Class 320 - 400A upgrade madness

[manoweb]

Last year I started a service upgrade from PG&E (Northern California). I am building a brand new detached garage. PG&E determined I had to place brand new conduits for them to run new conductors for the 400A service. I had to tear up the driveway and trench pretty deep; it was a monumental task. PG&E (not city!) inspectors were extremely strict, so much more than the city ones. Few months ago I finally passed all underground inspections, so now I just have to pick up a panel and they will connect the new service. Should be kid's play at this point but no - I came to realize there is a huge and unexpected shortage of everything that is class 320 - 400A. I visited all the distributors I have in town, even huge liquidators, and they all start laughing when I mention 400A; minimum wait time is 10 months to hope to get anything. On top of this, my area uses NEC2020 and that adds some uncertainties.
So far, I am still quite confused on what is my best bet. PG&E wants a "ringed", manual bypass panel. There are some overpriced models on Ebay but before I commit to buy, I need some clarity. Has anybody here done such upgrade recently or has any advice? Thanks.

 

[BillK]

I cant answer your question but I am just curious what you are doing that would possibly require a 400 amp service ? My machine shop business only has a 200 amp 3 phase panel.

 

[Ilikeike]

I'm on 8 months for a 400 amp pedestal mount panel. Commercial office.
PG&E wanted about that long before they would even get a crew to hook it up.
Luckily, I have another electric utility with infrastructure on the other side of the street, that will set two poles and hook it up within weeks of notice. (M.I.D.)


Cut n paste from the electrical supplier below...

• Please note: the schedule is subject to change due to the industry-wide supply chain constraints.

So sick of this post pandemic ****, they're just sandbagging keeping production low and the prices up, and working "remotely" sick of that overused term the last couple of years also.
go back to the damn office so I don't get passed to 5 different phone numbers and voicemails to order a part.

 

[Bert_]

Meter boxes are nearly a year out, it's not new news. This stuff should be ordered before you even started the work. Why did you wait so long?

Even before the pandemic I would try to order these types of things well in advance of starting work.

 

[Ilikeike]

Meter boxes are nearly a year out, it's not new news. This stuff should be ordered before you even started the work. Why did you wait so long?

Even before the pandemic I would try to order these types of things well in advance of starting work.

I’d be nice if we knew two years in advance of a project.

 

[Bert_]

I’d be nice if we knew two years in advance of a project.

2 years can be a little harder. 1 year really isn't hard.

Starting a project without even checking the availability of parts just doesn't make sense

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm on 8 months for a 400 amp pedestal mount panel. Commercial office.
PG&E wanted about that long before they would even get a crew to hook it up.
Luckily, I have another electric utility with infrastructure on the other side of the street, that will set two poles and hook it up within weeks of notice. (M.I.D.)


Cut n paste from the electrical supplier below...

• Please note: the schedule is subject to change due to the industry-wide supply chain constraints.

So sick of this post pandemic ****, they're just sandbagging keeping production low and the prices up, and working "remotely" sick of that overused term the last couple of years also.
go back to the damn office so I don't get passed to 5 different phone numbers and voicemails to order a part.

You must be in modesto. MID is my electric provider as well…

 

[Ilikeike]

You must be in modesto. MID is my electric provider as well…

Yep. We have both utilities across the street from each other.

 

[Ilikeike]

2 years can be a little harder. 1 year really isn't hard.

Starting a project without even checking the availability of parts just doesn't make sense

We started the project and got bids last Fall. Accepted bids November December
Parts were ordered soon after. Still waiting.

 

[mike93lx]

I cant answer your question but I am just curious what you are doing that would possibly require a 400 amp service ? My machine shop business only has a 200 amp 3 phase panel.

320a services are pretty common. Lots of houses going up with dual 200a panels. I bet nearly all 3500 sq ft+ new builds in cooling climates get them

 

[manoweb]

I cant answer your question but I am just curious what you are doing that would possibly require a 400 amp service ? My machine shop business only has a 200 amp 3 phase panel.

Hello, fair question. I am building a shop but I also have the house on it. These days even houses are getting all electric appliances. Milling machines and compressors do not really need that much juice but welders and plasma take more. The way PG&E makes calculations to determine what service is necessary consists in adding all the loads and de-rating by some number, I did not fit into 200A and the next step is 400.
This said, my buddy has a 1000A service at his shop, and he works alone...

