clay caves

[BurtEggley]

the house next door was flipped recently. The flipper dug under my driveway without my permission and left a 2' x 2' cave in the clay about 2' below the edge of the concrete driveway to get to the underground POCO electrical supply. They filled the top when done to make it look filled, but not the cave. They also dug under a couple 8' tall trees on my property alongside the driveway, and left a cave under at least one, maybe 18" tall by 18" wide and two to four feet long like a tunnel under the trees. Real asses, if I can say that online. The city signed off on it, and blamed it on the POCO, the POCO blamed the city for signing off on it. The flipper said they both gave him permission to come onto my property and dig, leaving me with a choice of suing him in small claims to pay for damages. They both denied giving him permission, just leaving me with the mess. Just want to fill the caves so they don't collapse someday, collapse the driveway or kill the trees. I was thinking of using a garden hose with a brass nozzle to wash the surface clay down into the holes, and keep adding dirt over and over until the under dug areas are filled with dirt and mud. I know it is still a one to two foot tall cave under the surface dirt about 18" to 24" down because I used a fiberglass rod to probe it. Once it gets about 18" - 24" down there is no resistance for another foot to 24" more. There are electrical lines in the easement and that is why I used fiberglass wands to probe. Normally the POCO would do the digging for the upgraded electrical they put in, and properly backfill it but the a_hole flipper was in such a hurry they didn't want to wait so they just came onto my property one day and dug without permission to speed things up. We were gone for the day and came home to the mess. I will admit that if my car brakes failed while the flipper was crossing the street, it would be a real shame. I don't want to burden the new buyers with the problem, when they find all the **** the flipper didn't do to code that the city signed off on anyway, (I suspect money under the table to the inspector) they will probably lose the house trying to fix all the problems. I exhausted the discussion with the city before they signed off and they basically said sue the flipper, then they signed off on the mess anyway, telling me the POCO told them it was Ok, POCO said the city told them it was Ok. Isn't worth suing all three of them.

Any other ideas than the brass nozzle or pressure washer, washing dirt and mud down into the holes until no more will fit in?

 

[f121]

Backfill with concrete.

 

[RoninB4]

-I'm not a source for legal advice but I wouldn't want to do anything to it because @BurtEggley will then be responsible for it. That would include anything in the future like access to the wiring (concrete excavation). As distasteful as it sounds I'd want to talk with a lawyer about a property lien. Just making the flipper aware of a property lien could kill the sale and force him/her to do something about it that the OP won't be responsible for. Seems like a pretty clear case of trespass on your property regardless of who signed off on it IF all work was done by a private individual, if POCO or the city did anything then it's a bigger problem (but should have documentation). The denial sounds like POCO and the city are both willing to throw the flipper under the bus anyway. Lawyer will know either the difficulty or potential settlement of taking on city hall. The OP should act quickly before house is under contract. Que Jackie Chiles

✂️ I've Been Wanting a Piece of Them for Years!

6 seconds · Clipped by NET 7 · Original video "Jackie Chiles perfect attorney" by John Dillinger

www.youtube.com

 

[OneEyedMan]

I don’t know that you can get enough material to stay by washing it in. Possibly make a slurry that will pour with some sand, use a plywood barrier at the mouth of the cave to prevent all of it flowing out and try to ad material until full then let dry.

Not a good situation to be in. Sounds like the flipper needs their thumbs removed.

 

[zimman]

Inaction is commonly know as permission.
Zim

 

[Joe Reed]

Is this within the POCO's easement?

 

[willymakeit]

Do the lein
If not use flowable fill from concrete co.

 

[LOW1]

My totally unqualified thought is that any soil you force into the cave would settle to the point where it would be useless in supporting what is above it.

Was the flipper wanting to replace his old overhead service with a new buried service?

I would check to see if your neighbor or the POCO has an easement allowing for buried lines and with an underground contractor for how best to support the roof of the cave. You also may want to make sure that the buried connection won’t screw up your own power. Aren’t those connections supposed to be in an appropriate box?

