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Chinese Tools - A Different Take (long)

route246

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I'm barely old enough to remember when Toyota was junk and Cadillac was one of the best mass-produced car brands out there exceeding BMW, Porsche and Benz in the 1960s.

I can tell you right now very confidently that it's about the brand. Toyota and Cadillac are the same companies they were in 1963. They weren't re-made or resurrected. There is a continuous design and production time-line from 1963 to the present. The only real difference between Toyota and Cadillac is that Toyota always tries to make and sell maximum numbers of cars that people will want while Cadillac is, well, it's Cadillac. You'd be hard pressed to find someone under the age of 25 who is going to be interested in buying a Sedan DeVille during their lifetime.

Basic mechanic's tools are not high-tech and they do not require much innovation or technology to manufacture them. Basic hand tools are not patentable and are therefore easily reverse-engineered and cloned. With the exception of certain features such as the quick-release ratchet, there is nothing mysterious about manufacturing very high quality tools. It is a very mature industry and there is really no barrier for any company to enter into the tool business.

That said, there is nothing stopping HF or Sears from going to a competent Chinese manufacturer (including Danaher) and asking for samples of Snap-On quality hand tools. I'm am pretty sure Danaher has the know-how to make tools of this quality and I am also pretty sure that there are Chinese companies out there also capable of doing this.

They don't need to make these claims, either. Serendipitous discovery of the quality will spread the word soon enough. I believe HF is slowly moving towards this brand model already. Sears is at a huge disadvantage because of the gap created currently between US and Chinese manufacturing quality, perceived or real or otherwise.

HF can pull this off. But, changing a brand image takes years and I think they are taking the right approach. Hand tools are very simple implements. They are tangible and they either work or they don't. Mark my words but you will see a silky-smooth 72T-80T HF ratchet being introduced sooner rather than later. You will also see things like very high quality wrenches and screwdrivers. We already see very highly polished wrenches which are very good knock-offs of the real thing now. It's only a matter of time before they tell the manufacturer to step-up the raw material quality, the post-manufacturing quality control and they will let the rest take care of itself. Oh yes, and you will probably see a new "brand" created within the HF brand.

I've studied Starbucks carefully. The cost of the coffee is literally pennies while the price of a cup of some crapacino latte whip can be $5. I make the same expresso at home (10 shots) for exactly $0.26 using french roast from Costco and a stove-top expresso maker from Ikea. I weighed out the ingredients and figured it out that 5 shots costs about $0.13. I'm guessing Starbucks gets it for much cheaper than I can at Costco.

My point is, the cost for HF to step up the raw material quality of a wrench or ratchet is a very minuscule percentage of the cost of the goods. The principal cost is in the distribution and labor.

There are plenty of people who say they will only by US or European tools. That's probably a safe thing to do today at this instance in time. But, it probably will be impractical in the future. It may even be impossible. TVs are no longer made here and neither are Levis Jeans. I don't think there are many shoes still made in the US with the exception of Allen-Edmonds and maybe some New Balance. I think it is just a matter of time before most, if not all tool manufacturing is moved offshore.

Lastly, if you want a glimpse at the offshore (Chinese) wholesale distribution infrastructure, check out alibaba. The link I provided does a generic search for "ratchet" in tools. Have fun traversing this site. It's the largest wholesale distributor site in China. Also, notice that it's all composed in perfect English. You can find almost anything made offshore (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, India, etc.) there.
 
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A_Pmech

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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.
 

91bronc300

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Good post, very informative.

I love the two-faced nature of how we have a Cuban embargo (they're communist after all) and yet not a Chinese embargo. I guess if Cuba could afford to buy trillions in U.S. debt maybe the embargo would go away? (note the sarcasm).

Anyway, politics aside. If I could buy snap on quality stuff from HF for say, double of HF's current prices I would probably have to eat ramen my whole life just to keep the mortgage paid. I've got quite a bit of Mao Zedong out in my toolbox already.

P.S.: PMech, no, we will still have jobs, we just won't be a manufacturing economy anymore, we'll be a 'service' economy. As in, "Yes, Mr. Chang, how may I serve you?"
 
