Child Labor Laws & Power Tools

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

I once saw a video of a kid maybe 12-14 in some foreign country operating a metal lathe. My first thought was this guy is going to be one hell of a machinist by the time he's 18. I'm sure the child labor laws have prevented kids from injury or death but they've prevented them from learning valuable skills if they were trained safely and properly.

I ran a South Bend 10" tool room lathe in 8th grade shop class making a center punch "turning between centers" amongst other things, 13 years old.. Also ran a metal shaper, did hand forging work, etc. In 7th grade I made a couple of projects on a wood lathe.. We could not run the table saw because around that time someone in the school corp. got serious about table saw blade guards.. The old saw we had didn't have one, so we were not allowed to use it unless the shop teacher was right there with us.. The year before, as I understand it, students were allowed to use it without direct supervision..but of course with proper training. A year later as a freshman in high school, I was on 13' South Bend lathes, running horizontal mills (Cincinnati, Van Norman), large shapers, and a Bridgeport vertical mill.. Much of it without direct supervision of the teacher but with good dose of teaching and warnings..

The second thing I'll say.. I've seen plenty of "grown ups" I would not want touching my mower, let alone using it under power..

Good luck to the OP getting your son gainfully (both monetarily and skill wise) employed this summer..

 

[turfgnome]

Ha, there's a funny one. He can't operate a saw, but he's probably been cutting the grass since he was 12. Could mow the neighborhood for money as well, but don't put a drill in his hand, LOL.

Even summer mowing jobs will be cut back now for insurance. If someone under 18 gets hurt while mowing your yard and lawyer could have a field day with you. Your homeowners insurance would not have to cover the injury and insurance companies will not insure anyone under 18 for anything as a minor can not sign a binding contract. I could not even have my nephew work as a shop rat at my business. The sad thing is his dad and I grew up in an engine shop, never got hurt either.

 

[Rock knocker]

Even summer mowing jobs will be cut back now for insurance. If someone under 18 gets hurt while mowing your yard and lawyer could have a field day with you. Your homeowners insurance would not have to cover the injury and insurance companies will not insure anyone under 18 for anything as a minor can not sign a binding contract

Why do you say that? These aren't new laws, they have been in effect for almost thirty years. Was summer lawn mowing affect twentynine, nine or two years ago? Why is it affected now? These laws only apply to those jobs covered by OSHA.

And why wouldn't home owners cover it? You have a source on that Chicken Little?

 

[EricP]

Why would you want you're son in a potentially dangerous work environment? I'm sure the owner is a straight up guy, (he did his due diligence) but in many cases young people are put in dangerous work conditions-situations with little or no training or supervision. I recall some of the dumb-*** stuff contractors have had kids do, and in retrospect realize how dangerous (life threatening or life changing injuries) some stuff is. And the kids often are dumb enough to go along with it, cause they don't know better. Go up a 40 foot ladder, - no fall protection but he's 17 and invincible. Operate a table saw with no training, use a jack hammer with no ear protection, demo work no protection, etc, seen it all.


Gary

Gary, that's a fair question. I have known the owner (small operation less than 10 employees) for many years and he and I had a discussion about what work my son would do for him. He wasn't going to run the tablesaw, shaper, moulder, or use any other machinery that can quickly maim. He wanted him to be a gofer around the shop and help with on-site installations meaning a lot of hauling supplies while the experienced guys hung crown, casings, baseboards, etc.. We were hoping he could legally use a palm sander, nailgun, drill press, and a few other things that we both feel he can handle. However the Dept. of Labor does not allow it. Not every boy at 16 is ready but I feel he is. Some at 18 still aren't ready and some won't ever be. I understand the need for laws to keep children safe and avoid exploitation. For my son's sake I wished they weren't so restrictive because he demonstrates a healthy respect for the machines in my shop and has above average situational awareness and risk recognition. But the laws exists and my friend and I agree should be observed. That in and of itself teaches my son a lesson. That job will likely be available in a couple years. In the meantime he may help a friend maintain his hunting property.

 

[Rock knocker]

He's allowed to use a broom, hand truck, palm sander and probably a screw gun

 

[MoparTrucks]

I don't know if your around farm country Eric but I hire high school kids on my farm to do fencing, weeding, and general labor and for the right kid I also teach them how to safely operate machinery. Farm labor can be exempt from hourly minimum wages but I pay $10 an hour in a state that has a $7.35 minimum wage and the old adage you get what you pay for is certainly true in my experience.

Most of the kids I hire are farm kids but they often already have some very bad habits and I actually don't see being raised on a farm as that advantageous for general farm labor. I have one kid who has worked for me for a couple of years that drives my trucks, operates one of my tractors and wields a chainsaw like a pro all while wearing hearing protection, chaps, steel toed boots etc. Unfortunately he is going into the Coast Guard in a couple months (actually I'm proud of the kid for doing that).

