Cleaning up spaghetti

[e462001]

The PO left the panel for the house/garage in a bit of a mess.

This is the only panel for the house with the mains coming in from the right of the box.

I started by putting in a plywood panel above the mess and started anchoring the wires down however I'm worried that I may not be thinking far enough ahead to be doing that yet. The wiring currently runs (drapes) below the rafters, so if I was going to bore holes to run the cables through I'd need to disconnect them either at the box or the other end to run them through the joists back to the box from where they go up through the floor which would mean having to undo the fasteners I started putting in.

The other option I can think of is to box in the wiring along with the ducting that runs across the top of the picture. I plan on framing in and finishing the wall at some point in the future.

Thoughts on those two options or other alternatives. Also the box itself looks pretty crappy to me but I've never wired in a box before so maybe thats as good as it gets?

Any advice/thoughts are welcome. I have very little experience with electricity prior to this on AC (mostly just car wiring) but always looking to learn new things.

 

[pmilin]

Wow. What a mess. This is unbelievable to me. This wiring is for the house as well as the garage? How did this ever pass code when the house was built?

If you try to re-route the wire through the joints they will likely become too short to reach the box won't they? Is the complete wire path exposed to where you could run a new wire if necessary? Maybe moving the box up is an option as long as the power feed wire is long enough. In any case you have to get those wires secured. Draping around like that is not good.

Also looks like there is a mismatched breaker in the box.

 

[Steevo]

The PO left the panel for the house/garage in a bit of a mess. . . . .

You, sir, are a master of understatement.

 

[RECox286]

No joking around here:

Neatness only counts in surveying. I've seen

plenty of what electricians leave on a job, calling

it "done" and let me tell you that your panel is almost

pristine to some I've looked at. If it bothers you that

much, then straighten it up to your liking. It won't

make it work any better than it does in its' present

condition, but, at least you will feel better.

Uncle Bob

 

[e462001]

Wow. What a mess. This is unbelievable to me. This wiring is for the house as well as the garage? How did this ever pass code when the house was built?

If you try to re-route the wire through the joints they will likely become too short to reach the box won't they? Is the complete wire path exposed to where you could run a new wire if necessary? Maybe moving the box up is an option as long as the power feed wire is long enough. In any case you have to get those wires secured. Draping around like that is not good.

Also looks like there is a mismatched breaker in the box.

Mismatched breaker? You mean the top one on the left side? I just noticed that now. Another gift from the PO I guess.

A lot of the wire is draping up to 2 feet from the ceiling. The wire path is exposed until it goes up into the ceiling and enters the main house.

Wire length is one reason I considered boxing in the duct with the wires, then I can staple the wires to the bottom of the joists since nothing will be attached to them at that point.

This is the box for house and garage as the garage is the basement of the house.

You, sir, are a master of understatement.

Hah well I'm not a master electrician so I choose to show my other skills in this case.

 

[e462001]

No joking around here:

Neatness only counts in surveying. I've seen

plenty of what electricians leave on a job, calling

it "done" and let me tell you that your panel is almost

pristine to some I've looked at. If it bothers you that

much, then straighten it up to your liking. It won't

make it work any better than it does in its' present

condition, but, at least you will feel better.

Uncle Bob

Good point, the draping wires will be cleaned up no matter what. I was more concerned if there was any potential for bad things to happen with the interior of the box that way.

 

[sberry]

Mine wont win any neatness awards, I am bad and never post a pic with a cover off,,, ha

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The Sq D breaker needs to be changed to the correct model of pressumably GE brand(if indeed the panel is GE jusgin by the rest of the breakers

I see the incoming feed is 4-wire but the neutral and ground bars are tied together. Before this panel, is there a disconnect or just a meter? If just a meter the feed should be 3-wire and if there is a disconnect, then it should be 4-wire as it is and the tie between the 2 bars NEEDS to be removed!

