Cigarette Smoke Ventilation

[Plump]

I don't weld or run any engines in the garage so I'm not concerned with full-on fresh air ventilation. What I need to figure out is how, especially in the winter months when everything is locked down, how to get cigarette smoke out of the garage.

We have friends over quite often, some that smoke, and it gets oppressively smokey after a while. The garage is heated and insulated but is far from air tight. I was looking at a Broan ventilation fan at Menards that moves 180 cfm at 6.5 sones (about $70). I'm not hugely concerned about the noise since the drunks usually take care of that but obviously, I don't want it to drown out music and conversation. I was thinking of putting it up directly above the "bar" area where we sit.

Any ideas, advice, or pitfalls you all have run into? Wiring it up isn't a problem as I've got a dedicated line for it all ready to go. Piping it to the outside won't be an issue either as I've got plenty of room in the attic to get it outside. Intake air an issue? As stated, the garage leaks like a sieve already and I don't want to lose too much heat in the winter.

Thanks lads and lasses!

 

[Falcon67]

If it was my shop, they'd smoke out side. All the bars here are smoke free, so they'll get over it. Unless you also smoke, that's how I'd handle it. If you're pulling air out, replacement has to come from somewhere. So if you vent out at 200CFM, you're going to have to pick it up somewhere. If the walls leak, the cold is coming in. 6.5 sones is pretty damn loud too. 3-4 sones would be more like it.

 

[aka Larry]

If it was my shop, they'd smoke out side.

Yeah, what he said.

 

[phbsales]

Use an ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator). It uses the warm (or cold) exhaust air to condition the incoming air. There's your air exchanges without losing too many btu's.......

 

[.mike.]

Smoke outside, and if I find butts on the ground, they aren't smoking there ever again.

 

[Stuart in MN]

To really get rid of the smell you need a smoke eater, not just an exhaust fan - they use various kinds of filters rather than just blowing the air out. I found this site with more information: http://www.smokeeaters.org/ Unfortunately they're not cheap.

 

[RalloZ35]

Smoke outside, and if I find butts on the ground, they aren't smoking there ever again.

I agree with him.

 

[JimVonBaden]

You guys who tell him to have them smoke outside aren't really helping him. He chooses to let his friends smoke inside and is looking for some help to minimize the smoke in the air.

Jim

PS I don't smoke.

 

[balane]

You guys who tell him to have them smoke outside aren't really helping him. He chooses to let his friends smoke inside and is looking for some help to minimize the smoke in the air.

Jim

PS I don't smoke.

That's because deep down some people don't really want to help, they just want others to conform to their ideas, relevant or not.

 

[nehog]

Would you like me, a person who had a heart attack in April, to go into the reasons to not allow any smoking in the shop/garage? The 'tell them no smoking inside' is the correct answer, despite what the other posters are saying. I've never allowed smoking in my buildings, and it is a rare day that anyone comes around that even considers lighting up inside.

 

[Plump]

Um, yeah. Obviously I let them smoke in the garage so....


The Smokeater option is totally out. I don't have a big budget for this so I was just thinking of the exhaust fan deal. Just want some feedback on anything people may have used in the past that worked and if they did something great that worked.

 

[JimVonBaden]

Would you like me, a person who had a heart attack in April, to go into the reasons to not allow any smoking in the shop/garage? The 'tell them no smoking inside' is the correct answer, despite what the other posters are saying. I've never allowed smoking in my buildings, and it is a rare day that anyone comes around that even considers lighting up inside.

Obviously you will not be hanging out in his garage.

As for me, I can handle some, but like the OP, I would like to see a solution for this. It could be useful for a variety of things in winter, or summer, when trying some climate control. So, please keep the constructive advice coming.

Jim

 

[balane]

Would you like me, a person who had a heart attack in April, to go into the reasons to not allow any smoking in the shop/garage? The 'tell them no smoking inside' is the correct answer, despite what the other posters are saying. I've never allowed smoking in my buildings, and it is a rare day that anyone comes around that even considers lighting up inside.

I abhor smoking myself and have the same policy on it as you guys, along with 10 billion other people on the planet. Hating smoking doesn't make me special. My father barely survived a 99% carotid artery blockage and stroke because of it. But that's about as relevant to the man's question as what my favorite flavor milkshake is and I realize that because EVERYBODY ON THE PLANET WITH HALF A BRAIN KNOWS THAT SMOKING IS BAD ALREADY!!!! If you guys want to have a no-smoking-on-my-property discussion be my guest, do it here for all I care, but just realize you're here only to push your opinion and not help the OP with his request in any way.