 

[y'sguy]

foam injection.

it ain't right what they did!

 

[PCustoms]

Is this within the POCO's easement?

Key question right here.

If underground utilities go across the OP property to the neighbors, I'm assuming the answer is "yes"

 

[tarmy]

Key question right here.

If underground utilities go across the OP property to the neighbors, I'm assuming the answer is "yes"

And if this is the case get a copy of that easements language. There is usually a provision to “restore” property and improvements to that property disrupted by the work.

I can’t believe that there is no Christy box or some type of protection for those power lines with that little of cover.

And…the assholes who did this work should have discussed the work scope before they entered private property even if there is/was an easement.

 

[PCustoms]

And…the assholes who did this work should have discussed the work scope before they entered private property even if there is/was an easement.

Should have...

Somewhere I've posted about the pole replacement debacle I went thru last winter/spring. Long story short the crew wasn't pleasant at all, and the regional rep got involved. I ended up filling the holes and regrading myself, eventually they delivered "topsoil" for me to re-seed (with my seeds)

 

[BurtEggley]

Regardless, I will end up responsible to fix it. The POCO told me that because they did not do or authorize the work they will not accept responsibility. I can wait until the ground collapses and then report it, or I can fix it. It will be a $10,000 or more bill if I take it legal action.

 

[BurtEggley]

I guess there is more to think thru on liability if I fix it myself. Maybe the POCO can offer advise on how they want it fixed up. They signed off on the current mess even though I told them about the caves under everything.

My guess is that if I just wait until the area sinks then the POCO would be responsible to fix the damage. However their position, and that of the city building dept is that if I have a problem it is up to me to fix it and then sue them because it is on my property. The flippers position was that the POCO and City gave him permission to dig. He lies. The fact is the damage was done without my knowledge or permission because I was 50 miles away the day they did it. I came home to find the damage. The other half told them to cease and desist, and get off the property but they ignored her. She called me to tell me what they had done when she discovered it, but not before it happened unfortunately or I would have had her call the police to throw them off the property until they provided insurance and a bond.

The cost of suing the people who did the damage is a lot more in legal costs than the cost to add some sand and dirt into the caves. It may take years for it to compact on its own, but I would have to dig up a tree to properly compact one part of the area. The new box the POCO set is about 3" from the concrete that is undercut. There is only room really to compact it with the **** end of a 2 x 4, unless I cut the concrete over the area, which is another solution. We plan to leave California when the other half retires in a year or two, otherwise we would just upgrade the electrical service from 100 amp to 200 amp, compact the area and pour a new driveway. The POCO added the upgraded connectors already for 200 amp while they were in the new box. But to put in a 200 amp service will require thousands of dollars I just can't afford right now, especially if I sell in a year or two.

I was thinking about using water to collapse the areas then ask the POCO how they want to fix it. Let them deal with the flipper since the POCO signed off on the work. Maybe follow advise here and consult my attorney first.

 

[58Yeoman]

That's the kind of thing that really p*sses me off. No one takes responsibility for what they've done. I'd be tempted to dig a small hole and dump liquid concrete in there until it's completely filled, then when the neighbor has problems with their electrics, say the previous owner did that and left. Prove otherwise.

We had the worst phone company in the US until spring of last year. Every time we'd call with an internet outage, it was always the wiring in OUR house that was the problem, or there was no outage in our area. It was never the wiring in our house, and it was always an outage in our area. They had sent me a new modem before we dumped them, but it didn't work, so they sent me another and I returned the non working one. After we dumped them, I never returned the new one, and they never asked for it. I think I'll use it for target practice this spring. Oh, and they kept telling us that we owed them $34+, for months after we stopped service. My wife kept telling them it was the other way around. They finally got it through their thick skulls that we were right and sent us a check.

That's what this country has become lately; it's always your fault/your problem, not theirs. It feels good when you can stick it back to them. A few years ago, we put up a small plastic shed to house some outdoor equipment. Our property taxes went up $15 a year. We asked at the courthouse why. They replied we put up a shed. I said it wasn't permanent. They said remove it and they'll remove the tax. Yeah, right. Fast forward to last year. The VA rated me at 100% disabled, which lowered my property taxes from almost $4000 a year to less than $1000. Enjoying that $15 raise now?

