Check me on recessed lighting code question

[jtbinvalrico]

This is a new house, completed about 5 months ago in Hillsborough County, Florida. The kitchen has nine recessed lights in a square pattern in the ceiling. Flipped the switch today and only 5 of the 9 came on. It wasn't the bulbs, and a look at the square layout suggested that the 4 unlit ones were the last in a chain. I've become quite familiar with what I'd describe as a decline in the workmanship exhibited by some in their trades.....so I had no problem assuming that a wire nut had popped loose up there.

Once in the attic, I saw the foot prints in the insulation around that area and remembered that the AC guys had been back out to troubleshoot some of the registers. I figured that one of them had given the wire near the can a good kick and loosened the connection, downing the 4 lights. Of course, it had been weeks since they were out, and the lights worked okay since then, but maybe it finally popped loose.

I start looking at these cans and see that for each of them the romex simply enters a square hole on the side of the box. There's no clamps. If you yank the wire, or kick it, it could easily disturb the wire nuts in the box......They're all like this

I've done a bit of electrical......but is this some kind of exception that I'm not aware of? I thought romex entering any kind of box had to be clamped. Someone set me straight. I'm gonna have to call the builder out to fix all 25 of these things. That'll be a big PIA because I'm gonna have to go behind them and make sure they did them correctly.......on a new, permitted, supposedly inspected house, supposedly wired by pros.

Pic below is an example of one. Aren't those the knockouts on top of the box? That wire is loose and just slips in there.

 

[cybrdyke]

Many downlights have safety devices in them, like thermal protectors and insulation detection. Your contractor may have inadvertently messed up one of them. Investigate exactly what the model of the fixture is and ask the manufacturer if it has such a feature.
CD

 

[mm08822]

This is a new house, completed about 5 months ago in Hillsborough County, Florida. The kitchen has nine recessed lights in a square pattern in the ceiling. Flipped the switch today and only 5 of the 9 came on. It wasn't the bulbs, and a look at the square layout suggested that the 4 unlit ones were the last in a chain. I've become quite familiar with what I'd describe as a decline in the workmanship exhibited by some in their trades.....so I had no problem assuming that a wire nut had popped loose up there.

Once in the attic, I saw the foot prints in the insulation around that area and remembered that the AC guys had been back out to troubleshoot some of the registers. I figured that one of them had given the wire near the can a good kick and loosened the connection, downing the 4 lights. Of course, it had been weeks since they were out, and the lights worked okay since then, but maybe it finally popped loose.

I start looking at these cans and see that for each of them the romex simply enters a square hole on the side of the box. There's no clamps. If you yank the wire, or kick it, it could easily disturb the wire nuts in the box......They're all like this

I've done a bit of electrical......but is this some kind of exception that I'm not aware of? I thought romex entering any kind of box had to be clamped. Someone set me straight. I'm gonna have to call the builder out to fix all 25 of these things. That'll be a big PIA because I'm gonna have to go behind them and make sure they did them correctly.......on a new, permitted, supposedly inspected house, supposedly wired by pros.

Pic below is an example of one. Aren't those the knockouts on top of the box? That wire is loose and just slips in there.

Most fixtures have multiple provision methods for cable entry. The rectangular holes you see cables running into are typical. Inside beyond the rectangular holes is a plate that grips the nm cable jacket and prevents cable removal without tools. Your one fixture shown looks typical of this. Traditional knockouts and cable connectors can also be used but not so much any more. AC cable would for certain use these.

The cables inside the junction box are probably terminated into WAGO connectors instead of wirenuts. These are spring loaded one-way connectors that join all neutrals, hots and neutrals together - separately of course. They can either work real nicely or be a big pain the the a$$.

At the "first" non-working light, open the junction box from the attic. Flex the black spring steel to remove the j-box cover. Check for voltage and splice quality. If it looks good and no power, follow the cable back to the "last" working fixture. Inspect for damage along the way. Open the last working fixture and check those connections.