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punkenduro

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sometimes you gave to think outside of your side of the deal. yes, overseas companies can make quality product for cheap, but why is that? the jobs that use to be here (us) where shipped over there cus min. wage her in california is about $8 a hour, they can pay a worker in china something like 50 cents a day. the difference is enough to justify the cost of shipping from china to the us and still make a outrageous profit. i try to keep jobs here where we have our own problem employing people, and make sure those people make a living wage, not just enough for a bowl of rice.
 

Pro-Painter

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Just like you said, Toyota makes cars that are for everyone.. Well tools are just the same. China makes tools that everyone will want. And most Americans just want a enough tools to hang their new wal-mart towel rack.

Most USA company's make tools for the profession. Snap-on is more for the automotive mechanic, Williams is for production, etc. Where Stanley makes tools for DIY homeowners.

Toyota COULD make a car that would be faster then the new corvette ZR1, And I'm sure china could make a tools as good as snap-on..... But they don't.
 

dime

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whether the chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to china, none of us will be able to afford chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

That is the prime reason why i buy american.



this
 

volpster31

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Good post, very informative.

I love the two-faced nature of how we have a Cuban embargo (they're communist after all) and yet not a Chinese embargo. I guess if Cuba could afford to buy trillions in U.S. debt maybe the embargo would go away? (note the sarcasm).

Anyway, politics aside. If I could buy snap on quality stuff from HF for say, double of HF's current prices I would probably have to eat ramen my whole life just to keep the mortgage paid. I've got quite a bit of Mao Zedong out in my toolbox already.

P.S.: PMech, no, we will still have jobs, we just won't be a manufacturing economy anymore, we'll be a 'service' economy. As in, "Yes, Mr. Chang, how may I serve you?"

bronc....i couldnt have said it better myself:thumbup:
 

JohnFreeman

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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.


+10000

Me too.

John

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 

GoBlue

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If you dont think the Chinese can make a Snap on quality tool than get out a ball peen hammer and hit yourself in the head with it because you are a *****. They can put a man in space, build sky scrapers, they have harnessed the atom (thats a nuke for the buckeyes amongst us :bounce:) and have mastered stealth technology. They can and do make Snap on quality tools. They would be stupid however to try and sell them in the United States in an already crowded market (snappy, mac, matco, craftsman etc...). Their advantage lies in the fact that have little to no environmental restrictions, a huge population of people who are dirt poor (cant read, cant write, have never seen a school etc...). This gives them the power of a cheep and stupid workforce. They will work in unsafe conditions, for little pay and they will be happy to do it! Just like Americans around the industrial revolution when we undercut the Euros!!! They can come to market with a cheap product of marginal quality for the most part, have little to no competition and reap the rewards. The **** did it first...and it worked until their quality creeped up and their workforce smartened up and the next thing you knew...they were the same price and quality as American goods. The same will happen to the Chinese eventually. We Americans may even be able to see it...if our country doesn't collapse first.

If you dont think the Chinese can make quality tools than explain Gearwrench, imported MAC tools, and Imported Danner tools. They CHOOSE not to because their goal is TO MAKE MONEY...not make the best tools.
 
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OP
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route246

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One of the major reasons you buy American is because you currently have that opportunity. In the not too distant future you probably will not have that opportunity. As I've explained, it's about branding, not jobs. It's about the money, not jobs. If nobody makes tools in the US anymore you will not be able to buy US-made tools. It's that simple. Where was your TV made? Where was the keyboard on your computer made? You won't have a choice to achieve your desired outcome in the future. I know it ***** but that's the reality of how things work in a global economy.

Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.
 

farmmech86

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Most manufacturers utilize the highly educated U.S. labor force to produce things like chemicals, machine tools, planes, computer components or health care products. (Or missiles - :lol_hitti). Not low-profit things that land on consumer shelves. And U.S. manufacturing is actually really healthy - it outproduces China by 40% and accounts for almost 20% of global manufacturing. Jobs have decreased, but productivity has increased. That is because U.S. manufacturers use better automation technology to decrease labor costs. AND most manufacturing (like 60% or so) in China is owned by foreign capital (again, mostly U.S. firms). So a lot of the money flows back to the U.S. anyways.

If not, it is U.S. marketing firms or retail firms that are making the bulk of profit off of overseas manufacturing. Think about this - who is making the bulk of the profit on a Pittsburgh Socket Set, HF or the Chinese factory? It is HF, a U.S. company, that is making most of the money. And, there were U.S. dockworkers, U.S. truck drivers, and U.S. retail workers all employed in moving that socket set to the customer.