 

[bluedog225]

I’m not your lawyer. People underestimate the power and majesty of an old-fashioned certified letter. The mayor, the chairman of the board of the power company, regional directors, city chief inspector, anyone else involved but send it to the top dog in the organization, cc a lawyer. Describe in detail what has happened. Spend the 10 or 20 bucks to get return receipt.

Letters like that get handed off to an assistant with instructions to deal with it.

Emails and texts are ethereal. People have to deal with a piece of paper. Particularly when you can prove they got it. And judges love return receipts. Cause they’re old. And the old stuff was often better.

If it did get filled in with concrete, it would be interesting if whoever did that paid cash so they couldn’t be blamed later.

 

[BurtEggley]

Thank you.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Small claims court generally doesn't require a lawyer so it shouldn't cost you anything more than a filing fee.

 

[carlaisle]

Maybe your local media might be interested in shining a spotlight on this fiasco? Sometimes publicity can motivate all kinds of people to take action they would otherwise never undertake.

 

[BurtEggley]

Thank you. Thinking about it, I just sent an e-mail with some photos and the situation to my attorney for his advice. Most likely he will want a meeting to discuss it, and that costs $$.

 

[PoorUB]

And…the assholes who did this work should have discussed the work scope before they entered private property even if there is/was an easement.

In most places, if there is an easement, they don't have to ask. You can not stop them.

 

[LOW1]

Most states have a Utilities Commision which regulates power companies. The ones I am familiar with also have a consumer complaint department. If they have one it should not cost anything to file a complaint.

 

[BurtEggley]

In most places, if there is an easement, they don't have to ask. You can not stop them.

An easement gives the utility permission to access their equipment on your property. It does not give the general public permission to access the equipment - it does not create a public right of way. The utility stated they did not give the flipper permission to do the digging, they told him he had to work with me on that. He did not do that.

 

[BurtEggley]

Most states have a Utilities Commision which regulates power companies. The ones I am familiar with also have a consumer complaint department. If they have one it should not cost anything to file a complaint.

good point. At worst it might get the POCO back out here to finish the job. I'll pass that to my attorney after he advises me. Maybe a letter from him might motivate them. I believe that the job was not finished in a safe and professional manner. (Of course so much **** goes on these days like that it is impossible to keep up with it. Stuff that was not Ok 10 years ago is perfectly Ok today. Look at the problems the auto manufacturers are having with engines and transmissions. Someone had to sign off on those plans. "

 

[PoorUB]

An easement gives the utility permission to access their equipment on your property. It does not give the general public permission to access the equipment - it does not create a public right of way. The utility stated they did not give the flipper permission to do the digging, they told him he had to work with me on that. He did not do that.

Your original story seems vague to who dug the holes.

 

[BurtEggley]

Your original story seems vague to who dug the holes.

the flipper and his crew dug. The POCO said to me that they usually dig for free but the flipper wanted it done sooner than the 7 - 10 days they were out on those crews. The POCO said to me that they rarely get owners who want to dig the power up themselves, and they advised him to contact me before he came onto my property to dig. He said to me that they told him he had permission to do it without asking me. I was gone the day it happened. I confronted both parties at the same time and the POCO again told him that he should have waited for my permission, like they told me they told him, then they told me that they couldn't do anything because he dug the hole, not them so he was responsible to fill it. Basically they washed their hands of it. My other half told the flipper to wait until I came home that afternoon, and he said he would then the minute her back was turned he dug anyway. I came home to a hole. The city deferred to the POCO and signed off on it when filled even though I lodged a complaint with the head of the city dept that it was unacceptable substandard work with big holes underneath that had not been filled. That head of the building dept told me he would require a soil compaction report before they signed off, but his inspector signed off behind closed doors without it. City will always protect the city even if they are wrong. That is how government is.

 

[tarmy]

In most places, if there is an easement, they don't have to ask. You can not stop them.

