Choosing an online HVAC dealer

[Steve in UT]

Positives, negatives, success stories, horror stories, advantages, disadvantages, recommendations? I'll be purchasing a Furnace with coils and condenser.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

I used Ingrams water and air for two different minisplit installations. They were great. The also do conventional HVAC. Also did a Reverse Osmosis system. They handled tech support and warranty things very well.

 

[Jim greengo]

I used Ingraham water and air once around 8 years ago for a commercial package unit.
I wouldnt reccomend them to anyone myself.

 

[Lonnies Performance]

I used AC Wholesalers for 4 Mini Splits.

Good service/prices & I when I had a bad part (not their fault, a factory defect) on one of them, they quickly sent a replacement part to get it corrected.

 

[okoyoray]

I usually read multiple online reviews to get a balanced look at potential HVAC dealer. If the site provides ratings and reviews, even better

 

[inphx]

AC Wholesalers on a few purchases. On a new build i needed to cooridinate shipment time and was easy to interact with real person about order.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I can't recommend any particular on line dealer for a furnace, but I will add that Fujitsu will not honor the warranty on any mini split purchased on line.

Tommy

 

[nadogail]

Choose someone who you can get service from, Just in the Hopefully unlikely event you need help.

 

[danski0224]

The online places seem to sell at or near "list" price. The buyer thinks they are getting a deal.

Most manufacturers have verbiage in the warranty that voids warranties from online sales. How this is enforced, I do not know.

I worked with one person that insisted on buying their equipment online. I had no problems installing it, the person thinks that he "got a deal", I didn't have to pick it up (I refused to do that anyways) and I don't have to warranty it.

The handling of the warranty in the above case is sketchy in my eyes, as the vendor required installation by a "competent person". If warranty service is required in the future, I do not think it will go too smoothly for the customer.

 

[bonneyman]

No way.

Look at how many on-line purchases go sideways. Though maybe an A/C unit from a Nigerian prince would work.

 

[dcg9381]

I used heatandcool.com - bought two ductless Daikin systems. Came in on time, no problems. Had no install issues, so no real experience with service.
If these are sold "at retail" (I doubt it) - the local mark up was substantially more.
NO WARRANTY, if you read the fine print.

I hit one condenser units with a bobcat, well, nicked it, just enough to scrape up the fiberglass cover on the coolant valves. No parts diagram. Emailed for parts - they said they'd look into it and never got back to me - seems to be an internal communication issue. Haven't wanted that part bad enough to call in.

 

[SALIV8]

I used comfortup.com and had no problems.

 

[Notgrownup]

I’ve used www.alpinehomeair.com twice. Never a problem with the blueridge products yet.

 

[ALinCarolina]

I ordered a 32K LG minisplit from ecomfort. It came in separate shipments over about 3 weeks IIRC. I have a long term relationship from my HVAC guys and they installed it. The price for the unit was about half of the best deal my guys could get from their wholesalers.

 

[imjustdave]

The online places seem to sell at or near "list" price. The buyer thinks they are getting a deal.

Most manufacturers have verbiage in the warranty that voids warranties from online sales. How this is enforced, I do not know.

I worked with one person that insisted on buying their equipment online. I had no problems installing it, the person thinks that he "got a deal", I didn't have to pick it up (I refused to do that anyways) and I don't have to warranty it.

The handling of the warranty in the above case is sketchy in my eyes, as the vendor required installation by a "competent person". If warranty service is required in the future, I do not think it will go too smoothly for the customer.

On the flip side how much did the customer save? AKA if you provided the material? How much do warranties cover anyways? most of the time labor isn't covered. Friend at work had a system installed by a company paid for the yearly club thing and come broken part time they wanted to charge labor that was supposedly covered by the club membership... So yeah the part was covered but it was 250 and labor was another 750. Self warantee at the point could be cheaper. Please dont feel like im attacking you, not trying to, just pointing out a trend I see in my area of high pricing sales, warranty tactics ETC.

 

[PWC Repair]

I will also add that I worked the parts counter at an HVAC supply house for 18 years. No way would I warranty anything that wasn't installed by a pro.

 

[metlmunchr]

No way would I warranty anything that wasn't installed by a pro.

But that begs the question Who is a Pro?.

I've had a hvac contracting license for 30 years, but I got out of that business several years ago. I maintain the license for access to equipment and parts for my own stuff and for a few friends and family members.

So, legally that makes me a pro. It also allows me to hire a bunch of mouth breathing idiots and turn them loose as installers with no supervision whatsoever.

