circuit breaker keeps tripping out

[jaye944]

ok I have (I think a weird setup)

The house from new so no-one as messed with this.

OK, I had a weird trip-out and I managed to trace it..

So.... from the main electrical box in the basement, there is a CB (which is fine) this looks like it supplies mains to the upstairs sockets,

in the upstairs bathroom, there is a (3 point) 2 plug soucket with an integeral CB switch, so when it trips a red button pops out.
(we'll call this bathroom 1)

now Bathroom 2 (my bathroom) has a similar arrangement.

NOW.....

I can put anything into this socket with no issues, BUT, at different times, sometimes when my wife uses her point, it will trip HER plug point, which takes out my one and all the other sockets on route to my washroom.

I also note that when I put a heater say, into her socket, the light bulb in the ceiling dims notieably then goes back up, (I would have thought that this is 2 different circuits.

I keep tripping her CB manually to fix it, happens like once every couple of weeks. Hasn't always done this.. am wondering if I should try replacing her power outlet with int CB?

cheers

 

[jaye944]

or swap the 2 plugs/cb units with each other to see if this moves the problem, hence prooving if that part is at fault?

 

[larry_g]

Are you sure that your not dealing with GFCI sockets?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Im wondering why theres multiple gfi's on same circuit?

 

[1/2 Cup]

Im wondering why theres multiple gfi's on same circuit?

As above???? sound odd

 

[toplessHO]

just for testing can you run a temp neutral wire from panel?

GFCIs do get tired and also dont like hairdryers etc

 

[n8n]

Sounds like GFCIs and 1st one probably passes through to 2nd. I would reconfig the 1st one so tripping that one does not shut off downstream recep & replace it at the same time (move all wires to 'line' terminals) that way reset button for each location is at that location

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

 

[jaye944]

yes just googled, its a gfci ! one in each bathroom

Are you sure that your not dealing with GFCI sockets?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[jaye944]

is it bad... read.. dangerous ?

As above???? sound odd

 

[jaye944]

not sure how to do that... the banel is 2 floors down in the basement,

yes, seems mainly hairdryers/room fan heaters.

everything else downstream of that gfci, is fine, i.e. plug anything in and its ok.
what I don't understand is why would a socket on the wall, dim a lighting circuit (bulb in same room) thought they had to be on different circuits?

tired... hmm, I'm pretty happy to do a straight swap out, might resolve the problem

just for testing can you run a temp neutral wire from panel?

GFCIs do get tired and also dont like hairdryers etc

 

[1/2 Cup]

I am not sure of exactly what your codes require in regard to GFIs, but out here its for every one circuit up to 20 amps you have one GFI protecting it at the switchboard.

Putting GFIs down stream of another can cause nuisance tripping, assuming that it has been installed correctly in the first instance, if every outlet has its own GFI I would suspect it could be either a faulty unit or what you are plugging into it has an issue.

Regards

 

[jaye944]

Thanks,

in the whole house there are only 4 gfi's

in both bathrooms, (assuming for shaver/heater etc)
one by the front door (outside in a covered unit)
one by the back garden door (same thing)

as it happens both bathrooms are upstairs, if they are on the same circuit
doesnt sound right, and is probably as you say causing nuisance tripping.

only one bathroom trips the other and not the other way round, so , now, after reading, I'm leaning on that one being a bit "weak" if thats the word?

I am not sure of exactly what your codes require in regard to GFIs, but out here its for every one circuit up to 20 amps you have one GFI protecting it at the switchboard.

Putting GFIs down stream of another can cause nuisance tripping, assuming that it has been installed correctly in the first instance, if every outlet has its own GFI I would suspect it could be either a faulty unit or what you are plugging into it has an issue.

Regards

 

[1/2 Cup]

A GFI, we call them Residual Current Devices ( RCD ) or safety switches out here, can and do degrade in performance over time. This can be due to a number of factors.
They can be tested with the correct equipment to check to see whether or not they will operate within spec.

Regards

 

[cmanningjr]

More than one GFCI on the same circuit can make them trip each other as stated above.
There may be more elsewhere in the house on the same circuit. (Outside, basement, garage, ect)

Depending on how it was pulled would determine how to properly and safely fix it.

You really need a qualified electrician to trace it out and repair it properly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jaye944]

Thanks,

I'm assuming that as the house was a new build, I "assume" it was up to code.