Think about it - if you need low-skilled labor, you go where it is cheap: China, India, Indonesia. If you need highly trained labor, you go where it is readily available: The U.S., Germany. You don't go to the U.S. and pay more for low-skilled labor when it is readily available in China. Asking companies to relocate manufacturing to the U.S. just to create jobs in a location where they are not maximizing profit just doesn't make sense.

And think about it this way: the current tool market is a perfect buyer's market. If you want to spend $10 dollars on a set of wrenches , you can. If you want to spend $100 dollars, you can. If you want to spend $600, you can. You, the buyer, can decide what a set of wrenches is worth - to YOU. And then you can go and purchase a set of wrenches at whatever price point you desire. Imported Asian tools are the great for consumers because they let consumers decide how much they want to spend on tools.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4134965...pite-chinas-might-us-factories-maintain-edge/
 
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route246

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Wow! I didn't know about this! Whew!

But, I'm guessing they will come out with a newly branded line soon that will be polished and a knockoff of of an F80 with no quick-release. This may just be the trial balloon to see if their supplier is up to the task. The "Pittsburgh" brand has a little too much baggage (maybe the "Penn" brand or something):dunno:.

Toyota did it with Lexus, Nissan with Infiniti and Honda with Acura. Mazda was all ready to launch the Millenia (later changed to Amati) brand but the plan was aborted when the company started having financial difficulties.

Already here.
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eighth-inch-heavy-duty-composite-ratchet-66313.html
The sonofabitch is silky smooth I tell ya. Silky SMOOVE!
 

Danglerb

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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.

A good argument could be made that early import protection measures are what killed many US industries. If free trade had started in the 60's instead of the 80's some of the industries might still be alive and competitive.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Sometimes it isn't that simple. I wouldn't own a Toyota if they paid me to. Why? Because even their super-duper Tundra would be reduced to scrap in a matter of minutes the way I use a truck. I wouldn't care if China came up with a silky smooth 200 tooth ratchet either. I'm less concerned with tooth count than I am with "what kind of pain can I expect to be in when this breaks?". I doubt that there's going to be someone from China show up in the parking lot with a replacement for that ratchet when I blow it out either (much less hook me up with really good free stuff like Mac and Snapon have over the years).

Chinese tools and Toyotas are fine for some of the population, but they aren't responsive to the needs of everyone. People need to buy what works for them, and leave the other guy the hell alone. The majority doesn't dictate the needs of the whole. I will never suggest that the typical homeowner/weekend warrior needs Snapon or even Bluepoint tools. It's pointless and wasteful to spend that kind of money on tools that will mostly gather dust. Conversely, it's pointless and stupid to suggest that someone who makes their living with their tools trust their safety and sanity to something that's of dubious quality.
 
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A_Pmech

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The "highly educated US workforce" is a farce and US companies know it.

If you don't believe me, here's what the former CEO of Intel, Craig Barrett, had to say about "highly educated Americans" during a Singapore Sessions interview:


Craig Barrett said:
"This company (Intel) can be very successful with not hiring another American worker because foreign workers (Indians and Chinese) are better trained, better educated than our American workers. If you're going to be a successful international company you go to the best talent, wherever it is."

Which is why Intel is spending the majority of it's R&D money OUTSIDE the United States, as are most American high-tech companies. They get more R&D for their dollar outside the US. Open up your computer sometime and look at where the components are made. Not here!

WSJ article said:
Manufacturers say the U.S. education system doesn't produce enough students strong in math, science and engineering. About 5% of bachelor's degrees awarded in the U.S. are in engineering, compared with an average of about 20% in Asia, according to the U.S. National Science Foundation. In the most recent comparison of math and science test scores of 15-year-old students by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, American students trailed far behind those from China, Japan, South Korea, Canada and Germany.

Quote from this article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703643104576291360540691764.html

All of this should say one thing: America needs a manufacturing policy like China, Germany and Japan or they are going to continue to take our jobs.

Sidebar: General Motors now makes more cars in China than it does in the United States, but that has no direct effect on the American worker because they didn't have any hand in building them!
 
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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.

