Chinese....

[BackTracker]

These are "tools" that a lot of us are using right now to post on this forum.

http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034

 

[polo2k]

real shame there are places like this in the world. As ever with the old internet stories there is probably more info below the surface. I am not condoning what we see in this article, merly pointing out that there may be more to the story.
They talk about them only earning $1000 a year but the cost of living is undoubtedly lower.

I want to re-iterate that I do not agree with the reported conditions

Another thing that I found a bit annoying was that the article constantly pins the blame on MS. Its not their factory, its not their employees simply their contractor. MS design the product and then outsource production to get the best price. If anyone is to blame for a "cost defined product" it is us the end user, if we want cheaper items then they have to cut production costs, they cant do this by not paying the electric, or suppliers, the only thing they can cost cut is the ongoing production costs. someone has to pay all those programmers, lawyers and pay for those pretty "im a PC" ads.

I think that the subject of this article is something that we should all consider, the point behind this mini essay is that MS arn't screwing these guys its their contractor.

ps for the record I think MS **** as much as the next guy. I just like to see a fair trial.

 

[TireTracks]

Thats horrible.

i

 

[TireTracks]

I just found this

http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0007

In court, the Toyota company argued that Mr. Uchino had worked only 45 hours of overtime in the month leading up to his death and that the other 61 ½ hours were “voluntary” in nature and “performed off the clock.” The court rejected Toyota’s argument and ruled that the number of overtime hours actually worked by Mr. Uchino was 106 ½. Even this was a very conservative estimate, as it did not include work taken home on the weekends or the informal work-related meetings with colleagues away from the plant that management encouraged. The court ruled that Mr. Uchino had worked 61 ½ hours of unpaid overtime in the 30-day period before he collapsed and died.

Mrs. Uchino put her husband’s true overtime hours at 155, of which an astounding 110 hours were unpaid. Mrs. Uchino points out that her husband often worked three or four hours on his days off—as he did on the Saturday before he died, January 26, preparing reports due the following week. There were also frequent meetings with colleagues outside the factory, often over food and drink. Toyota claims that such meetings—where work is discussed—are freely participated in by the workers, none of whom are under any compulsion. But in reality, young workers hoping to advance through promotions feel they are under pressure and are expected to attend such informal work meetings.

“Karoshi”
The Japanese workers even have a name for it—“Karoshi,” meaning overworked to death.

The same year Kenichi Uchino died from overwork, so did another Toyota employee, this time a white collar technician. Management had put him in charge of designing an assembly line to mass produce a new model Toyota car. It was an enormous responsibility, and he was under constant pressure from his immediate superior to meet the production deadline so that his boss could get a promotion. He was leaving home each day at 7:30 or 8:00 a.m. and not returning until 11:00 p.m., 12-midnight, or 1:00 a.m. Including his commute, he was working 15 to 17 ½ hours a day. The workload and pressure was too much, and in November 2006, the 46-year-old man died of a hemorrhage.



[Source: Ken Shimizu/AFP-Getty Images]




Toyota management may very well have gotten away claiming no responsibility for the man’s death, except someone at the plant leaked to the man’s family that Toyota monitors its parking lot, noting the time each employee parks in the morning and leaves at night. With this information, the Labor Ministry determined that the technician’s cause of death was overwork, and his family was due compensation and a pension.

Another Toyota employee—just 32 years of age—committed suicide on January 17, 2005. He had been put in charge of setting up and unifying a new computer security system for Toyota, both in Japan and internationally. Along with his own workload, he was responsible to also oversee numerous computer security subcontractors around the world who were hired to work on this massive project. The work load was not only enormous, but setting hard and fast deadlines was central to “The Toyota Way,” which added even more pressure to finish on time. The first deadline was a January 15 meeting with high-level Toyota management to review the status of the new computer security system. A second meeting was to follow on January 17, 2005, which was the day the young man committed suicide.

Despite the fact that the company union at Toyota refused to help the dead man’s family, who begged the union to press management for his pension in March 2006, the Labor Inspection Standard Office confirmed that the computer technician’s death was caused by overwork. As such, the family will receive a pension and compensation for his death.