At present, I think I'll just get a new one and fit it and see if that remedies it or swap the 2 upstairs ones out, as the other rfi is at the end of the loop, I dont think it will effect the one before it, or maybe it will?

haha

More than one GFCI on the same circuit can make them trip each other as stated above.
There may be more elsewhere in the house on the same circuit. (Outside, basement, garage, ect)

Depending on how it was pulled would determine how to properly and safely fix it.

You really need a qualified electrician to trace it out and repair it properly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[n8n]

I see you are in canada, so I can't speak with 100% confidence...

for bathroom receps, IN THE US you are allowed to feed one bathroom from another as long as the circuit is a 20A circuit dedicated to the receps. OR you can run a dedicated 20A circuit to each bathroom to feed everything (receps, light, fan)

As I said before, if you have one circuit feeding two bathrooms, I would not have a GFCI fed by the load side of another GFCI. I actually like the idea of having a GFCI in each bathroom rather than replacing the one in the downstream bathroom with a standard recep, but I would definitely move the wires feeding it from the "load" terminals on the 1st GFCI to the "line" terminals.

 

[MoonRise]

The wiring could be done 'to code', and still be stupid.

'code' is the -minimum- that has to be done.

Bathrooms don't have to be on their own dedicated circuits (at least as-of a few years ago), so you could have the wiring going through multiple bedroom outlets/receptacles as well as the bathroom outlets/receptacles (again, as -of a few years ago and prior to the AFCI requirements).

As mentioned above, you don't want to daisy-chain GFCIs. No reason to, no benefit to do so, and doesn't make much sense.

You can have an upstream GFCI properly protect all downstream outlets. Common arrangement, no real 'problems' to doing that (except the a downstream GFCI 'fault' means you have to know and find the upstream GFCI that tripped).

Step #1 : Honestly evaluate if you can figure this out yourself. Wiring isn't rocket science or brain surgery, but get it wrong and you can have probelms ranging from property damage to injury to death.

Step #2 : Figure out which outlets and lights are on which actual "circuit". Once you have that all figured out (note that household wiring is often NOT all that logical from a user standpoint), you can then proceed to try and figure out what is actually going on.

Note that a hairdryer is usually a pretty high-amp device, and if some lights and other 'devices' are on at the same time, then a 15-amp GFCI will often trip (not from a ground-fault condition, but from the 15 amp current limit).

As to the two GFCIs possible being daisy-chained, it could be because someone replaced an outlet that was downstream from the GFCI because they didn't know or understand that the outlet was already being protected from the upstream GFCI (if it was wired correctly to protect downstream devices).

Or they thought 'more is better'.

Or they were idiots.

Or they miswired things.

Or some combination of all of the above.

And you won't know what is going on until you map-out what outlets/receptables/lights/devices are on what circuits and try and figure out what is upstream and downstream of what else. And possible go in and check the workmanship and connections of all the switches and outlets and GFCI outlets.

Fixable? Probably. But not from a couple of paragraphs over the 'Net.

 

[warren57]

Is the breaker a gfi or arc fault? Arc fault breakers detect the slightest arc condition, anything from an arc inside a switch when you turn it off or on, any brush type motor device plugged in, a hair dryer, anything that has a natural arc. Even a light bulb burning out can trip these. Arc fault breakers are code created devices that is totally un-necessary and a pain, dreamt up by some fools with to much time on their hands, with no common sense.
It your breaker is a gfi, something is going to ground, a switch, a receptacle, a fixture, a drywall screw/nail that is touching wires, wires that have insulation rubbed off (a squirrel chewing things in the attic), or easiest of all a weak breaker.
Regardless of breaker type, try replacing that first!

 

[jaye944]

Thankxs all,

So I understand what everyone is saying (and thanks for all the input)

Maybe I mis-quoted. but what I mean is that, we had the house from new, no-one has done any work on the Electrics.

So the 2 GFCI's are as installed by the original housebuilder/contractor, so am assuming it was put in as per regs and code and tested accordingly.

So if there was something wrong with it i.e. downstream issue, I assume it should have been picked up then.

IF I was to get into re-wiring, I would get a certified leccy in to check etc, the reason I don't wanna do anything OTHER than replace it, is it may effect my insurance if for example as I'm not bonded certified to do such work.

I believe I can swap out like for like. But not modify (well at least not without an inspection.