Amen. I support western manufacturing for the same reason.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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That whole "highly educated" workforce thing is a joke in it's own right. This country is up to our armpits in fourth rate, third world engineers who don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. I recently had to deal with an engineer who was CERTAIN that a 170 ton rotating ball mill only needed 3/8" bolts to keep it from rolling down the hill (the original bolts were 2¼").

We need to return to worrying about quality tradesmen more than we worry about being "educated". One look at the pathetic quality of building construction we do now should illustrate that point pretty well.
 

KTMGuy

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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.

I agree with this also.

And now for your listening pleasure:

 

Appleyard

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I look at 4 things when I'm buying new tools: quality, practicality, price, and customer service/warranty support. Not where its made or whether it's a truck brand or not. Tools help you make money. The less money you have to put in up front to get the job done faster and easier, the further ahead you'll be when payday rolls around. Thats the whole point in buying the tools in the first place.
 

kms

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Already here.
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eighth-inch-heavy-duty-composite-ratchet-66313.html
The sonofabitch is silky smooth I tell ya. Silky SMOOVE!

Thanks! They are on sale and I just read the reviews and bought all three sizes.

But I'm pretty sure these guys are made in Taiwan, not China

image_1764.jpg
 
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Wrenches of Death

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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.

Sadly, I think that we've already passed the tipping point. I honestly can't think of any practical method of saving this country. The debt load is long long past being sustainable. I think that the unfunded liabilities for the the US Govt now exceed over a half a million dollars per household.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washin...2-trillion-in-debt_n.htm?loc=interstitialskip

If that wasn't bad enough, the attitudes of many of the "captains of industry" have turned to the dark side of the force over the last couple of decades. As long as they can line their pockets, everything will continue the way it's going now. Sadly, straight to hell.

As an example, I've been buying new US built GM vehicles for 35 years. A couple of days ago, I read an article where the CEO of GM is wanting the Govt to add a dollar a gallon tax on gasoline. This is to serve as an incentive to make people buy new fuel efficient cars. Hard to believe, huh?

It's attitudes like his that have pushed us along the path to where we are today. I've bought my last GM product.

For you naysayers, here's the link:

http://detnews.com/article/20110607/AUTO01/106070368/1148/rss25

Just because a company is a US based company or builds a product here, it doesn't automatically mean that I will purchase it's products out of any sense of "loyalty". There are a number of companies that have or have had policies or political views that I disagree with. As a result, they'll never see a cent from me again.

There are a lot of US companies that automatically assume that they are entitled to my business. They're dead wrong. They have to EARN my business.

WoD
 

pipsters

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Sadly, I think that we've already passed the tipping point. I honestly can't think of any practical method of saving this country. The debt load is long long past being sustainable. I think that the unfunded liabilities for the the US Govt now exceed over a half a million dollars per household.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washin...2-trillion-in-debt_n.htm?loc=interstitialskip

If that wasn't bad enough, the attitudes of many of the "captains of industry" have turned to the dark side of the force over the last couple of decades. As long as they can line their pockets, everything will continue the way it's going now. Sadly, straight to hell.

As an example, I've been buying new US built GM vehicles for 35 years. A couple of days ago, I read an article where the CEO of GM is wanting the Govt to add a dollar a gallon tax on gasoline. This is to serve as an incentive to make people buy new fuel efficient cars. Hard to believe, huh?

It's attitudes like his that have pushed us along the path to where we are today. I've bought my last GM product.

For you naysayers, here's the link:

http://detnews.com/article/20110607/AUTO01/106070368/1148/rss25

Just because a company is a US based company or builds a product here, it doesn't automatically mean that I will purchase it's products out of any sense of "loyalty". There are a number of companies that have or have had policies or political views that I disagree with. As a result, they'll never see a cent from me again.

There are a lot of US companies that automatically assume that they are entitled to my business. They're dead wrong. They have to EARN my business.

WoD

I saw that too, and thought gee why don't they just get the Government to make it illegal to own any car over 5 years old. That would certainly spur car sales.
 

Wrenches of Death

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There are plenty of people who say they will only by US or European tools. That's probably a safe thing to do today at this instance in time. But, it probably will be impractical in the future. It may even be impossible. TVs are no longer made here and neither are Levis Jeans. I don't think there are many shoes still made in the US with the exception of Allen-Edmonds and maybe some New Balance. I think it is just a matter of time before most, if not all tool manufacturing is moved offshore.

Sadly, you're correct. From the financial standpoint, why would anyone build anything here?