I have no doubt there's plenty of non-pro types on this board who are capable of doing a far better installation of a residential system than a large percentage of the people out there today doing it for a living.

One of the biggest problems is contractors who (illegally) sub all their work to so called independent contractors who do all the installation on a flat rate basis. This is specifically forbidden by law, as it prohibits the loaning or use of a license to non employees for the purpose of contracting by unlicensed personnel. I'd imagine other states have the same sort of provisions in their licensing laws.

I've seen multiple examples of this sort of work, and to describe it as dogshit would be an undeserved compliment. Not surprising since flat rate work of this type encourages corner cutting to the max.

I was in the Carrier distributor's local parts place one day picking up some stuff and a couple guys with a magnetic sign on a truck naming a contractor who was known to sub everything, came in carrying a box that was obviously a compressor. One says to the counter guy "Put it in the regular place?" and heads on thru the door to the warehouse area.

The counter guy, manager of the branch, just shook his head as they went to the back. I asked if they had a lot of warranty returns. He said Yeah, at least one compressor every couple weeks. He said he'd recommended to the company that they quit selling to this contractor, but was overruled as they'd rather have the business than have it go to another brand. Of course, the cost of this incompetence is spread across all the contractors who do decent work, and ultimately to their customers.

Compressor failures aren't just a fact of life. Over 16 years working in my dad's business as a commission estimator and project manager, I did a bit over $25 million of work. No residential, but anything from small commercial using residential equipment to large jobs with up to 400 ton centrifugal chillers and boilers the approaching the size of a school bus.

During that time, I had exactly one in warranty compressor failure, and that was on a 7.5 ton condensing unit with 100 feet of underground refrigerant lines. It was a plan and spec job, and I told the engineer during construction that there was a high likelihood of slugging the compressor when the unit was started the following spring after sitting all winter. And it did.

Had one job that used three 5 ton 3 phase condensing units. At start up, one leg of one compressor was pulling about 25% higher amperage than the other 2 legs. I immediately pumped it down and cut it loose. Returned it to the distributor for another unit as it was much easier and cheaper to do that than to let it go for 6 months and then deal with a burnout.

There's definitely equipment that comes to market from time to time with inherent problems, but that's the exception rather than the rule. The largest amount of failures, by far, are due to half-assed installation work. As my dad said more than once, "There's a lot of people in this business who are much better suited to looking a plow mule in the ***".

 

[danski0224]

One of the biggest problems is contractors who (illegally) sub all their work to so called independent contractors who do all the installation on a flat rate basis. This is specifically forbidden by law, as it prohibits the loaning or use of a license to non employees for the purpose of contracting by unlicensed personnel. I'd imagine other states have the same sort of provisions in their licensing laws.

I've seen multiple examples of this sort of work, and to describe it as dogshit would be an undeserved compliment. Not surprising since flat rate work of this type encourages corner cutting to the max.

This is a big thing in my area.

Plenty of so-called employers that are really just hiring so-called 1099 subcontractors, who are truly employees under DoL regulations.

 

[PWC Repair]

@metlmunchr.......amen bro!

I personally delivered a new heat pump system to a "Pro". Guy has been in business for years. I helped him shove the old unit up into the back of his truck. It puked black goo out on the tailgate and onto my shoe. Burnt bad! Now, I did not deliver a new lineset OR any flush. I asked if he had flush to clear that lineset and his remark was he'd blow it out good with nitrogen. When I got back to the office I marked a note on his paperwork about that before I filed it......just in case I decided not to warranty a compressor later, lol!

 

[danski0224]

On the flip side how much did the customer save? AKA if you provided the material? How much do warranties cover anyways? most of the time labor isn't covered. Friend at work had a system installed by a company paid for the yearly club thing and come broken part time they wanted to charge labor that was supposedly covered by the club membership... So yeah the part was covered but it was 250 and labor was another 750. Self warantee at the point could be cheaper. Please dont feel like im attacking you, not trying to, just pointing out a trend I see in my area of high pricing sales, warranty tactics ETC.

There was a few hundred dollar difference between my wholesale cost and the online cost.

But, who sells stuff for cost? I also lost my parts markup.

Then there was the discussion about labor costs, and how labor to install a HVAC system should be much less, hinting that it is just "labor" not "skilled trades". Sort of like this particular part of the forum.

I told this particular guy if he went out to buy all of the tools and equipment needed to install his stuff, THEN I might consider a lower rate to simply use his stuff. He got the point.