[picture]

Even high level management at Toyota is not protected from the pressure of overwork. The chief engineer of a new hybrid model Camry died of a heart attack on January 2, 2006, just days before the Camry he designed won the “Car of the Year Award” in Detroit. Toyota sent a small gold replica model of the Camry to his wife. He was just 45 year old when he died from overwork. He faced enormous stress right up the deadline. At the last moment, there was trouble with the engine catching fire, and also cost overruns, which left him working around the clock for months leading up to the new hybrid Camry’s release. Constant stress led to his heart attack, making him another “Karoshi” victim.

A prominent Japanese attorney who is very familiar with such “Karoshi” cases believes that the number of Toyota auto workers who fall ill, suffer serious depression and actually die from overwork are understated by at least 200 to 300 workers each year.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Could I interest you in some Chineese sneaker spam attacks ?

 

[benjamming]

polo2k,

MS does indeed share some of the blame as does the contractor, etc. MS (& the other companies listed) share responsiblity for downstream personnel treatment. We can't just turn our head & pretend our hands are clean.

 

[Zrexxer]

Yeah, well... if you start reading that article and thinking critically about their "facts," some things don't add up. For instance, "In one workshop measuring around 105 by 105 feet, there were nearly 1,000 workers." Hmm.... that means there's a worker in every 10 sq ft. So there's a human occupying approximately every 3 foot square of floor space... Really? Where are the products, the materials, the machinery?

I don't disagree that employee conditions in China are often deplorable, but when these "the-sky-is-falling" articles don't stand up to even casual scrutiny, I tend to be skeptical of anything else they report.

 

[Art From De Leon]

If you absolve MS of any responsibilty, does this also mean that ALL the other American companies who have chosen to let the Chinese build their junk are also off the hook?

The main thing the story tells me is that the Chinese government has absolutely NO interest in improving the working standards, or treatment given its citizens. But we already knew that an individual in China is of no concern to their government. This has always been the Chinese viewpoint, given that human bodies are great in number and therefore cheap to replace.

The Chinese government could regulate the working conditions, but they choose not to.

In one of the few things that I support the results of union representation, AND government regulation, is what they have done to improve the working conditions of the American worker.

Upton Sinclair's description of life in "The Jungle" was fairly accurate, and we all know about child labor, 6 day workweeks, no paid overtime, and other conditions of working class life, that once was the accepted norm.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

I wonder how long until we start seeing ad's like the one that was in the movie, Crazy People.

 

[benjamming]

Yeah, well... if you start reading that article and thinking critically about their "facts," some things don't add up. For instance, "In one workshop measuring around 105 by 105 feet, there were nearly 1,000 workers." Hmm.... that means there's a worker in every 10 sq ft. So there's a human occupying approximately every 3 foot square of floor space... Really? Where are the products, the materials, the machinery?

I don't disagree that employee conditions in China are often deplorable, but when these "the-sky-is-falling" articles don't stand up to even casual scrutiny, I tend to be skeptical of anything else they report.

Thanks for reading through it. I questioned the over-the-top "reporting" but figured as much so didn't read through it.

 

[Mike 47]

I just found this

http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0007

The Mr. Uchino thing is ridiculous, but the rest of it - as if Toyota is the only company in the world that overworks their employees?

 

[jake26]

I never thought I would hear a political arguement in "The Garage".

Although I suspect the article highlights the most horrible aspects, the facts show us that China is not playing with the same rules the Western World is. They have a terrible Civil Rights history (ie: Tinimen Square) and they have been keeping their currency artificially low. The Ren has rose only 5% in the last 5 years while seeing a 50% rise in exports.

Sooner or later, China will have to change their monetary policy to fight inflation and combat America's printing presses. And once their citizen's taste a better life, they will want more and bring their prices in line with the rest of the world. The question is, "Can we wait that long?"

 

[Nosferatu]

Yes, the working conditions in China ****, we know. However, I don't take articles like this seriously when they are clearly written with an agenda to fit this organizations cause.

 

[swharris]

In one of the few things that I support the results of union representation, AND government regulation, is what they have done to improve the working conditions of the American worker.

Upton Sinclair's description of life in "The Jungle" was fairly accurate, and we all know about child labor, 6 day workweeks, no paid overtime, and other conditions of working class life, that once was the accepted norm.

Unforytunately most stupid Americans forget all the gains that unions fought for here in this country. The modern American loves to forget that they would still to this day be living and working in "the Jungle" along with their children if it were not for the gains union workers fought to get.