And make sure those fixtures are TC rated - rated for direct contact with insulation. You will probably have to pull the trim and bulb from one to get the mfr part number and/or read label for TC.

 

[DirtyJersey]

Romex doesn't appear to be stapled. You could have the spring loaded connector pulled out, especially if anyone tripped over the wire.
If thats the case, simply wirenut the stranded wires with the romex wire. Blk-blk wht-wht grn-grn.


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[jtbinvalrico]

I removed the spring-loaded cover on five of the boxes as I looked for the suspected loose connection.....I found it in the fifth one. For each of those five there was no means whatsoever of retaining, clamping, or securing the romex entering the box. They're empty boxes with no springs or mechanisms of any kind in them. The romex simply enters a square hole and then is wire nutted black to black, white to white....Wire nuts. No other means of connection. You can freely move that romex in and out of that box as they left it; the romex is not clamped or secured in any way at or in the box.

Is there any way that this is code compliant? I want to make sure I'm not missing some exception before I call the builder out to fix it.

It just looks to me as if they shot the romex through the square hole (not sure what it's otherwise for) and skipped the two obvious knockouts on top of the box (one in and one out for daisy chaining them, I assume). The romex is resting on a bare, sharp metal edge as it enters that box. That can't be a correct installation.

 

[reader2580]

Electrical inspectors don't look at every single connection in a house. It would take hours to remove every switch, receptacle, and fixture to verify proper wiring. I would think the NM would have been run to recessed cans at rough in so the inspector could have caught it then although they may have assumed there is an internal clamp.

 

[Cairo94507]

All you have to do is see the people building homes these days and that gives you a big clue as to the problem. Here in CA a lot of them are non-English speakers as their first language. Their method is to slam it together as quickly as possible and move on. The "building inspectors" seem pretty useless 9 out of 10 times. They gamble their job is not going to be that 1 they actually spend 10 minutes looking at. All that romex should have been secured to prevent it being pulled out accidentally. Sorry you had this problem.

 

[teamextreme]

The small openings in the boxes that the romex enters that you are concerned with are perfectly fine and are common place in pretty much any recessed can for at least 15 years or more that I can remember. The stapling of the romex is another story and obviously should have been present.

 

[DirtyJersey]

The cover holds the romex in that square hole. With cover snapped closed you shouldn't be anle too easily move it.
Personally, I like to use button connectors in the knockouts.

You have older cans, newer ones have the spring loaded push in connectors, no need too twist and wire nut em.

Glad you found the loose connection!

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[mm08822]

I removed the spring-loaded cover on five of the boxes as I looked for the suspected loose connection.....I found it in the fifth one. For each of those five there was no means whatsoever of retaining, clamping, or securing the romex entering the box. They're empty boxes with no springs or mechanisms of any kind in them. The romex simply enters a square hole and then is wire nutted black to black, white to white....Wire nuts. No other means of connection. You can freely move that romex in and out of that box as they left it; the romex is not clamped or secured in any way at or in the box.

Is there any way that this is code compliant? I want to make sure I'm not missing some exception before I call the builder out to fix it.

It just looks to me as if they shot the romex through the square hole (not sure what it's otherwise for) and skipped the two obvious knockouts on top of the box (one in and one out for daisy chaining them, I assume). The romex is resting on a bare, sharp metal edge as it enters that box. That can't be a correct installation.

Post a picture of inside a jbox where cable enters showing no means to retain cable.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Post a picture of inside a jbox where cable enters showing no means to retain cable.

Climbed up there and took some more pix. So it appears that there's a means of retaining the cable, but the installer defeated it by bending it so far into the box as to render it useless. Isn't the point of this tab to be pushed in enough so that it binds the romex, preventing pull out? A tour of the recessed lighting available at Lowes revealed all kinds of springs and tabs and plastic fittings intended to stop cable pullout.

What's the fix? Can I bend them back a bit against the romex? Do they need to be redone and sent through one of the other entrances properly?........Or should I just forget it and wonder if a workman kicked a wire nut loose the next time he's in the attic?