The residential HVAC maintenance agreements are primarily designed to even out cash flow for the business. These agreements also provide a metric by which to establish a value for the business when it is time to sell it. While not every shop is bad, I have run across plenty of equipment supposedly covered by a maintenance agreement that has had no obvious maintenance.

Getting warranty coverage can become interesting.

Most supply houses do not cover labor for their customers (the people buying and installing the equipment) on a warranty service call to replace a defective part. The ones that do, only pay out a fraction of a business sustaining hourly labor rate, and it takes forever and a day to get paid. Materials, like refrigerant and driers to replace a evaporator coil with a bad TXV? Good luck.

So, the company usually has to eat this cost, certainly during the 1 year labor warranty that the manufacturer allegedly offers.

The largest residential HVAC hack outfit in the Chicago metropolitan area (their name has seasons in it) will void the equipment warranty if the customer does not have biannual service done (heating and AC replacements). I'm sure that they offer some sort of "maintenance agreement".

Some years ago, the same outfit had a competition for condemning the most furnace heat exchangers, and the prize was a Mustang Cobra, plus the taxes to pay for the winnings. Just imagine how many people got screwed over with their "bad" furnace or boiler. They may have the same contest now, or something similar.

At a union residential HVAC outfit, bad heat exchangers came up, and I asked if they use a combustion analyzer to test, verify or confirm. Or even use one on a "clean and check". Nope. They didn't even have one.

Residential HVAC places push box (equipment) sales, not repairs. Direct employees at non-union shops are on a "performance based pay scale" that can push questionable ethical behavior. The "1099 subcontractors" like those that work for Sears are paid on a flat rate piecework scale... and those "lead installers" need to play the 1099 game to hire their own "helper".

The goal is to get the "warranty" (or no warranty) parts and labor costs so high that a new system can be considered. To sell more boxes.

The companies that advertise that they are some sort of "Premiere Dealer" has nothing to do with quality of installation and everything to do with the number of boxes sold.

I do not agree with questionable warranty parts/labor pricing, but that is the business model for many outfits.

That said, there are costs to get the person to the door, in a stocked van, then to do the diagnostics, then to replace the part. If the company is going to make money (turn a profit), then the labor rate needs to be high enough to do so.

Along these lines, base pay rate for a Local 701 Service Technician (union mechanic) as of 08/01/2020 will be $36.30 on the check and a non-signatory (non-union) Dodge dealership in Downers Grove is charging over $130 an hour for the shop rate (their rate is actually pushing $150/hr). Non-union residential HVAC shops will have a similar labor rate and even lower pay in my area.

Appliance repair folks charge $130 or more to ring the doorbell. It is possible that the $750 labor charge was reasonable- what it was for is not disclosed.

It is similar to the auto repair places charging a "book rate" at nearly $150 an hour in my area for a repair that clocks in for 5 hours yet can be done in one- I get billed for 5, pay retail (or more) for all the parts, plus all of the adder fees like "shop supplies" or "disposal". Where are the numerous threads about those shenanigans and this forum is always full of people bitching about HVAC service/installation prices?

 

[Jackfre]

In working on a product development panel with a manuf my input was that with as few people as there are in the trades that their goal had to be to design and build equipment that could basically not be screwed up on installation and be able to repair itself when broken. Also, many of the extended warranties offered in the industry are third party products. Long warranties sell equipment but a long warranty must be carried on the manufacturers books for the duration of the warranty. Hence the aftermarket folks do really well for a while. In the HVAC trade, Triad and EWC were very successful at selling their warranties. Once they had sold enough of them and the claims came in they did what business does and closed up having done very well for themselves. I knew those people. Contractors ate them up as well offering/selling long labor warranties. Warranty Co goes belly up and where are those contractors and more importantly those consumers?
I was always happy Repping Fujitsu in that they won't cover an on-line sales warranty. I liked the channel of Manuf, Distributor, Contractor, Consumer. You knew where you were. Today, all manuf have lost control of their channel.

 

[danski0224]

In working on a product development panel with a manuf my input was that with as few people as there are in the trades that their goal had to be to design and build equipment that could basically not be screwed up on installation and be able to repair itself when broken.

Not sure about the "self repair" part, but the communicating equipment has sophisticated self-set-up and self-diagnostics built in.

Of course, the proprietary control (thermostat) must be used to enable these features. Probably only a matter of time until there is some sort of built-in interface module to communicate between equipment, yet allow control from any thermostat.