The only warning is that you really have to check out the farms if your son finds a job at one, Some of the smaller operations have some scary equipment and their practices can sometimes be based on the notion that "we always done it this way" rather than using modern accepted practices.

 

[turfgnome]

Why do you say that? These aren't new laws, they have been in effect for almost thirty years. Was summer lawn mowing affect twentynine, nine or two years ago? Why is it affected now? These laws only apply to those jobs covered by OSHA.

And why wouldn't home owners cover it? You have a source on that Chicken Little?

I did not say it was illegal I said they could not get insurance or sign a binding contract. That has nothing to do with osha. Check into it yourself see if your homeowners insurance covers contractors, I bet you will find like like I did that you are not covered.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In most states you can't even run a meat slicer in a deli until you are 18 !

My Dad ran a small Sears store. He had to turn down all of the high school kids because the law limited them to no more than 50lbs. A case of paint (4 cans) weights more than 50 lbs.

Of course at 16 my kid was "throwing" Toro lawnmower (still in boxes) to the top of a stack that was over 6' and he is only 5'9". Football player. Probably the shortest center they ever had.

 

[NUTTSGT]

So set up a paid "work/study student apprentice" program!

That's what I was wondering. Could or would the school type up a letter stating that classes he would be taking next school year, hopefully a shop class, would correlate with said job.

 

[drmarkr]

Why would you want you're son in a potentially dangerous work environment? I'm sure the owner is a straight up guy, (he did his due diligence) but in many cases young people are put in dangerous work conditions-situations with little or no training or supervision. I recall some of the dumb-*** stuff contractors have had kids do, and in retrospect realize how dangerous (life threatening or life changing injuries) some stuff is. And the kids often are dumb enough to go along with it, cause they don't know better. Go up a 40 foot ladder, - no fall protection but he's 17 and invincible. Operate a table saw with no training, use a jack hammer with no ear protection, demo work no protection, etc, seen it all.


Gary

Do you have a teenage son, or have you raised a son to adulthood? If so, what exactly did you allow him to do, before he turned 18? I've raised 2 (25 and 22), and am raising another (10).

Because turning 18 (or 21) damn sure doesn't bestow the kid with all the experience and knowledge that would prevent the injuries you described.....

Personally, I think it's pathetic that we need the government to "protect" 16-18 y/o's from those "horrible business owners" that might have them running powered shop tools.....what the hell happened to the parents helping judge whether the boy is capable of learning to do this? Kudo's to the OP for his efforts at getting this good kid some good experience.

Just to horrify some of those posting in this thread, I'll share with you that from the time my 10 y/o was about 8, he has used my wood lathe to make a number of items (gasp!!), along with using the belt sander, dremel tool, and.......even.......an 18v drill driver?!?! All with appropriate protective gear, and my supervision, of course.

Feminization of our society.

 

[Lassen Forge]

That's what I was wondering. Could or would the school type up a letter stating that classes he would be taking next school year, hopefully a shop class, would correlate with said job.

They still have shop classes in school? Haven't seen them in years. Even if they did, it would be probably so watered down as to where the "chicken little" teachers (had to borrow that one) won't let them touch anything powered... like my 3rd year metals class. It's why I jumped to Ag Mechanics - thank God I could - and got away from the brand new "Protective Fraidy-cat Hen" teacher we had.

Just to horrify some of those posting in this thread, I'll share with you that from the time my 10 y/o was about 8, he has used my wood lathe to make a number of items (gasp!!), along with using the belt sander, dremel tool, and.......even.......an 18v drill driver?!?! All with appropriate protective gear, and my supervision, of course.

Feminization of our society.

Not Feminization - Wimpification - to describe how our kids are not being taught life skills, kept from putting themselves at any risk whatsoever over the lawsuit suit-happy parents, etc., it's pretty spot on... I was chased into the garage at about 8 or 9 to help dad. Over the next few years I learned valuable skills such as:

-Grinders and wire wheels hurt when your hand hits them if they're still spinning/running. Do does a lathe chuck! (Ouch!)
-Sharp edges of just cut sheet metal and woodworking tools are sharp! (And pressure stops bleeding!)
-Stuff I just welded (or forged) is HOT, and will give you (a) brands or (b) Blisters. It also hurts. For a little while.
-Lefty-loosie Righty Tighty, unless there's a notch in the nut.
-Wait until the brake lathe / drill press / end mill comes to a complete stop. And TAKE THE CHUCK KEY OUT or spend an hour finding where it ran off to!
-Torque wrenches stop studs from pulling and bolts from breaking, and means less use of Helicoils. (And broken bolt extractors are a real #&^@*$!!! )

By the time I started taking shop classes (not to chase guys, but to do fun stuff, sorry dudes!) I had a solid knowledge of what I was doing under me. Knowledge that most parents are so scairdy-fraidy-cat worried about the CPS and authorities to impart to their kids (like a swat on the ****) under penalty of law they don't DARE let their kids near anything more dangerous than a stuffed animal. My second Metals teacher was one of these nursemaids; absolutely no reason for it. None.