I agree…but. It depends on who the beneficiaries are and what the language allows. If the Poco deferred their right for the work to a sub….then they would usually have rules for those implementing their right upon private property. I have represented many property where **** like this happens.

 

[BurtEggley]

that is the point. The POCO says they did not defer their right. They did not give anyone permission to dig on my property.

 

[PCustoms]

that is the point. The POCO says they did not defer their right. They did not give anyone permission to dig on my property.

But they approved it after the fact, so they need to assist in correcting. More then likely this is spelled out very clearly in your easement

 

[BurtEggley]

Easement doc is in front of me. It gives right of easement to utilities for installation and maintenance, and designates the 12.5 westerly feet as a public utility easement, and tree easement (even though no trees were ever planted over the area by the city etc..) I imagine ingress and egress is implied to those entities. It does not specify either or any other parties.

Yes, the POCO should help help solve this but they were unwilling to make any suggestion other than tell me to take it up in court with him. Yes, they should have said we agree or disagree that it is a problem, and here is how it should be dealt with if it is a problem. Their lines under it are those that could be compromised by a gravel truck sliding into that box if that area collapses. During his excavation, there were a bunch of torn phone cables when he got done digging, and I called the telephone company to look at them because he couldn't give a hoot, mostly because no one has phones that would have died when he tore into the wire bundle with shovels - although some people nearby use them for inexpensive DSL. Six or eight blocks of the neighborhood phones and electrical service come thru that box. The phone company came out, looked at the wires, and removed them. Said fortunately he hit a bundle that were abandoned when they upgraded 10 years ago in the area, so they led nowhere but were left in the ground rather than ripping them out. Said if they were the contractor and did that damage, they might have hidden from it too if those lines had been other than abandoned. The flipper was totally not professional. I watched his workers, some in flip flops and cheap shoes, Home Depot parking lot hires, dig in wet soil around a live 100 amp electrical service to his house, using shovels with metal handles, skimming mud off the electrical cables to expose them. He was lucky no one got electrocuted. I've been here when the POCO had to service those wires and they didn't let anyone in there without proper insulated gloves and boots on. Electricity has no emotions or motivation to "give 'em another chance" when a mistake is made. Back in the 1980s the son of my next door neighbor in Ontario was painting a super high tension line concrete tower with a long aluminum pole the contractor gave him. He went to dip the roller and the other end got too close to the lines. It flashed. He had burns over most of his body, was lucky to live, lost a lot of flesh and had serious permanent damage to the muscles on one side for the rest of his life. He was in the hospital for months. The tower was like those you see coming into cities from major power sources.

 

[tarmy]

You could cut the wires and see who shows up

That power belongs to somebody…and the safe cover it is required by somebody…cause if a kids gets electrocuted there will be a lawsuit with everybody’s name on it. Sorta unbelievable OP…I think I vote for some sack concrete to fill it, apply water…and forget about it.

 

[BillK]

I will stay out of the "who is responsible" discussion.

When I saw your post I was envisioning a cave the size of my garage lol. It looks and sounds like a couple of wheelbarrows of clean fill dirt or top soil should fill it in just fine if you decide to do it yourself. I really dont see the issue as far as that part goes. Thats what they dugout, put the same thing back in.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Those pics are too close up to tell how big of an issue filling the holes will be. Sure would be a shame if the wires somehow got damaged while this is getting corrected.

 

[BurtEggley]

You could cut the wires and see who shows up

That power belongs to somebody…and the safe cover it is required by somebody…cause if a kids gets electrocuted there will be a lawsuit with everybody’s name on it. Sorta unbelievable OP…I think I vote for some sack concrete to fill it, apply water…and forget about it.

The POCO originally told me they wanted him to put broken rock then dirt into it, which he did not do. But then they ignored that requirement when they inspected it. Made him do it on his side but not mine. Same kind of **** for the roof next door. Everyone else in the neighborhood is required to add 1/2" sheet over the original 7/16" original roof sheeting when they reroof. It is in the city code book. They let him skate on that too. Let him leave rotted wood in the roof line and facia. I feel sorry for the new owners when all these things pile up on them.

