

Is the main panel full?

That's what he said......LOL

I installed this subpanel because the main panel was completely full.

Tony

 

[MoFoJoe]

Looks like a proud piece of workmanship to me.

I would like to make a suggestion or perhaps a statement about a "pet peeve" of mine inregards to circuit continuity using conductor identification. When I install a service, especially if using SE cable. I always, from the servicehead into the meter socket and onto the main breaker lugs terminate the red or red tracer conductor into whichever connector would represent the righthand side busbar This way in most cases, provided you plan out your branch breaker layout, any 240/120V circuits can be layed down as black/red with red actually maintaining (red leg/tracer continuity)

In your pics, assuming the SE cable's red traced conductor entering from the meter socket represents the righthand side busbar ( I cant tell by the pic) you only have to reverse the black/red conductors on the lowest DP breaker on the righthand side in the main panel and move your red ID tape to the other hot leg in your subpanel.
The breaker you added in the main panel to feed the subpanel, the red is on the correct leg.
Perhaps if you look at the DP branch breaker you added in the subpanel as it sits now, you'll see its red conductor doesnt correspond to the conductor you ID'd as red w/ elec tape

lol, I hope I was able to convey my explaination.

 

[swaterbenny]

Looks like a proud piece of workmanship to me.

I would like to make a suggestion or perhaps a statement about a "pet peeve" of mine inregards to circuit continuity using conductor identification. When I install a service, especially if using SE cable. I always, from the servicehead into the meter socket and onto the main breaker lugs terminate the red or red tracer conductor into whichever connector would represent the righthand side busbar This way in most cases, provided you plan out your branch breaker layout, any 240/120V circuits can be layed down as black/red with red actually maintaining (red leg/tracer continuity)

In your pics, assuming the SE cable's red traced conductor entering from the meter socket represents the righthand side busbar ( I cant tell by the pic) you only have to reverse the black/red conductors on the lowest DP breaker on the righthand side in the main panel and move your red ID tape to the other hot leg in your subpanel.
The breaker you added in the main panel to feed the subpanel, the red is on the correct leg.
Perhaps if you look at the DP branch breaker you added in the subpanel as it sits now, you'll see its red conductor doesnt correspond to the conductor you ID'd as red w/ elec tape

lol, I hope I was able to convey my explaination.

It's definitely a bad idea to mix up the red and black electricity!

 

[Garage Junkie]

LOL, be nice Swaterbenny. I know what he is saying- we treat three phase at work this way to the extent possible. Even with the best intentions though, it's still 50/50 if a newly wired motor is going to spin the right direction.

Does it really matter? No. Does it demonstrate a level of professionalism and attention to detail the sets one apart from the average? Yes.

 

[swaterbenny]

LOL, be nice Swaterbenny. I know what he is saying- we treat three phase at work this way to the extent possible. Even with the best intentions though, it's still 50/50 if a newly wired motor is going to spin the right direction.

Does it really matter? No. Does it demonstrate a level of professionalism and attention to detail the sets one apart from the average? Yes.

Ha ha all in good fun. Your panel looks real nice. I'm an apprentice electrician in industrial/commercial. I just thought it was funny, because once all the breakers are in you won't have any clue what bus bar is what.

Three phase is definitely just a guess with motor rotation.

Ben

 

[Garage Junkie]

Covers on and cleaned up the coax-

Left the extra ground for now, will probably pull it out rather than have to explain it's existance later.

 

[Garage Junkie]

And no, I'm not going to flip the door over so that they both open the same direction....

 

[RAPID49]

Is the ground wire from the main to the sub suposed to be green ?

 

[electrodude]

Is the ground wire from the main to the sub suposed to be green ?

No, it's not a ground wire, it's an equipment bonding jumper.

The grounded conductor (neutral) in the sub is electrically isolated from the grounding conductors, what that means is that the main bonding jumper (or screw that is included with the panel) is not installed at the subpanel, but an equipment bonding jumper (wire) connects the two neutral busses.

 

[MoFoJoe]

Ha ha all in good fun. Your panel looks real nice. I'm an apprentice electrician in industrial/commercial. I just thought it was funny, because once all the breakers are in you won't have any clue what bus bar is what.

Three phase is definitely just a guess with motor rotation.

Ben

Hmmmm, lets see,then you never looked @ a busbar configuration diagram usually located on the inside of the panelboard cover. It give you the breaker position number and corresponding busbar connection. Plus w/ a little more experince you'll learn that if you go (leftside) top to bottom, breaker #1 is left busbar, breaker #2 is right busbar, #3 is left busbar etc. naturally this is for 220/120V single phase
* The above is based on the Op's SquareD Homeline panels, busbar configurations very by manufactures, hence the reference to the inside cover busbar diagram

How do you think I was able from a just picture know which red wires were not connected to the "righthand sided" busbar...all the breakers are in

 

[MoFoJoe]

And no, I'm not going to flip the door over so that they both open the same direction....

I dont think you could flip the door, it would place the main breaker cover opening up top, no?

...my bad, isnt that a panel that the dead front separates from the door section?

 

[Garage Junkie]

Yeah, I could probably drill the rivets so that I could leave the dead front like it is and flip the cover over. ...but I'm not gonna!