The wire needs to be secured within 12" of the box(Romex connector/clamp are already there) and at 4 1/2' intervals.

Nothin bad will happen with the panel that messy. However, its a pain to work on and troubleshoot when its that way. When i get hired to clean a mess up like that, its easier to label everything and then take all wires out and start from scratch. I tell the customer i need half a day to cut in a panel and clean it up so they would be without power for that long. Some are ok with it and others dont want to be burdened and cant stand being with no TV or xBox for that short amount of time so they pass. If it were my panel i would clean it up!

U think that panels bad? Try cleaning up a commercial panel in say an old McDonalds. WHAT A FRICKING MESS.

 

[e462001]

The Sq D breaker needs to be changed to the correct model of pressumably GE brand(if indeed the panel is GE jusgin by the rest of the breakers

I see the incoming feed is 4-wire but the neutral and ground bars are tied together. Before this panel, is there a disconnect or just a meter? If just a meter the feed should be 3-wire and if there is a disconnect, then it should be 4-wire as it is and the tie between the 2 bars NEEDS to be removed!

The wire needs to be secured within 12" of the box(Romex connector/clamp are already there) and at 4 1/2' intervals.

Nothin bad will happen with the panel that messy. However, its a pain to work on and troubleshoot when its that way. When i get hired to clean a mess up like that, its easier to label everything and then take all wires out and start from scratch. I tell the customer i need half a day to cut in a panel and clean it up so they would be without power for that long. Some are ok with it and others dont want to be burdened and cant stand being with no TV or xBox for that short amount of time so they pass. If it were my panel i would clean it up!

U think that panels bad? Try cleaning up a commercial panel in say an old McDonalds. WHAT A FRICKING MESS.

I think I have a spare breaker that will fit the bill but if not I'll pick one up tomorrow. The only thing I see upstream of the box is the meter but I could be missing something as I don't know what I'm looking for.

I see three shielded wires and one bare wire coming in from outside. Does that count as four? My question is based off wiring being labeled as 12-3 and such. What is the difference between three wire and four wire anyways?

What do you mean by cut in a new box?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The Sq D breaker needs to be changed to the correct model of pressumably GE brand(if indeed the panel is GE jusgin by the rest of the breakers

I see the incoming feed is 4-wire but the neutral and ground bars are tied together. Before this panel, is there a disconnect or just a meter? If just a meter the feed should be 3-wire and if there is a disconnect, then it should be 4-wire as it is and the tie between the 2 bars NEEDS to be removed!

The wire needs to be secured within 12" of the box(Romex connector/clamp are already there) and at 4 1/2' intervals.

Nothin bad will happen with the panel that messy. However, its a pain to work on and troubleshoot when its that way. When i get hired to clean a mess up like that, its easier to label everything and then take all wires out and start from scratch. I tell the customer i need half a day to cut in a panel and clean it up so they would be without power for that long. Some are ok with it and others dont want to be burdened and cant stand being with no TV or xBox for that short amount of time so they pass. If it were my panel i would clean it up!

U think that panels bad? Try cleaning up a commercial panel in say an old McDonalds. WHAT A FRICKING MESS.

Or any commercial building in Omaha after 5 south of the border remodel jobs!
That mess could definitely use some cleaning up though.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

No joking around here:

Neatness only counts in surveying. I've seen

plenty of what electricians leave on a job, calling

it "done" and let me tell you that your panel is almost

pristine to some I've looked at. If it bothers you that

much, then straighten it up to your liking. It won't

make it work any better than it does in its' present

condition, but, at least you will feel better.

Uncle Bob

They should be beaten with their own tools.

 

[Notgrownup]

Damn, you can't make that **** up.....

 

[MadMechMaster]

I'm near Chicago, so I don't ever see Romex. Is that an orange extension cord wired in?

 

[e462001]

I believe its orange romex, so ten gauge.

What do you all use up in Chicago?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I believe its orange romex, so ten gauge.

What do you all use up in Chicago?