 

[sirsloop]

tell em to step outside... put a bucket out back too so they don't throw butts all over the damn place.

Just the fact that you are considering a ventilation system specifically for them irks me...LOL!

 

[Jagmandave]

Getting back to the OP's question, those smokeeater things don't really work either.....

Are you just trying to ease the haze a bit or do you really want to clear the air?

I think no matter what you do you're going to have the effects of the smoke linger, the yellow stains on the walls and ceilings and the smell on everything in the garage.

One tack you could take is that it's not safe to smoke in a garage where there are flamable liquids and such.......cause it really isn't.

But if you want them to come over and smoke in your garage (probably they do it because yours is one of the last places on earth where they can without judgement) you can have heat or you can have clear air - either way it's probably going to be expensive.

Those little bathroom ventilation fans aren't really gonna do it, neither do those devices that are supposed to remove it from the inside air, my wife is a smoker and we tried them all - none of them work. She now smokes outside on the back porch, regardless of the weather.

So open the garage door and let it all out, or get used to it. Or maybe take the best route and tell them to smoke outside where it's safe.

 

[nine4gmc]

I have a 340 cfm inline 6" blower pulling smoke/paint-glue fumes/farts etc from above my shop area. the inlet duct hose hangs above head height and the outlet is zip tied high into the 14" building roof vent. I have a HF motor speed controller on it and can turn it on/off and anywhere in between depending the severity of stank. even wide open you can talk over the wooosh sound standing under the inlet. The blower motor mounts in the attic so you cant hear it at all. You can also run multiple inlet ducts, like one over the bar, card table, drill press and bathroom with one of these. The more inlets, the larger fan you would need though.

my fan is like this but different brand:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FANTECH-Inline-Fan-15W685?Pid=search

 

[5lima30]

Smoke outside, and if I find butts on the ground, they aren't smoking there ever again.

+1^^^ what he said!

 

[FunkyfullWidth]

Your getting some fantastic/completely irrelevant answers. What size garage are you dealing with? I'm assuming you don't have living space above it? Try one of those whole house fans. Maybe you could find one on craigslist.

I think in the winter no matter what your going to lose alot of heat from the fan. Even not running if you have it in the ceiling/roof.

 

[HOTFR8]

If any one comes here I ask them to smoke outside. Although the same issue with vehicle exhaust fumes would be a problem and in my extended area I am going to look into the idea of an exhaust fan that can fit into the wall mainly in the works area where I will keep the Diesel truck.

 

[red97k1500]

at all of my friends shops/ garages we just open the garage door for a little bit when it gets 2 smokey, then close it. My friend has two bathtroom type vents in his cieling but they dont help that much... The smoke doesnt bother me any way

 

[PRH44]

I haven't seen a system that can get rid of the stench of smoke yet. Good luck

 

[Mmfh]

I don't smoke anymore but my wife still does, I happen to have a little squirl fan from an old air hockey table. I mounted that up with the exhaust going out the eves.

She has to stand fairly close to it, but it does take all the smoke out of the garage. I want my wife to be on board with my garage stuff so I let her smoke.

If you have something similar laying around, might give it a try.

Mm

 

[zoomzoomjeff]

Have you considered a kitchen hood type system, and have them all smoke at a certain area, right underneath the hood? Then, maybe the fan could be controlled by a manual switch or if you got fancy, you could have some type of motion sensor with a timer. Just something to think about.

I just think it would be most efficient, without losing excessive heat, or spending a ton of money on a system, to use a 300-500 cfm hooded area, and have them smoke in that designated area if possible. That limits the time the fan is on, but still evacuates the majority of smoke.

 

[472scout]

How about an whole house fan? http://www.amazon.com/Air-Vent-Whole-House-54301/dp/B0009SNSOS They move a ton of air.

Or get a cheap evaporate cooler motor/fan and jury rig it as an exhaust fan.

 

[jvitez]

For a bunch of tool loving live-and-let-live type of guys, there's a whole heap of self righteousness in this thread. The OP isn't asking if anyone approves or disapproves of smoking! We can ogle scantily clad women in the Hot Women thread, have many posters discuss their pre and/or extra-marital exploits, but no one can mention cigarettes without being shouted down? Heresy! Sacrilege! Burn him! How dare he mention the unmentionable! Wow.......(no, I haven't smoked cigarettes for about 15 years. Used to smoke at most 5 cigarettes a day. I do have the occasional cigar while camping though)

Anyway, what is the cubic volume of your garage? Length x width x height. A reasonable amount of ventilation is 3 air changes per hour. So, for example:

a 24 x 24 x 10 ft garage= 5760 ft3. 3 air change per hour = 3 x 5760= 17280 ft3.