It just seems logical to me to swap the 2 around to proove the fault and or just replace it. AFAIK house was new about 2004 or so years old? I've been there since 2010 and only the 2nd or 3rd year I discovered this issue.

BTW, all the RFI's look like below


taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[justsam]

Note that a hairdryer is usually a pretty high-amp device, and if some lights and other 'devices' are on at the same time, then a 15-amp GFCI will often trip (not from a ground-fault condition, but from the 15 amp current limi

While I certainly agree with the bulk of your suggestions, the above component is just not so.

The ONLY thing a GFCI does is look for a current imbalance between neutral and hot, not to exceed 5mA. This insures there is no other path, such as your body or wiring fault, other than the proper one between hot and neutral.

The tripping from excess current, or overload is the task of the circuit breaker, and it's job is to protect wiring from overheating and causing issues related to overheating.

GFCIs may be rated 15 or 20Amp but that has to do with receptacle face configuration, not with providing a circuit breaker load function. Even 15Amp GFCI are rated for 20Amp pass

 

[MoonRise]

Jaye,

That's a 'standard' GFCI outlet.

OK, you are the first and only owner of the dwelling and -you- haven't changed anything around on the electrical outlets/breakers/GFCIs.

But as to the assumption that everything was done 'right' by the original builder/contractors, that's still an ***umption.

As to 'testing' the electrical, there is usually no 'testing' done. Look at the wiring and see if black-to-black and white-to-white and the wires are put in the right places is about it.

Sometimes, someone will go through and plug in a 'tester' into all/some outlets and verify that the status lights indicate 'good' You can get such a tester for about $10-$20 or so IIRC. The 'fancy' one lets you check GFCIs too.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-...-clams-master-GFI-3501/202867890?N=5yc1vZboff

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-To...=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-203195019-_-N

Just stick the tester into the outlet in question and look at the staus lights. Quick and easy and tells you gross-status if the outlet wiring is OK or screwed up.

Instead of just going in and swapping GFCIs around, map out what outlets/lights/devices are on what actual circuits. After you know that, then you can start digging further to see if your GFCIs are OK or mis-wired originally (feed-through versus daisy-chained if the two GFCIs are both on the same actual circuit).

 

[MoonRise]

While I certainly agree with the bulk of your suggestions, the above component is just not so.

The ONLY thing a GFCI does is look for a current imbalance between neutral and ground, not to exceed 5mA. This insures there is no other path, such as your body or wiring fault, other than the proper one between hot and neutral.

The tripping from excess current, or overload is the task of the circuit breaker, and it's job is to protect wiring from overheating and causing issues related to overheating.

GFCIs may be rated 15 or 20Amp but that has to do with receptacle face configuration, not with providing a circuit breaker load function. Even 15Amp GFCI are rated for 20Amp pass

Generally, a GFCI is just supposed to trip on a ground-fault condition. Absolutely agree.

But I've experienced multiple instances when a plain incandescent light bulb (100-150W garage bulb btw, not anything 'monster') burns out and it pops the upstream GFCI outlet to know that GFCIs sometimes trip in a non ground-fault condition. Also the multiple hairdryers (which each have their own GFCI plug on the devices cords themselves) going simultaneously on the same GFCI-protected circuit and it trips the upstream GFCI outlet and -not- the panel 15 amp circuit breaker.

YMMV, etc, etc.

 

[jaye944]

Jaye,

That's a 'standard' GFCI outlet.

OK, you are the first and only owner of the dwelling and -you- haven't changed anything around on the electrical outlets/breakers/GFCIs.

But as to the assumption that everything was done 'right' by the original builder/contractors, that's still an ***umption.
fair comment


As to 'testing' the electrical, there is usually no 'testing' done. Look at the wiring and see if black-to-black and white-to-white and the wires are put in the right places is about it.
ok,


Sometimes, someone will go through and plug in a 'tester' into all/some outlets and verify that the status lights indicate 'good' You can get such a tester for about $10-$20 or so IIRC. The 'fancy' one lets you check GFCIs too.
thats a great idea, like only 10 bucks, well worth it


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-...-clams-master-GFI-3501/202867890?N=5yc1vZboff

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-To...=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-203195019-_-N

Just stick the tester into the outlet in question and look at the staus lights. Quick and easy and tells you gross-status if the outlet wiring is OK or screwed up.