And yes, if someone gets hurt on my watch it will get the POCO and city attention. My concern is not today. It is three to five years from now when a gravel truck backs up my driveway 6" from the edge with a load of DG, gravel, soil, and compost etc., and the rear tires on that side collapse into the undercut area, and then drop into the box on top of the electrical riser. I am also concerned about my crape myrtle that is undercut in that area. My initial thought was to let water wash the dirt down into the voids, and the call the POCO to come fix it. But I do agree that I could be liable if that causes any problems. They can always say you should have left it alone.

In answer - lousy photos due to shade. I would guess that one void next to the box is 18" x 18" square with 3" of concrete and 3" of clay on top of it, and the one under the tree and shrub is three or more feet back under them, 18" wide and 12" tall, with 18" of soil over them. It may go back three or more feet under the whole area where the power runs around the block. I was not here when they did that work so I have no idea what is back under there or how far it goes. If the a_hole had contacted me before he dug, I would have gotten my landscaper crew out to burlap the crape myrtle and give him access down into to that area. There are also water lines in that area that come in. The best fix for the driveway is to cut the concrete out about 24" x 24" next to the box, then fill under it and compact that area, then pour a new piece on it. The best fix for the crape myrtle is to dig the shrub next to it out, then fill, compact and replant. But then I would be digging in the POCO easement down to the level of their conduit and cables so what if something goes wrong. My landscaper could do that for $500 or so, although most of his long time workers have gotten out of California and headed to places like Arizona, Nevada, and Texas. He pretty much is alone these days, and in his 60's now. I am 75 and just too damned old to be screwing with these things. I hire people to do them right and those people are retiring out.

 

[PCustoms]

Sounds like this is about more then the wire....

Bringing up the "Home Depot parking lot hires" was a nice touch, pretty sure we all knew what you meant.

 

[BurtEggley]

Sounds like this is about more then the wire....

Bringing up the "Home Depot parking lot hires" was a nice touch, pretty sure we all knew what you meant.

Might be mistaken that is what I meant because I love all people. Spent years growing up in Puerto Rico, and am part native American in ancestry too. One great grandmom was half Cherokee and another was Choctaw. I am just concerned when someone takes advantage of an unskilled worker because they are willing to work for a little cash, and that puts them into a situation they could be electrocuted. The contractor was supposed to supervise the work and make sure everyone was safe, and the work done properly.

 

[BurtEggley]

Sounds like this is about more then the wire....

Bringing up the "Home Depot parking lot hires" was a nice touch, pretty sure we all knew what you meant.

Might be mistaken about what I meant because I love all people. Spent years growing up in Puerto Rico, and am part native American in ancestry too. One great grandmom was half Cherokee and another was Choctaw. I am just concerned when someone takes advantage of an unskilled worker because they are willing to work for a little cash, and that puts them into a situation they could be electrocuted. The contractor was supposed to supervise the work and make sure everyone was safe, and the work done properly.

 

[PCustoms]

Might be mistaken about what I meant

Might have been, apologies

 

[BurtEggley]

Thanks. Have a great day.

 

[dcg9381]

Isn't worth suing all three of them.

Rarely worth it to sue the city.
Did the flipper actually decline to fix this?

I'd do this:
1) Send a written "registered mail" demand letter to the flipper. Request that the issue be resolved by X date.

2) If there is a listing Realtor, send a registered letter to the Realtor indicating that there is an issue caused by the "current owner" associated with construction on this home and if not resolved by [X date] you intend to litigate. Realtor will be required to disclose and won't want this to hold up the sale.

It's an initial bluff.. Frankly.

If you were going to sue, this is a small claims issue, but you've got to figure out "damages" via having it fixed or fixing it yourself (damages would be less documented). Small claims would be the way to go.

I'm surprised on one has said something, but that's a "damp area" - I can't tell the wire types, but I doubt that will pass code unless put in conduit. And those seem to be major power wires....