This idea that union = bad has taken hold since that ******* Reagan was in office. Corporate propaganda has fueled the fire(along with horrible union management/PR) of the anti-unionist mentality.

Most young people have no clue they would be far worse off if not for the unions that allowed their parents to earn a decent wage that put them through college. Remember when ONE person could support a family??? That was when unions were strong and tariffs protected quality US MADE products(like Germany, Mexico and CHINESE have BTW).

We need to stop this false CONSUMER economy and get back to making products here and not over there. Why do we give corporations a free pass to ship manufacturing out. Manufacturing is not a dirty word people. An economy can only grow by PRODUCING something.

 

[ZRX61]

Most young people have no clue they would be far worse off if not for the unions that allowed their parents to earn a decent wage that put them through college. Remember when ONE person could support a family??? That was when unions were strong and tariffs protected quality US MADE products(like Germany, Mexico and CHINESE have BTW).

The same unions that caused manufacturers to look overseas for new factories & move production out of the US...

We need to stop this false CONSUMER economy and get back to making products here and not over there. Why do we give corporations a free pass to ship manufacturing out. Manufacturing is not a dirty word people. An economy can only grow by PRODUCING something.

The unions, environazis & govt have made it all but impossible to build new factories etc in the US. Just look at what happened in California... & now we have a POTUS who seems hellbent on turning the entire US into a giant version of Flint Michigan....

 

[BackTracker]

The unions, environazis & govt have made it all but impossible to build new factories etc in the US. Just look at what happened in California... & now we have a POTUS who seems hellbent on turning the entire US into a giant version of Flint Michigan....

I'm no fan of unions in their current bloated form. However, other countries do need their unions to step up and level the playing field. I'm not so sure our unions are the ones to blame given that if china had similar labor costs there would be no need to farm out production. That said, instead of condemning our unions why don't we try to get the Chinese strong unions. equal pay, and equal hours to the world standard?


Food for thought.

 

[babzog]

So THAT's why my XBOX kept breaking down! Little bastards aren't keeping up with quality requirements!













I'm kidding of course. These types of conditions are horrible! Today, I was reading about kids in Senegal, how the "schools" they are sent to are really just fronts for powerful men to send these little guys - some as young as FOUR - out into the street to beg for money. If they don't bring "enough" back, they get whipped. F*&king abusive pricks - you don't want to know what kind of thoughts go through my head when I read that shite! Then I look at my little ones and think how their biggest problems are not getting enough candy or making "accidents" in the house from time to time.

 

[bgott]

Good! If we did that with our little bastards they wouldn't have time to be out stealing stuff and painting graffiti over everything that doesn't move. I was out working in the hayfields or on the end of a muck stick in a barn or a chicken coop from 12 or 13 on up. It won't kill them.

 

[TireTracks]

Good! If we did that with our little bastards they wouldn't have time to be out stealing stuff and painting graffiti over everything that doesn't move. I was out working in the hayfields or on the end of a muck stick in a barn or a chicken coop from 12 or 13 on up. It won't kill them.

So, we should force kids to work 18 hour days? for almost no money?

Wow! what a great idea.

let's all go be slaves!

 

[sheslostcontrol]

Yeah, well... if you start reading that article and thinking critically about their "facts," some things don't add up. For instance, "In one workshop measuring around 105 by 105 feet, there were nearly 1,000 workers." Hmm.... that means there's a worker in every 10 sq ft. So there's a human occupying approximately every 3 foot square of floor space... Really? Where are the products, the materials, the machinery?

I don't disagree that employee conditions in China are often deplorable, but when these "the-sky-is-falling" articles don't stand up to even casual scrutiny, I tend to be skeptical of anything else they report.

including this.

if there are three shifts that means a worker every 30sqft which is more likely.

just bought a new leather work belt made in america.. liked the quality so much I ordered two more fashion belts from the same company. i can't avoid buying some chinese things but I go out of my way to avoid it now if i can.

 

[Kent Skinner]

just bought a new leather work belt made in america.. liked the quality so much I ordered two more fashion belts from the same company. i can't avoid buying some chinese things but I go out of my way to avoid it now if i can.

What company? I need a new belt.

 

[nolatoolguy]

Thats just a shame. I am an american, I believe in buying american made products. I sometimes have to buy foregn made products but I try not to.