Instead of just going in and swapping GFCIs around, map out what outlets/lights/devices are on what actual circuits. After you know that, then you can start digging further to see if your GFCIs are OK or mis-wired originally (feed-through versus daisy-chained if the two GFCIs are both on the same actual circuit).

cool, what I'll do is pop into HD and get one and report back
I'm off on Thursday, and they when it comes to messing with electrics, flipping fuses, pop's always told me to do in during the daylight

cool advise will have a check and report back many thanks !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Djstorm100]

My GFI in my garage (have 2 of them in line and then a regular receptacle at the end, 3 total receptacles). Starting on the left wall, then on the back wall and then regular receptacle on the right wall. When I would plug in my power strip for my Craftsman work bench and turn it on it would trip the GFI. About 50% of the time when I turn the work light power strip on it would trip the GFI. So I said the hell with it and replace it with normal 15 amp receptacle and it's been fine every since.

The GFI that I was having problem with, show to have been arching. When I took it out I didn't see any problem with insulation.

 

[jaye944]

Feel a bit silly

OK, why I thought there was 2 rfi's I dont know.

I double checked a few things so this is confirmed

* There is an RFI in Bathroom 1 (wifes)
* NO RFI DOWNSTREAM just a standard 2 plug point
* The RFI has black test button, I can trip it manually and can confirm that the plug socket in my bathroom is the only thing it's connected to upstairs

* When I try to trip it, I put into the RFI , a heater fan in it and even a hairdryer at the same time BOTH plugs, simulate switching both on and off, and NO TRIP

*I try the same thing in my bathroom and cant trip the RFI

*When I put a heater in the RFI and switch the switch, the lightbulb in same bathroom flickers

* When I have a heater connected to the RFI and then connect a hairdryer, if I turn the heater switch from 1 bar (lo pwer) to 2 bars (hi pwer) the hairdryer speed tone changes, as if its speed is slowing down



Going to get one of them testers and also pull the thing out and check the wiring next few days

cheeeeeeers all

 

[justsam]

Feel a bit silly

OK, why I thought there was 2 rfi's I dont know.

I double checked a few things so this is confirmed

* There is an RFI in Bathroom 1 (wifes)
* NO RFI DOWNSTREAM just a standard 2 plug point
* The RFI has black test button, I can trip it manually and can confirm that the plug socket in my bathroom is the only thing it's connected to upstairs

* When I try to trip it, I put into the RFI , a heater fan in it and even a hairdryer at the same time BOTH plugs, simulate switching both on and off, and NO TRIP

*I try the same thing in my bathroom and cant trip the RFI

*When I put a heater in the RFI and switch the switch, the lightbulb in same bathroom flickers

* When I have a heater connected to the RFI and then connect a hairdryer, if I turn the heater switch from 1 bar (lo pwer) to 2 bars (hi pwer) the hairdryer speed tone changes, as if its speed is slowing down



Going to get one of them testers and also pull the thing out and check the wiring next few days

cheeeeeeers all

I would not be using two "heating element" devices on one circuit at the same time.

Assuming the hair dryer and the heater each may be rated at something like 1500 Watts, you could be drawing close to 25 Amps. The circuit breaker should be tripping under these conditions if true.

Please confirm that someone has not "oversized" this breaker in order to prevent tripping, as it could lead to a dangerous condition of overheating the wiring in the walls.

Lights dimming with this type of load is a result of the voltage drop and is "normal".

 

[MoonRise]

Feel a bit silly

OK, why I thought there was 2 rfi's I dont know.

I double checked a few things so this is confirmed

* There is an RFI in Bathroom 1 (wifes)
* NO RFI DOWNSTREAM just a standard 2 plug point
* The RFI has black test button, I can trip it manually and can confirm that the plug socket in my bathroom is the only thing it's connected to upstairs

* When I try to trip it, I put into the RFI , a heater fan in it and even a hairdryer at the same time BOTH plugs, simulate switching both on and off, and NO TRIP

*I try the same thing in my bathroom and cant trip the RFI

*When I put a heater in the RFI and switch the switch, the lightbulb in same bathroom flickers

* When I have a heater connected to the RFI and then connect a hairdryer, if I turn the heater switch from 1 bar (lo pwer) to 2 bars (hi pwer) the hairdryer speed tone changes, as if its speed is slowing down



Going to get one of them testers and also pull the thing out and check the wiring next few days

cheeeeeeers all

OK, there is only one GFCI outlet and if you hit the built-in "test" button on that, the GFCI trips properly and the only other outlet that stops working is the outlet in the other bathroom.