Lame *** city of Chicago banned NM-b long ago...so they have to use conuit for everything- EMT, FMC, MC, BX/AC(oh wait BX is probably not allowed because code no longer allows the conduit to be used as EGC)...

 

[afbrian13]

Zmax-where in Omaha? Im in Bellevue. Argeed on those remodels. Hahaha

 

[teamextreme]

I also see several of my pet peeves all in one box. A handy box used for a GFI, feed thru on a handy box, and side feeding a handy box. Basically I hate handy boxes, but when you do any or in this case all of these things, that box is crammed and the wires likely are cut way too short to make it fit, and are jammed in there with high potential for insulation damage. I bet that EMT connector coming in the side is within fractions of an inch of touching the hot terminal on the GFI. First thing I would do is replace that with a 4 square deep box.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Please be safe... I always get antsy when people take the cover off a hot breaker box and start poking inside...

 

[Norcal]

Just a note: a SQ D HOM is not classified to be used in any panel, they are UL listed to be used in SQ D loadcenters only. Breakers are listed to be used in the manufacturers panels, some are UL classified to be used in other manufacturers panels but you have to have the paperwork to prove it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think I have a spare breaker that will fit the bill but if not I'll pick one up tomorrow. The only thing I see upstream of the box is the meter but I could be missing something as I don't know what I'm looking for.

I see three shielded wires and one bare wire coming in from outside. Does that count as four? My question is based off wiring being labeled as 12-3 and such. What is the difference between three wire and four wire anyways?

What do you mean by cut in a new box?

Sorry didnt see this earlier.

If u have a breaker with your meter, then 4-wire is fine but the tie bar needs to be removed.

If u have no breaker at the meter then 3-wire is fine and nothing needs to be changed.

3-wire is for before the first disconnect. After that u need 4-wire. The difference being an isolated neutral in the 4-wire.

If u take some pics and post em we can tell u what u have at the meter.

Cutting in a new box means cutting the wires and terminating them in the panel.

 

[pmilin]

I see the incoming feed is 4-wire but the neutral and ground bars are tied together. Before this panel, is there a disconnect or just a meter? If just a meter the feed should be 3-wire and if there is a disconnect, then it should be 4-wire as it is and the tie between the 2 bars NEEDS to be removed!

Looks like the neutrals and grounds are using the ground bus and neutral bus interchangeably. Shouldn't the all the grounds be on the ground bar and all of the neutrals be on the neutral bar?

 

[RivennHewn]

When we were buying our house, the bank refused to lend on it due to the condition of the "Panel". It was a 1948 fuse box that had been "Johnny Home Owner'd" to the point that I was scared to get into it.

I hired a contractor, and paid $2600. That was 13 years ago.

Probably the worst I'd ever seen.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like the neutrals and grounds are using the ground bus and neutral bus interchangeably. Shouldn't the all the grounds be on the ground bar and all of the neutrals be on the neutral bar?

It all depends on the answer to my previous questions. If this is the main service panel with no discpnnect ahead of it, then EGC and neutrals should land on the same bar...

 

[Kracin]

Or any commercial building in Omaha after 5 south of the border remodel jobs!
That mess could definitely use some cleaning up though.

hah, or any in the plant i work in here in omaha as well. seems like people know only a select few are going to see their neatness in the panel, so why bother right lol

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Zmax-where in Omaha? Im in Bellevue. Argeed on those remodels. Hahaha

Ive worked all over Omaha/Bellevue/Lincoln/cb.......... in the past,I don't do nearly as much as I used to though.
Up to my eyeballs rebuilding a code violation house I bought in south Omaha right now.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

hah, or any in the plant i work in here in omaha as well. seems like people know only a select few are going to see their neatness in the panel, so why bother right lol

Heres some of my past commercial work,I don't do nearly as much pipe bending anymore.

 

[CoopVA]

It all depends on the answer to my previous questions. If this is the main service panel with no discpnnect ahead of it, then EGC and neutrals should land on the same bar...