Here's a closeup pic. That tab doesn't touch the romex. The wire goes behind it and moves in and out of the box freely.

 

[mm08822]

Climbed up there and took some more pix. So it appears that there's a means of retaining the cable, but the installer defeated it by bending it so far into the box as to render it useless. Isn't the point of this tab to be pushed in enough so that it binds the romex, preventing pull out? A tour of the recessed lighting available at Lowes revealed all kinds of springs and tabs and plastic fittings intended to stop cable pullout.

What's the fix? Can I bend them back a bit against the romex? Do they need to be redone and sent through one of the other entrances properly?........Or should I just forget it and wonder if a workman kicked a wire nut loose the next time he's in the attic?

Here's a closeup pic. That tab doesn't touch the romex. The wire goes behind it and moves in and out of the box freely.

If they are all like that, then it is no accident. I would call the builder and send him this pic and say you want all high hats checked, rx clamps where existing is defeated and bring some staples with a hammer. Go thru all 25 fixtures. Maybe start looking for hack work.

If he gives you excuses/delays, tell him you will contact inspectorS and make sure they all bust his chops for every trade at the next development.

 

[DirtyJersey]

Bend it back against the romex.

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[jtbinvalrico]

Thanks to all. I'll let my home warranty guy know about it and ask him to send someone up to check them out and adjust as necessary........then I'll go up after that guy and make sure they've been done.

Crazy.....Whenever one trade comes in to clean up after another I get these "Yeah. I'm not surprised" looks. Has to stink cleaning up someone else's half-done work.

 

[ard]

Thanks to all. I'll let my home warranty guy know about it and ask him to send someone up to check them out and adjust as necessary........then I'll go up after that guy and make sure they've been done.

Crazy.....Whenever one trade comes in to clean up after another I get these "Yeah. I'm not surprised" looks. Has to stink cleaning up someone else's half-done work.

Better, send them a certified letter citing defects both identified and possibly still undiscovered- and demand that they open ever light, inspect and fix those that have not been properly installed. What else is buried in places you havent looked?

Paper trail. Not a phone call.

 

[lateapex911]

Thanks to all. I'll let my home warranty guy know about it and ask him to send someone up to check them out and adjust as necessary........then I'll go up after that guy and make sure they've been done.

Crazy.....Whenever one trade comes in to clean up after another I get these "Yeah. I'm not surprised" looks. Has to stink cleaning up someone else's half-done work.

I'm not surprised. I've watched union guys leave open connections, boxes uncovered, improper sized connectors, etc etc. Part of this is our fault, sort of, in our never ending race to get the cheapest job. (I'm not suggesting you did) But the trades are often trying to be competitive in their bids, and estimate tight hours, then have to go out and get it doe in those tight hours. In order to not get yelled at by the boss, workmanship gets sloppy and rushed.

OR, your builder put them in a bind timewise, happens all the time. Guys are scheduled to come on X day and finish 4 days later. But the house isn't ready on X day, and they still have to finish on the original completion date. They work late, and rush elements. The builder doesn't know, or care...he assumes it will be fine, and that "code" isn't important in certain areas....

 

[reader2580]

What's the fix? Can I bend them back a bit against the romex? Do they need to be redone and sent through one of the other entrances properly?........Or should I just forget it and wonder if a workman kicked a wire nut loose the next time he's in the attic?

Here's a closeup pic. That tab doesn't touch the romex. The wire goes behind it and moves in and out of the box freely.

If I was repairing this I would put a proper clamp in one of the knockouts and then bend the tab back over the now empty hole.

 

[75gmck25]

All of the inexpensive can lights I've installed recently have black plastic inserts (3?) in the side next to one cover, and they will hold the cable. You pop a little cover open to access two springy black plastic prongs inside, and then push the Romex through the prongs from the side or the top into the box. The prongs spring in against the cable sheath and don't allow the cable to pull out of the box. Then you clip the metal cover back on the side to keep the black plastic insert in place. Its a very simple installation.

Bruce