 

[manoweb]

So sick of this post pandemic ****, they're just sandbagging keeping production low and the prices up, and working "remotely" sick of that overused term the last couple of years also.
go back to the damn office so I don't get passed to 5 different phone numbers and voicemails to order a part.

The way it was told me is not really much about the pandemic, but the new government. Unlike the predecessors, this administration is imposing electric-only developments especially in my area. Thousands of new homes, all electric (gas is literally not an option) and they have to put in 400A panels in order to run everything. The distributors prioritize the big guys, and are reluctant in increasing supply because it might be a bubble. 200A and lower, everything seems to be in stock. That's the way I was told, merely reporting it.

 

[manoweb]

Meter boxes are nearly a year out, it's not new news. This stuff should be ordered before you even started the work. Why did you wait so long?

Because I am just a dude building his own garage, and I was naive, nobody told me. The service upgrade is something that came out during the process and I didn't plan for it. I did not plan to tear up 130ft of driveway to lay a 3in conduit 36in below the surface. In my ignorance I thought I'd go down to the same distributor where I sourced all the conduits and just get a panel same day. They literally laughed at me

 

[Cruzan80]

The way it was told me is not really much about the pandemic, but the new government. Unlike the predecessors, this administration is imposing electric-only developments especially in my area. Thousands of new homes, all electric (gas is literally not an option) and they have to put in 400A panels in order to run everything. The distributors prioritize the big guys, and are reluctant in increasing supply because it might be a bubble. 200A and lower, everything seems to be in stock. That's the way I was told, merely reporting it.

Sorry, but no. Our house had electric baseboard heating, and still has electric range/oven, well pump, washer/dryer, etc. No natural gas or propane in the house at all. I can run the mill, compressor, cabinet saw, shop heater, etc with no issue.

All on a 200A service. So you don't NEED 400A to run everything, that is just what they are telling you to install.

 

[manoweb]

Sorry, but no. Our house had electric baseboard heating, and still has electric range/oven, well pump, washer/dryer, etc. No natural gas or propane in the house at all. I can run the mill, compressor, cabinet saw, shop heater, etc with no issue.

All on a 200A service. So you don't NEED 400A to run everything, that is just what they are telling you to install.

I'm happy it's working for you. These new developments all have class320/400A service, and it's probably exactly how you say, it's regulations and government mandates.

 

[lund]

Loads under the CA electrical mandates can be quite high. If you have 2 cars charging, that can approach 100 A right there. Then add in electric water heater (30A), heat pump/AC (~50A), range (50A), hot tub ... hey it's cali (50A), and the balance of house with many electric toys (~70 A) and we are up to 350 A.

Granted, most of these will not peak at the same time ... but it does add up under concievable simultaneous load situations.

At risk of going political here: I wonder if the Cali politicians even spoke to any power engineers and economists on the present electric system capacity and how much it will cost and the time needed to go up 2x or 3x of present generation and distribution capacity. I lived in Cali for years. It is a great place to live, but my observation is that many people there can be wildly impractical thinking their high life style is easily accommodated with no negative impacts. Solar on every house might drop peak load on a hot day, but still the capacity needed will not add up and the cost will be super high. I do not think you want high battery capacity sitting in every home from safety and environmental standpoints. One can legislate, but can it really be done without impossible cost and impact ? I doubt that they can rebuild large scale infrastructures so fully in a decade.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yep. We have both utilities across the street from each other.

must be on the east side...

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

delete

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

There are some available online. Prices are insane though. Some serious gouging going on.

Google Search

 

[gsmith22]

There are some available online. Prices are insane though. Some serious gouging going on.

Google Search

had a 400A (320class) meter pan (believe its millbank) and 400A main breaker (Eaton) installed in fall 2019 for a 200A to 400A service upgrade on my residence. So this is way before pandemic and way way before inflation/corporate price gouging. Those prices you linked are more but not much more than what I paid at that time. No one carried the components and electrical contractor had to order them but we did get them in several weeks (so not situation OP describes). Face it, 400A components for residential are expensive because it isn't as ubiquitous as 200A. The only reason I needed the upgrade (per the NEC load calc) was the installation of electric resistance heat as a backup to my new heat pumps and I have an all electric house otherwise. I have used the elec resistance heat precisely one time when it was installed to test it.