High corporate taxes.

The bureaucracy.

The liability aspects.

The labor force.

etc.

etc.

etc.

Anyone building a factory here needs to have their medication dosage adjusted. Seriously.

WoD
 

William Payne

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I havent read this thread but as a trainy in engineering I have spent a bit of time in machine shops, one of the machinists was telling me about some times he has dealt with the chinese he said they are more then capable of doing things on par with the rest of the world....... if they want to. He said alot of it comes down to what the customer is demanding, one interesting comment he said was that the chinese don't buy what they make, in workshops and machine shops and manufacturing shops in china they buy the best of the best from everywhere else.
 

Notwerk

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Whether the Chinese can produce a quality product or not isn't the point. The point is, if we keep shipping jobs overseas to China, none of us will be able to afford Chinese goods at any price because none of us will have a job.

THAT is the prime reason why I buy American.

Can't really sum it up better than that.
 

omr

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tariffs are usually associated with protectionism, a government's policy of controlling trade between nations to support the interests of its own citizens. For economic reasons, tariffs are usually imposed on imported goods.

in the past, tariffs formed a much larger part of government revenue than they do today.

. .
 

Wrenches of Death

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For something like the first hundred years of the existence of the US, import tariffs, along with taxes on alcohol, were almost the entire source of govt revenue.

Basically, if you didn't want to pay taxes, you bought domestic products and didn't drink. You pretty much got to keep every red cent that you earned.

Then came the War of Northern Aggression and Lincoln's brilliant way to fund the war, "income tax". Gee, thanks Abe. I'll always cherish the memory of you...burning in hell.

Thanks to the globalists in power today, and the ones waiting in the wings to assume power, you'll get your Jetsons flying car before you see the return of tariffs.

WoD
 

VWandDodge

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I'm barely old enough to remember when Toyota was junk and Cadillac was one of the best mass-produced car brands out there exceeding BMW, Porsche and Benz in the 1960s.

Cadillac was quality? You're kidding, right?
 

VWandDodge

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No, it was one the premium car of choice at one time. You're probably too young to know this. As recently as the early 70's was it still considered a premium brand. Read about the brand here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac

I'm 42 and my dad is a retired automotive engineer. GM always produced garbage but had the public conned into thinking otherwise. Remember the old slogan, "What's good for GM is good for America"? How about, "Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet"? Let's not forget how GM heavily campaigned *against* seat belts and even advertised that competitors installed seat belts because *their cars were unsafe*. And comparing Porsche and BMW to Cadillac in the 1960s is not a valid comparison.

True premium brands from that era were Lincoln, Chrysler's Imperial lineup, Bentley, and Rolls Royce.
 

petee_c

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Guys,

Besides my actual person, nothing I own is made in the USA. Manufacturing is pretty much dead. Service industries, trades, Healthcare, Teaching..... that's what kids should study these days.....

I have a friend who's a PhD in Computer science... he's telling his smart nerdy kids not to go into the field..... Engineering can be outsourced pretty good, and India's universities are catching up.

It's hard to outsource your healthcare to India, or have your oil change done in Asia. or your furnace or AC fixed online.


P
 

VWandDodge

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Guys,

Besides my actual person, nothing I own is made in the USA. Manufacturing is pretty much dead.
Service industries, trades, Healthcare, Teaching..... that's what kids should study these days.....

US manufacturing is actually better than it was in the 1980s.

It's hard to outsource your healthcare to India, or have your oil change done in Asia. or your furnace or AC fixed online.

P
Not true. Until the US Recession hit, people were flying to India to have major surgery performed because it was cheaper. Sorry, but once again I rank quality above prices and would not take my chances in hospital in a developing country like India. Heck, many people even head to Mexico for cheaper dentistry. Again, no thanks.
 

Yojinbo

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A_Pmech has the right of it.

I "get" the concept of a global economy, really I do. I suffered through 12 stinking hours of econ in college.

But if Americans want to participate in that global economy as consumers, we have to participate as wage earners FIRST. We are shipping away too many blue AND white collar jobs too fast.

We cannot export only "culture, ideas and raw materials".

THe unions are too busy growing the government to help anyone. Our government long ago reached the collective IQ critical mass of self-preservation.

We need good jobs here and we need to punish those who have prospered by moving jobs offshore.
 
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