 

[brain_power]

That's the sacrifice of the Chinese individuals, and also their contribution to the world.

I bet that's the same of the earlier American history. However, there should be a power to push forward on the progress. I bet the government and the US companies are well-known of this.

 

[swharris]

The same unions that caused manufacturers to look overseas for new factories & move production out of the US...




The unions, environazis & govt have made it all but impossible to build new factories etc in the US. Just look at what happened in California... & now we have a POTUS who seems hellbent on turning the entire US into a giant version of Flint Michigan....

Wait, wait...you forgot the Liberal Media elite, prayer in schools, evolution, abortion and every other non issue red herring currently used to distract people from what they should be watching....THE MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATION!

Sorry to crush your *********** ideology, but GREED is what caused production to move overseas....CORPORATE GREED. Stop drinking the Milton Freedman cool-aid and the BS of "free market" nonsense. That might actually work if humans were not greedy. MANAGED capitalism is the only way it can work for the good of the WHOLE society(yes you are included in that)...not just the elite(rich) How old are you anyway?

If you want to be angry and bitter at something, direct it at the real cooks who actually control your destiny currently. That'd be wall street and the big 6 banks!

I won't ask you to read, but at least watch Bill Moyers and learn the real truth. Yes it's time to get angry and loud, but tilting at windmills is not productive. Aim for the banks. I'll be right beside you.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04162010/profile.html

 

[swharris]

So, we should force kids to work 18 hour days? for almost no money?

Wow! what a great idea.

let's all go be slaves!

Um, yes, corporate America would love a return to the 19th century.

 

[rcayot]

Hooo boy, looking for Moyers to 'speak truth to power' is something else.

Of course I deplore poor working conditons. If you want to place a 'greed' moniker on anyone for this, place it on the consumer who would rather buy cheap goods than support local economy. How many support the local Mom and Pop stores? How many go to Wal-Mart? How many support local privately owned businesses rather than big national chains?

One thing can be said, at least we have an example of a culture of hard work ethic. While in this country hard work is eschewed. There are plenty of people who are willing to work hard, and guess what? Most of those are actually doing okay without unions, and the government. Maybe not so much right now as the economy *****, but for the most part they were. You know who I mean, maybe came here illegally to work.... and work they do....

Roger

 

[Shocker]

Time to close the thread when the communists come out of the woodwork.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Those working conditions are so horrible, look at the second picture. To me, I may be wrong, it sure looks like she is using a cell phone.

 

[Bruce4310TX]

The same unions that caused manufacturers to look overseas for new factories & move production out of the US...




The unions, environazis & govt have made it all but impossible to build new factories etc in the US. Just look at what happened in California... & now we have a POTUS who seems hellbent on turning the entire US into a giant version of Flint Michigan....

Wow,,, if its the Unions fault how come consumer prices have not come down after they closed that U.S.A. factory because its all about squeezing profits and now Corporations dont care if they turn a profit just raise the company stock price so it triggers a stock bonus payout. so please get the facts straight its not about Unions every person with a job union or non union are affected by Corporate Greed and if it wasnt for the Sacrifices the Union workers made we would still be like china.

 

[1984GMC]

Wait, wait...you forgot the Liberal Media elite, prayer in schools, evolution, abortion and every other non issue red herring currently used to distract people from what they should be watching....THE MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATION!

Sorry to crush your *********** ideology, but GREED is what caused production to move overseas....CORPORATE GREED. Stop drinking the Milton Freedman cool-aid and the BS of "free market" nonsense. That might actually work if humans were not greedy. MANAGED capitalism is the only way it can work for the good of the WHOLE society(yes you are included in that)...not just the elite(rich) How old are you anyway?

If you want to be angry and bitter at something, direct it at the real cooks who actually control your destiny currently. That'd be wall street and the big 6 banks!

I won't ask you to read, but at least watch Bill Moyers and learn the real truth. Yes it's time to get angry and loud, but tilting at windmills is not productive. Aim for the banks. I'll be right beside you.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04162010/profile.html

LMFAO dude you need to stop drinking the koolaid and step out in the real world.

 

[benjamming]

[snip]every person with a job union or non union are affected by Corporate Greed and if it wasnt for the Sacrifices the Union workers made we would still be like china.

Who makes up "corporate"? Yep, everyone who owns stock, mutual funds, got a 401(k); all in that big 'ol boat.