circuit breaker question

[Jaguar Fan]

I'm hoping a licensed electrician can give me some tips. This isn't my garage; it is in my kitchen (the house was built in the early 1990s in California, if that matters for the code standards the electrician should have used at the time).

I have a 15 amp circuit breaker that will periodically pop IF all the lights are on in my kitchen. It doesn't happen always. For the past 16 years, to avoid the problem, we just don't turn on all the lights. But we plan to sell the house and the realtor wants all the lights on & of course we want everything to work.

The circuit breaker is a tandem 15a/15a Challenger Type A Two Pole J721.

I added up the current draw, and I come up with more like 18 amps. I may not be doing this correctly as there is a combination of incandescent floods, florescent tubes, and low-voltage lights all on this circuit breaker, and I may not be doing the math right.

Let's say I *am* doing the math right. Is there a way for me or a licensed electrician to determine if it is OK to replace the 15a/15a with a 20a/15a tandem breaker?

Or, if it is not feasible, I guess I can pull out a bunch of 75w floods and replace them with 65w or 40w, but I need help in determining if I'm doing the math right with the flourescents & low voltage lights.

So, here goes. One one 15a circuit breaker there are:

• 11 60w PAR 16 narrow spot bulbs, which adds up to 660 watts
• 10 75w floods; that adds up to 750 watts
• 3 120w floods that adds up to 360 watts
• 6 30w flourescent tubes, adding to 180w
• 6 8w flourescent mini tubes adding 48w
• 2 13w flourescent tubes = 26w
• 4 50w 12 volt low voltage spots = 200w; do I need to look at the transformer instead?

So, by my math, that adds up to 2224 watts. Divide by 120 volts and you get 18.58333 amps on a 15 amp circuit breaker.

Am I doing this right? Because there are 4 low voltage 50w 12 volt spots, do I need to find the transformer instead?

OK, so... in the Challenger panel, all the breakers are tandem units. Most are 15a/15a, some are 20a/20a and a few are 15a/20a.

There are no more slots open in this box (I have another box in the garage).

In case it helps, here is a pic of the box:

 

[mrb]

That circuit is overloaded. You cannot replace the breaker with a larger one. Some of the load needs to get moved to another circuit.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If the floods are simply the outdoor type flood lights, they make a compact fluorescent version of these that looks just like the regular incandescent. This will help unload your circuit.

Beyond that, you do need to split this circuit up, probably getting the floods off of it would be a good start.

Charles

 

[Jaguar Fan]

(sigh). I was afraid of that.

 

[Chris Adams]

While I would probably take time to shoot the 'electrician' that did that mess, in the mean time I would go by Costco (if you can) and buy the 15 watt floods they are selling for 2.48 for six. Yup, 40 cents apiece while the rebate is on.
That would drop you below the threshold.

On all the lights I would use nothing but low draw bulbs for safety.

But yeah, you are boned. If you know about this problem, and you do, you are required by law most everywhere to report it during the sale.

Probably cheapest to get a good electrician to 'offload' some of the lights to another circuit. Drawing a new one in is also possible but I suspect you could shift some of the lights to another line cheaper.

Best of luck with it.

 

[walrus]

You cannot replace the breaker with a larger one. .

Assuming its #14 wire, if its # 12 you could go up but its still overloaded

 

[ArthurPE]

I would lamp down...
get the wattage below 1440 for the 15A
if it's #12 wire, go with a 20A CB and get below 1920W


check the LV transformer or lamp rating...I doubt they are 50W each, that's 4 amps at 12VDC...

 

[Jaguar Fan]

Just came back from Costco. I bought CFLs -- a 6 pack of R30 reflector 15w each (designed to replace 65w incandescent) was about $9 after an instant rebate. I took down 10x75w floods and replaced them with 10x15w CFL floods.

Nothing is popping.

Now, I didn't mention it in my first post, but a similar problem just for the first time crept up in my living room. By my calculation, it has 3470 watts (it includes some low voltage so I may not be doing the addition right). On a 20 amp breaker.

I bought CFLs to replace 100w floods in light cans. 12 of them. A four-pack is just under $10 after instant rebate.

 

[walrus]

Now, I didn't mention it in my first post, but a similar problem just for the first time crept up in my living room. By my calculation, it has 3470 watts (it includes some low voltage so I may not be doing the addition right). On a 20 amp breaker..

A lighting circuit is considered continous, so you can only load a 20 amp circuit to 16 amps, 12 amps for a 15 amp circuit.

Are there any tags in your can lights that set a limit on bulb wattage? 100 watt flood seems high.??

 

[Jaguar Fan]

A lighting circuit is considered continous, so you can only load a 20 amp circuit to 16 amps, 12 amps for a 15 amp circuit.

Are there any tags in your can lights that set a limit on bulb wattage? 100 watt flood seems high.??

Yes, the cans with 100w bulbs are labeled OK for it. The cans are up pretty high (from 14 to 20 feet) which is why I guess the larger wattage was spec'd. Other cans that had had 75w floods (or a few 65w) are labeled for 75w but they are on 10 foot ceilings.

Actually, 6 of the cans (24 feet up) are 150 watt max cans with 150 watt bulbs (I didn't realize it until I got up there. Getting up there is another story and a PIA.)

So, given the "continuous load" issue you describe, my problem is even worse than I thought. I wonder why the electrician who wired it did it this way. He installed all the cans, track lighting, bulbs, etc so I know he is fully aware of the load. It is a fully custom home, and he was the electrician from start to finish. I found his phone number & called him, leaving a message. If he calls me back on Monday I'll try to ask him nicely about this.

 

[Rob_b]

First, I'd suggest getting another electrician. Sounds like the first guy put wayyyy to many devices on one circuit. Allows no safety factor. If your able, always use #12 on a 15amp. Never replace a breaker with a larger one without improving the wire its feeding. Its a fire waiting to happen. I believe NEC allows for up to 12 devices on a circuit, which includes lights, switches and outlets. My rule of thumb is limit them to 10. If you have high load outlets, feed them with a single isolated breaker. Wire is not that expensive. If your required to run conduit, keep in mind that if you have multiple wires in them, you have to derate that circuit by as much as 50% depending on how full that conduit is, which also has limits. If you need specific numbers, I'll break out the NEC bible to get them.

 

[tdkkart]

It would have been interesting to check the circuit with a clamp-on ammeter for a before and after reading when you changed the bulbs.

Not so sure I'd call the original electrician, he was aan idiot. Besides code compliance, there is simple common sense that says you don't put all the lighting in a room, or in a complete section of the house, on the same breaker if possible.
He also apparently max'd out the breaker panel with no room for future expansion, so here you are now needing another breaker with no room in your panel.