I believe he said this is the main panel to the house. Do not remove the bond bar between the ground and neutral if this is true...


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[Rickster55]

I would (and have) straighten out the spaghetti. As others have said, it won't work any better but it'll look nicer. But only if you are confident with your level of skill to do it.

 

[Kracin]

Heres some of my past commercial work,I don't do nearly as much pipe bending anymore.

nice, looks like too much work from lazy people.

we have engineers who don't give a F. hooking motors up with emt runs on floating bases, going around our crew and paying commonwealth to do some BS while we aren't in the building like doing 480 power drops with SO cord for permanent install of machines. using cabinets that are completely overloaded with wires, undersizing everything. it's damn annoying. but you can't blame them too much, they don't hire a single EE, or anyone that specializes in electrical (hell we don't, we just have to know it all), they take fresh out of college mech and a few other engineer types and throw them all in the mix and have them start doing stuff they never thought they'd be doing.

 

[CoopVA]

Heres some of my past commercial work,I don't do nearly as much pipe bending anymore.

Nice looking work.


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[CoopVA]

nice, looks like too much work from lazy people.

we have engineers who don't give a F. hooking motors up with emt runs on floating bases, going around our crew and paying commonwealth to do some BS while we aren't in the building like doing 480 power drops with SO cord for permanent install of machines. using cabinets that are completely overloaded with wires, undersizing everything. it's damn annoying. but you can't blame them too much, they don't hire a single EE, or anyone that specializes in electrical (hell we don't, we just have to know it all), they take fresh out of college mech and a few other engineer types and throw them all in the mix and have them start doing stuff they never thought they'd be doing.

Engineers....


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[frankush]

Lame *** city of Chicago banned NM-b long ago...so they have to use conuit for everything- EMT, FMC, MC, BX/AC(oh wait BX is probably not allowed because code no longer allows the conduit to be used as EGC)...

Say what you want, but I'd rather run pipe and pull my own wire, than play with romex all day long. I've seen crappy pipe runs, but they can't compare with most of the romex jobs I've seen all over the US.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Say what you want, but I'd rather run pipe and pull my own wire, than play with romex all day long. I've seen crappy pipe runs, but they can't compare with most of the romex jobs I've seen all over the US.

Ive seen good NM-b jobs and Ive seen bad ones.

Pipe can be done just as crappy- undersized/overfilled, bad bends, wrong connectors, etc!

Plus pipe adds cost to the job vs. NM-b

 

[Norcal]

According to someone whose opinion I respect, EMT over NM adds 20% to the cost of the job of wiring a house, but they have crews who sh*t & git.


But if you want to see a NM job done well enter "NM run with a iron" at your favorite search engine (hopefully not google) and you will see a work of art.


I did it for you.

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122256/NM_Run_With_An_Iron.html

 

[wyliesdiesels]

According to someone whose opinion I respect, EMT over NM adds 20% to the cost of the job of wiring a house, but they have crews who sh*t & git.


But if you want to see a NM job done well enter "NM run with a iron" at your favorite search engine (hopefully not google) and you will see a work of art.


I did it for you.

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122256/NM_Run_With_An_Iron.html

Gotta say thats some of the best NM-b wiring work ive ever seen!

Ive only been in a few of those multimillion dollar homes...

Doing NM that way has got to add to the job cost. But it sure does look amazing!

The time alone needed to plan the runs like that must be insane!

I would love to work and learn with that outfit!

Craftsmenship is still out there!

 

[Norcal]

Gotta say thats some of the best NM-b wiring work ive ever seen!

Ive only been in a few of those multimillion dollar homes...

Doing NM that way has got to add to the job cost. But it sure does look amazing!

The time alone needed to plan the runs like that must be insane!

I would love to work and learn with that outfit!

Craftsmenship is still out there!

Somebody has to be willing to pay for it, not many are.