My question to the current generation of mamby-pamby parents - of both genders - is this: If your imaginary fears have you so worried your kid may hurt themselves, then how did *you* get to be an age where you could have them without dying from how dangerous things were back then?

 

[kaymccampbell]

Testify sister!

 

[jsaw]

I remember 2nd grade industrial arts class running a drill press.
When I was 16 I got a job in a machine shop. I swept floors, cleaned, & painted. But I also had been running drill presses, lathes, band saws, milling machines grinders, belt sanders and other machines. (Nothing that I had not already done ln high school shop class, or granddads shop) One day an inspector from the state came in asking what type of jobs that I did. I didnt want to get anybody in trouble, or loose my job, I told him that I swept floors and cleaned machines. He pointed to a big band saw. The owner blurted out "He doesnt run that, He only cleans it" The state inspector fined the owner $1,000 for letting me clean that machine. I cant Imagine what would have happened if he knew what I really did.

 

[drmarkr]

They still have shop classes in school? Haven't seen them in years. Even if they did, it would be probably so watered down as to where the "chicken little" teachers (had to borrow that one) won't let them touch anything powered... like my 3rd year metals class. It's why I jumped to Ag Mechanics - thank God I could - and got away from the brand new "Protective Fraidy-cat Hen" teacher we had.



Not Feminization - Wimpification - to describe how our kids are not being taught life skills, kept from putting themselves at any risk whatsoever over the lawsuit suit-happy parents, etc., it's pretty spot on... I was chased into the garage at about 8 or 9 to help dad. Over the next few years I learned valuable skills such as:

-Grinders and wire wheels hurt when your hand hits them if they're still spinning/running. Do does a lathe chuck! (Ouch!)
-Sharp edges of just cut sheet metal and woodworking tools are sharp! (And pressure stops bleeding!)
-Stuff I just welded (or forged) is HOT, and will give you (a) brands or (b) Blisters. It also hurts. For a little while.
-Lefty-loosie Righty Tighty, unless there's a notch in the nut.
-Wait until the brake lathe / drill press / end mill comes to a complete stop. And TAKE THE CHUCK KEY OUT or spend an hour finding where it ran off to!
-Torque wrenches stop studs from pulling and bolts from breaking, and means less use of Helicoils. (And broken bolt extractors are a real #&^@*$!!! )

By the time I started taking shop classes (not to chase guys, but to do fun stuff, sorry dudes!) I had a solid knowledge of what I was doing under me. Knowledge that most parents are so scairdy-fraidy-cat worried about the CPS and authorities to impart to their kids (like a swat on the ****) under penalty of law they don't DARE let their kids near anything more dangerous than a stuffed animal. My second Metals teacher was one of these nursemaids; absolutely no reason for it. None.

My question to the current generation of mamby-pamby parents - of both genders - is this: If your imaginary fears have you so worried your kid may hurt themselves, then how did *you* get to be an age where you could have them without dying from how dangerous things were back then?

This post definitely wins the internet this week....maybe this month!!

Your "valuable skill set" description had me lol! I've done every single one of those (before age 18, for certain), and more....hell I still pull some of them off at age 57!

And re: feminization vs wimpification. Every thing in the world fits on a Bell Curve......you, my lady, are far from the mean! And please know that that is about as big a complement as I can pay......!

 

[PCMusicGuy]

Perhaps he can be classified as an intern or apprentice for legal purposes?

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

I remember 2nd grade industrial arts class running a drill press.
When I was 16 I got a job in a machine shop. I swept floors, cleaned, & painted. But I also had been running drill presses, lathes, band saws, milling machines grinders, belt sanders and other machines. (Nothing that I had not already done ln high school shop class, or granddads shop) One day an inspector from the state came in asking what type of jobs that I did. I didnt want to get anybody in trouble, or loose my job, I told him that I swept floors and cleaned machines. He pointed to a big band saw. The owner blurted out "He doesnt run that, He only cleans it" The state inspector fined the owner $1,000 for letting me clean that machine. I cant Imagine what would have happened if he knew what I really did.

My degree and teaching license was for K-12 industrial arts... We had some training on pre Jr. High, but not enough to make me comfortable doing it...