The NEC load calc is insanely conservative. Reasonable use scenarious simply don't exist within it. Any reasonable use scenario I came up with was easily done with 200A but my electrical subcode official refused to deviate from the specific NEC procedure. I get why, but if there is a bone to pick anywhere, its probably with that NEC load calc forcing lots of stuff to be On in my house simultaneously that would never happen in reailty. My PoCo laughed at me too when I suggested that they needed to upgrade the wire coming from my transformer to my meter for the potential additional use - "we will give you the 320 class meter but you will never pull that" was the response. I probably should put a CT on the service and see what I get - I'm guessing its 80A or less 99% of the time.

 

[Ilikeike]

must be on the east side...

NE Stan county.
Right near the Stanislaus river.
The furthest point North MID has is on our property in SJ county.

 

[manoweb]

At risk of going political here: I wonder if the Cali politicians even spoke to any power engineers and economists on the present electric system
[...]
One can legislate, but can it really be done without impossible cost and impact ? I doubt that they can rebuild large scale infrastructures so fully in a decade.

No, it's absolutely clear people in charge, especially around here, have absolutely no idea of the physics that govern energy and power.


However, the electric supply house called me today and they had a 400A panel for me at nominal price. I thought they were joking but they really had it. I went down within the hour to make sure and it's now sitting in my garage. Now I have to schedule the PG&E inspection that will likely be in a month or so.

Maybe the supply issues are coming to an end due to the recession?

 

[gsmith22]

No, it's absolutely clear people in charge, especially around here, have absolutely no idea of the physics that govern energy and power.


However, the electric supply house called me today and they had a 400A panel for me at nominal price. I thought they were joking but they really had it. I went down within the hour to make sure and it's now sitting in my garage. Now I have to schedule the PG&E inspection that will likely be in a month or so.

Maybe the supply issues are coming to an end due to the recession?

Good to hear about the equipment.

see my note above about the NEC load calc. you have to install that 400A service specifically because of the NEC load calc - its not CA or any of the other favorite boogymen. CA is using a version of the NEC and the NEC mandates how the load calc is done for your house. the calc requires you to assume in addition to lighting, kitchen, laundry, and some other specfic stuff, that heavy draw items (like EV cars, hot water heater, oven, range, and a/c, motors, pool pump, etc.) are all on at the same time and NEC only lets you take 75% of max amps for each of these all at the same time. its crazy and simply won't happen. Which was my point above because the power company (who definately knows what you use) laughed at upping my transformer and lines to the meter for the additional draw going from 200A service I had before to the new 400A service. ie there is was no additional draw regardless of what the NEC load calc said.

I suspect NEC hasn't had grief from their calc procedure because most houses aren't all electric. the future will look different from the past and I wouldn't be surprised if a new and improved load calc with alot more reduction for multiple heavy draw items gets incorporated as more people find themselves fictiuosly above the 200A service limit

 

[sparky 1971]

I and another contractor friend have installed three 400 amp single phase services in the last year, one of them required about a five month wait for the meter main. The other two were last minute jobs. Those both got 320 amp meter sockets, one had an outdoor 200 amp main breaker panel with feed through lugs mounted on each side of it, the other had outdoor 200 amp fused disconnects mounted on either side. The customers didn't like paying for the latter two, but didn't want to wait either.

 

[lund]

I'm happy it's working for you. These new developments all have class320/400A service, and it's probably exactly how you say, it's regulations and government mandates.

Sorry, but no. Our house had electric baseboard heating, and still has electric range/oven, well pump, washer/dryer, etc. No natural gas or propane in the house at all. I can run the mill, compressor, cabinet saw, shop heater, etc with no issue.

All on a 200A service. So you don't NEED 400A to run everything, that is just what they are telling you to install.

Well ... remember the mandates in Cali drive provisions for electric cars. At night when plugged in both will draw 50 A each for a long time while recharging. On 200A, that leaves the balance of 100A for baseboard heating and water heating, oven, well pump that can easily be on at the same time on top of transient loads. You would need to be lucky or have very low heating to avoid trips.