17,280 ft3/hour divided by 60 = 288 cubic feet per minute.

You'll need the same sized air inlet, so if you have a leaky garage already you should be fine. However, heated air out=cold air in, so no matter how you slice it, ventilating the smoke will cost you money to heat the cold fresh air that's replacing the smoky heated air. But hey, good times cost money, and we won't take it with us.

 

[Need4racin]

Damn how do some of you survive at work with co workers smoking while on the job?

 

[HOTFR8]

For a bunch of tool loving live-and-let-live type of guys, there's a whole heap of self righteousness in this thread. The OP isn't asking if anyone approves or disapproves of smoking! We can ogle scantily clad women in the Hot Women thread, have many posters discuss their pre and/or extra-marital exploits, but no one can mention cigarettes without being shouted down? Heresy! Sacrilege! Burn him! How dare he mention the unmentionable! Wow.......(no, I haven't smoked cigarettes for about 15 years. Used to smoke at most 5 cigarettes a day. I do have the occasional cigar while camping though)

WOW that is telling us. Any of my friends know they have to smoke outside due to the law here and I have an ashtray for those that smoke so they know where to find it and how to take it outside . Combustible fuels etc. and smoking make it an insurance nightmare and to add to that I have lost friends to cancer from smoking .

 

[JimVonBaden]

WOW that is telling us. Any of my friends know they have to smoke outside due to the law here and I have an ashtray for those that smoke so they know where to find it and how to take it outside . Combustible fuels etc. and smoking make it an insurance nightmare and to add to that I have lost friends to cancer from smoking .

And this is helpful to the OP how?

Jim

 

[TheNerd]

I would find new friends that dont smoke, that would be the easiest/cheapest way to fix the problem.

 

[smschriefer]

And this is helpful to the OP how?

Jim

It is helpful because it provides him with options beyond what he proposed. I agree, if someone wants to smoke - fine. If it is in my garage, my rules are followed. If the OP is fine with the smoke, he needs ventilation, but he does have a two fold problem and that is he also posted that his structure is far from air tight.

The real question is when he does improve the ventilation, how expensive will it be for him to keep the space properly heated in the winter. It sounds like he needs a system for both refreshing the air supply as well as supplemental heat to offset the heat loss caused by the new ventilation system and drafts from other sources that will increase as soon as he puts a negative pressure inside the building. If his friends were really good friends, they wouldn't put a financial bind on him to remedy the issue. They would go outside and smoke. Of course that is my opinion and he might not agree.

 

[JimVonBaden]

It is helpful because it provides him with options beyond what he proposed.

Telling his friends to smoke outside isn't providing an option for the OP. I believe he is smart enough to come up with that one on his own, and has rejected the idea!

Those kinds of posts serve no purpose other than to expound the non-smokers opinion! Doesn't help the OP at all!

Jim

 

[trainer]

electronic smoke eater? I'm certain that there must be some commercial units on the used market now with all the smoking bans in restraunts and bars.

http://www.smoke-eaters-supply.com/commercial-smoke-eaters.html

 

[tncatadjuster]

http://www.purifan.com/

 

[Plump]

Thanks to those with real ideas. I do have them smoke outside when it's reasonable and never around the kids. One of the reasons my neighbor and I have made our garages partly into partying space is that they can't smoke at the bar, and we can't afford to go to the bar anyway. I have a concrete ashtray next to the door and no, I never find butts around the yard. It gets ridiculously cold here in the winter and we watch a lot of sporting events that sitting outside in the cold/rain/snow, isn't conducive to. OK people?!?!

The garage is about 20' x 60' and I'm not looking to clear out the air completely, just get rid of the major haze. I know I'm losing heat to the outside not having a tightly buttoned-up garage, partly on purpose so that I don't need to worry about CO, etc. It's much better than when I moved in 8 years ago now that I've insulated the walls and ceiling, drywall and OSB walls, and about 50% of the ceiling drywalled.

For the whole house fan, can they be mounted on a ceiling and ducted or is it more a slap on the wall deal? I'm definitely NOT an HVAC guy so I'm really at your mercy.

Oh, and I do have a small ceiling fan that really helps with heating and at least moving the air around.

 

[smschriefer]

Those kinds of posts serve no purpose other than to expound the non-smokers opinion! Doesn't help the OP at all!

I understand your position. At the same time nobody has provided him with a solution that won't cost a fortune.

Let's say he shores up the garage, makes it air tight, insulates it, installs a heater, and a nice ventilation source. For giggles, let's say it costs him $500 to do all of this - a way low estimate. Are his buddies picking up any of the expense? He might as well tell them the next 20 cases of beer are on him. Would his buddies all say great and not argue that they should pick up some of the cost?

