Circuit Breaker Tracing Experience

[DC73]

I had an interesting (to me) circuit breaker tracing experience recently. Thought I would share in case someone else comes across the same issue I did.

Background: I've been in this house about 18 months and decided to replace the poor quality outlets and switches the builder used. The circuit breaker panel was very poorly labeled so the first step was to buy a Klein Circuit Breaker Finder and map out which breakers fed which outlets and fixtures. For those who don't know, these tools consist of a transmitter that plugs into an outlet and a receiver that is used to find which breaker is feeding that circuit. I also picked up a screw in adapter so I could use the transmitter on light fixtures. The tool works well (read the instructions - you have to make one pass over each breaker in the panel to calibrate the receiver and then make a second pass to actually find the breaker).

The circuit breaker finder worked well on all but two circuits. On those two circuits, it would not work at all. It turned out the problem was identical EFI brand surge protectors plugged into outlets on each of those circuits.

On a whim, I tried unplugging one of the EFI surge protectors and sure enough, the circuit breaker finder worked again. Unplugged the other one and got the same results. So, these two surge protectors were somehow blocking the signal sent by the transmitter.

I didn't pick up on this right away because I have 7 or 8 point of use surge protectors around the house including 3 high quality Tripp Lite devices for my sensitive electronics. None of the other surge protectors caused this issue, only the two EFI units. It didn't matter where the transmitter was plugged in, nor did it matter where the EFI surge protector was plugged in. As long as one of the EFI surge protectors was plugged in somewhere on the circuit, the circuit breaker finder would not work on that circuit.

So, what's different about these two EFI surge protectors? As best I can tell and without opening them up for inspection, the major difference between the two EFI units and the other surge protectors I have including the Tripp Lites is that when the surge protection fails in the EFI units, the entire device fails so that the outlets no longer work. In my other units, the outlets keep working when the surge protection fails (an indicator light goes out to indicate failure of the surge protection).

DC

 

[slowzuki]

They have a high pass filter filtering out noise over 60 hz. Happens that circuit finders use radio noise higher than 60 hz to find the circuit.

Most fancy ones for stereos and recording equipment have chokes/filters on them to stop radio noise from getting into the equipment from the power supply.

You would likely find internet over power devices won't work in the same surge suppressors you had trouble with.

 

[westom]

'Point of use' protectors are typically so tiny as to even fail. Some protectors have filters to protect tiny MOVs; to make protector failure less frequent; to absorb surge energy (and Klein's signals). Apparently, an EFI has filters that absorb energy to better protect its MOVs; Tripplite does not.

Protectors adjacent to appliances must either 'absorb' or 'block' a surge. Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does EFI and Tripplite claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? Those numbers would identify near zero protectors that fail on (rather than protect from) surges. And that use filters to absorb energy so that grossly undersized protector failure is less often.

Effective protectors do not fail on surges. Effective protection means one can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

 

[dave*99]

'Point of use' protectors are typically so tiny as to even fail. Some protectors have filters to protect tiny MOVs; to make protector failure less frequent; to absorb surge energy (and Klein's signals). Apparently, an EFI has filters that absorb energy to better protect its MOVs; Tripplite does not.

Protectors adjacent to appliances must either 'absorb' or 'block' a surge. Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does EFI and Tripplite claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? Those numbers would identify near zero protectors that fail on (rather than protect from) surges. And that use filters to absorb energy so that grossly undersized protector failure is less often.

Effective protectors do not fail on surges. Effective protection means one can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

Effective should mean the product protected the other equipment it was installed to protect. One may not prefer a disposable type of protection, but it can still be effective in providing protection.

 

[westom]

One may not prefer a disposable type of protection, but it can still be effective in providing protection.

It is called electricity. If a surge current is incoming to a protector, that same current at the same time is also outgoing into attached appliances. Long after that current was everywhere in a path from a cloud to earthborne charges miles away, and long after a surge is done, then something in that path may fail.

Superior protection already inside appliances means that current caused no appliance damage. Unfortunately many forget how electricity works. First to fail might be a near zero joule protector (after a surge current is done). Many believe urban myths such as "My protector sacrificed itself to save my appliance." Myth works because many want to believe what they are first told - not how science and electricity work.

Fire is a problem with undersized protectors. Anyone can read specification numbers. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does a near zero protector absorb? Hundreds. So a thermal fuse disconnects protector parts as fast as possible. Leaving that surge current still connected to more robust appliances. A surge too tiny to damage appliances means protector parts must be disconnected as fast as possible to avert a fire.

Effective protectors have no filters. These superior protectors were recommend for use with X-10 Controllers and other devices that transmit higher frequencies on AC wires. Then signals were not subverted. These effective protectors remains undamaged after every surge - including direct lightning strikes. Some near zero protectors use filters to avert catastrophic failure (ie fire) due to surges also too tiny to cause appliance damage. Anybody can read specification numbers.

Filters protect near zero protector parts from catastrophic failure. Those filters found in near zero protectors to avert fire may also absorb higher frequency signals from a tracer. Effective and properly sized protectors do not need filters.

 

[Raymond810]

I'm brand new to this site and wish I had found it sooner. I have the same Klein Circuit Tracer Set and am glad to know that it won't work wherever I have a Surge Protected Multiple Outlet Strip. I know I'm going to love this site!!

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I'm brand new to this site and wish I had found it sooner. I have the same Klein Circuit Tracer Set and am glad to know that it won't work wherever I have a Surge Protected Multiple Outlet Strip. I know I'm going to love this site!!

Welcome aboard! There's always something to learn here on GJ, and don't be afraid to share your knowledge as well!

 

[farphle]

I learn something new everyday. I have a circuit tracer (not Klein) and never would have thought to plug it into a surge protector. I just mapped out my house and always plugged it directly into the receptacle in the wall.

 

[DC73]

. . . I have the same Klein Circuit Tracer Set and am glad to know that it won't work wherever I have a Surge Protected Multiple Outlet Strip. . . .

Welcome to Garage Journal. To clarify, the circuit tracer will still work with some surge protectors connected somewhere on the circuit. Only 1 brand (EFI) of my surge protectors actually interfered with the signal. The others (primarily Tripp Lite) were not a problem.

I learn something new everyday. I have a circuit tracer (not Klein) and never would have thought to plug it into a surge protector. I just mapped out my house and always plugged it directly into the receptacle in the wall.

To further clarify, the circuit tracer was not plugged into any surge protector. Just simply having the EFI brand surge protector plugged into another outlet on the same circuit was enough to block the signal.

Since my original post back in January, I've been told some other devices that have the right electronic filters inside including some remote controllers for lamps and appliances may also block the signals to the circuit tracer.

DC

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Plug a radio into the outlet and crank up the volume,that's how I mark circuits on panel change outs when I'm working alone.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I have one of the tracers, the one time I tried it, it didn't work for me. Maybe this is why it didn't work.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I use this tracer. Works great.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004MAJO2Y#Ask

 

[walrus]

I use this tracer. Works great.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004MAJO2Y#Ask

I have that same tracer branded greenlee. It works ok once used to it.

 

[sberry]

BTW, what went wrong with the switches and recepts?