Sounds like the GFCI is working 'normally' and the other outlet that goes dead when the GFCI trips is downstream of the GFCI and being protected by it.

All sounds normal, so far.

As to plugging in a heater and a hairdryer at the same and the bathroom light dims a bit and the fan(s) sound like they get a bit 'slower', that sounds like mostly 'normal' voltage drop when there is a large-ish amperage load on a circuit.

But don't run/use multiple high-amp devices at the same time on the same circuit. You -will- most likely trip the circuit breaker in the panel because you are drawing so many amps at once.

Your latest description sounds like things are pretty 'normal'.

If you want, get the tester I mentioned (or similar) and go around to all your outlets. Just for peace-of-mind, and all that.

You could also (Carefully!!) remove the cover plates and check that all the wire connections to light switches and outlets and wire nuts are snug and tight and that there is no evidence of arcing.

Turn off the power before doing this!

 

[jaye944]

thankxs all,

What I was trying to do, was to see if I could get it to trip,
but I can't seem to. usually my wife would not use both thoes things,
but trying to dismiss, higher amperage or such tripping the other socket.
In other words I can tell her "hey don't do that"

but as that is "all she is likly to do", it cant be that,
something is causing that other socket to trip,

I'll do somore testing and also get that tester,

just as another though, could SHE be touching somthing, maybe with damp hands which is causing the other socket to trip.

Not that she would do that but is it possible?

For the RFI to trip, I "think" its nothing to do with an OVERamperage but like a ground/short to earth, like if you cut a wire, or touch a hot wire and earth it?

cheers

 

[jaye944]

Turn off the power before doing this!

HAHAHAH LOLZ

 

[lksdrinker]

Wow this thread is confusing to read!

It sounds like you really have no problem whatsoever? But a new GFCI receptacle is relatively cheap and easy to change so you might as well just go for it at this point. Just hook up the new one exactly the same as the old and pay careful attention to what is coming into the receptacle (on the line side) and whats going out (on the load side). It'll probably cost right around the same amount to buy a new one and replace rather than buying the tester mentioned above!

It also sounds like you're confused on the difference between a circuit breaker and a GFCI. Trying to overload the circuit by plugging in the heater and the hair dryer (which is probably not a wise thing to do on a normal basis) should not affect the GFCI (although as someone noted above it apparently can even thought thats not the intent!). If you overload the circuit then a circuit breaker should trip and not the GFCI. If you interrupt the ground (say by having a wet finger touching the plug) then the GFCI should trip and not the circuit breaker.

 

[jaye944]

understood that now thanks

If you overload the circuit then a circuit breaker should trip and not the GFCI. If you interrupt the ground (say by having a wet finger touching the plug) then the GFCI should trip and not the circuit breaker.

 

[jaye944]

managed to get it to trip, albeit by accident !

I was giving my daughter a bath, or rather helping her out inthe shower etc,

so as it was a bit nippy, I had the heater plugged in. moved it from the bathroom, to the bedroom (still keeping it plugged in, just moving the heater physically while still connected) to warm the room up a bit.

as I had one hand on the light switch (the light switch has 2 switches, 1 for the bulb and one for the over head extractor fan.)

now, as I blindly was trying to switch off the light, I hit the wrong switch, (extractor) swicthing, again, trying to get the right ones on and off , blindly again.

The GFCI popped.

Now I noticed that when the extractor fan turns on, it has a bit of a laboured
wind up, before it gets to full speed. (The other 3 extractor fans in the house dont make this kinda sound)

I think now, that this is what is happening. Weird that the extractor is not on the same circuit.

I couldnt reproduce it as I was busy with said daughter.

Think this is what wife is doing, in her bathroom, the light swicth and extractors are on different positions than the rest of the house ones, so looking at the switch, LEFT is extractor RIGHT is lights.. opposite on the rest of the other 2 in the house.

Also, downstairs, next to the HVAC thermostat control panel, is a SINGLE swicth (wired on a separate on/off light swicth type thing) WHICH only switches the extractor in her bathroom (on/off) only, and I've never been able to work out why !

I'm going to try and reproduce this, and also see about getting a tester tonight from HD

I may even upload a video

laters