All we are saying is friends shouldn't put you in a situation where you are forced to unload healthy sums of cash to resolve something they are doing that at some level you find objectionable and is an issue that is already known by all. He might be the host and feel obligated to be hospitable, but the guest has obligations as well for not imposing on the generosity of the host. It isn't a matter of smoking - it is a matter of respect of your property and your finances.

 

[smschriefer]

Plump, the whole house fan is an attic fan and just mounts into the ceiling and vents into the attic. They are a bit noisy, but you wouldn't run it continuously as they move a ton of air. They aren't too costly either. What do you use as a heat source? You might need to upgrade if you ventilate straight out the attic. Have you thought of some sort of heat exchanger to warm the air coming into the garage at the same time you expel air? HVAC guys can speak better to that option than me. I just know it helps reduce the cost of heating the replacement air.

In your last post it sounds like there is space between your two garages. Could you put a roof over it for protection from the elements for people to smoke outside and maybe put a hotdog style heater to keep the chill off?

 

[Jagmandave]

I appreciate what you guys are saying - both sides of the fence....

However, do not waste your money on one of those smoke eater, smoke purifier deals, they don't work - as I wrote before, my wife smokes and we've bought and tried most of them - total waste of money.

Since you're only trying to ease the haze and the smell doesn't seem to be an issue, you don't need a lot of cfm, and it seems to me you'd want it mounted high to help move that haze off the ceiling, so if you have it, a gable fan seems like it would work the best, and locate a closeable inlet across the other side of the room to admit the fresh air.

I know you don't want to invest a lot in this project, but the cost of making up the heat will probably be the major expense....

My point - besides the smell - was that it's really not safe to smoke in an enclosed room where there are flamable liquids, so either buy a safe cabinet for them, or don't do it. You can't afford to drink at a bar (which doesn't allow smoking either) but can you afford to replace your garage and everything in it after a fire?

I think the "send them outside to smoke group" has it right......from all sides of the coin.

I hold shop days at my place for the local MINI Cooper club, and smokers must step outside regardless of the weather, because I will not let them endanger me, my friends or my shop.

 

[BigWil]

What I would do is put two fans in on opposite sides of the garage, with louvred vents. Put them both on one timer switch, have one blowing in fresh air, one blowing out the smokey air. Line them up with the bar area, and when it gets too smoky, just turn the fans on for 15 minutes.

We have a system like that using gable vents in the Auto Hobby Club I'm the vice president at, and it works very well (not for cigarette smoke, but for fumes from running vehicles, grinding, welding, drawing out humidity from washing vehicles etc) It will be hard on the heating bill, but it would be your cheapest bet.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200460182_200460182

 

[Brad54]

Damn how do some of you survive at work with co workers smoking while on the job?

It's at work. It's not OUR building that WE paid to have built, that WE paid to fill with tools and equipment.
The guy is looking at spending more money so other people can come and stink up his shop.

I like to drink the occasional beer.
Urine is a byproduct of that particular action.
Would anybody recommend letting me piss in the corner, rather than risk offending me by telling me to step outside and water a tree?

I took a metal coffee can, punched a few holes in the bottom of it to drain water, painted it red, filled it with oil dry, and set it out front at the door. Anyone who comes over and smokes has always had the courtesy to say "do you mind if I smoke in your shop?" To which I reply "Actually, if you could, I've got a ****-can out front by the door there."

I've got too many other things to spend money on that are higher on the priority list than "facilitating my friends stinking up my shop."

Also guys, it's not just the smoke that is a problem. They end up getting ashes all over the floor, which contributes to the smell of a shop. But what I have found to be many, many times worse is when they put their cig butts in a soda can or their disposable drink cup, and then throw those in my shop garbage can.
First, I recycle all my aluminum cans, so that irks me.
But worse, it's a stench that is just awful. Many times worse than the smoke. Then I have to empty all my trash cans, half the time there's liquid in their cup or can, which dumps into my trash can (I don't dump liquid in my garbage cans... it gets dumped outside every time). Screw that. It's a nasty mess all the way around. Smoke outside, and throw the **** in the **** can I provided for you.

No smoking in the shop.

-Brad

 

[X1 Mike]

The douchebaggery in this thread rivals Free Parking. The OP didn't ask anyones opinion on smoking or if he should let people smoke. He presented a problem and asked for specific solutions. If you don't have one STFU because people get sick of listening to you.


With that all being said:

I have no suggestions but I am watching this thread to see if any good solution comes up.