If they are really serious about electric cars it changes the situation strongly. I doubt there is consistent generation and transmission capacity.

 

[mike93lx]

Well ... remember the mandates in Cali drive provisions for electric cars. At night when plugged in both will draw 50 A each for a long time while recharging. On 200A, that leaves the balance of 100A for baseboard heating and water heating, oven, well pump that can easily be on at the same time on top of transient loads. You would need to be lucky or have very low heating to avoid trips.

If they are really serious about electric cars it changes the situation strongly. I doubt there is consistent generation and transmission capacity.

EV's don't need to pull 50a almost ever. Using that argument is creating a problem that just doesnt exist. If you are limited on electrical capacity, you just adjust charge rate. It's a non issue

 

[Cruzan80]

Quick Google search shows that @ 48A 240V, you are getting roughly 40mph charging. So even if both of you do 160mi daily, that is 8hrs of charging total. Easy enough to schedule one then the other while you sleep if needed.

 

[reader2580]

How many homeowners have ever tripped their 200 amp main breaker due to overload?

 

[mike93lx]

How many homeowners have ever tripped their 200 amp main breaker due to overload?

Apparently it will be everyone once we all get ev's. Then the world will end

 

[lund]

Quick Google search shows that @ 48A 240V, you are getting roughly 40mph charging. So even if both of you do 160mi daily, that is 8hrs of charging total. Easy enough to schedule one then the other while you sleep if needed.

It is a good point. The peak load @ 4 hours each car (assuming 2) is fairly long to overlap with other high uses. But if one were to network the two chargers (no big deal these days with wifi networks ... most everyone has and I suspect you can get network controlled chargers) and monitor other big loads, once could move things around over the relevant windows to reduce peak load. Additionally, a lot of people now have time of day varying rates, so that could be taken into account also in the overall optimization. All this being said, people tend to be lazy and just turn things on so to some degree Murphy's Law will hit and some mains may trip now and then. But I guess if that happens the people will be more motivated to sort it out vs rewiring the house. Computer software usually has only a limited window where it is maintained though and the chargers are likely something you do not want to be junked after 10 years. So hopefully the software can be modular and maintainable ... err ... with consumer stuff ... right?!?!

All this stuff is not quite as simple as some make out to be long range. Bottom line is also CA and other areas will need a LOT more electrical generation and storage capacity and that does not come so cheap as many people consider. The attitude seems to be that it will magically appear and others will pay.

 

[Cruzan80]

It is a good point. The peak load @ 4 hours each car (assuming 2) is fairly long to overlap with other high uses.

I also deliberately chose a very high mileage. Two cars, each with a 80mi one-way trip is much larger than the average. My guess is the average is a third of that.

 

[Max]

I also deliberately chose a very high mileage. Two cars, each with a 80mi one-way trip is much larger than the average. My guess is the average is a third of that.

Most of the US commute data is based on time, not distance. Which makes sense as some people will walk, take the bus, take the metro, drive, etc. But this site also has the distance:

15+ Average Commute Time Statistics [2026]: How Long Is the Average American Commute? - Zippia

Whether you live in the middle of the city or have to drive in from the country, almost all Americans have to deal with some form of commute.

www.zippia.com

The average one-way commute for Americans is 27.6 minutes.

The average American commutes 41 miles a day to and from work.

So it looks like ~80 miles round trip a day. (Maybe 40 as their sentence is not worded clearly.) I have no idea how skewed that data is by people biking in 5 miles vs. people taking a train for 100 miles vs people driving...

To me, if your state has mandated that your future car will be an EV, and all heating/cooling will be electric, then the average household electrical consumption per household will go up significantly. Obviously people will need to be smart about charging times, etc. But there will also be households with 4 or 5 cars being driven every day as well, unless we're going to outlaw teenagers and college students that commute, and/or multi-family households...

 

[Cruzan80]

Glad to know I wasn't too far off. Was debating between half and third (figured 30 or 40 avg as a max for a car, and that was one way in my example).

40mi roundtrip would be an hr of 48A charging per car, roughly.

 

[Metal-Marc]

Time to move to Texas?