Cleveland class WWII cruiser wrench?

[thehorse13]

I found this ordinary Billings 3/4 doe wrench along with a small but extremely beefy Williams doe.

Both are marked with 10c followed by USS. The only thing I can think of is camouflaged Cleveland class WWII cruisers.

Anyone else have thoughts?



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[thehorse13]

Here is the small Williams. The markings are much harder to see but they are there.



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[MR.X]

Hi those are just 2 different standards for identifying what bolts / nuts it fit. 1 (Hex) Cap Screw = 3/4" U.S.S. = 1 1/4 actual opening.

 

[Provincial]

The "0" is a hexagon. The "1" appears to be stamped with a different font. Can you confirm the opening sizes for both wrenches?

I interpret the big wrench as (hex) C 3/4 USS. Hexagon cap screw 3/4" USS. Mr. X is dead on. I think the "1" was added later for some other reason.

I would need a better photo of the small Williams to even guess on that one.

 

[MR.X]

Hi Jock. I think the stamped "1" is original. 1" (Hex) C does equal 3/4 U.S.S. right?

 

[Provincial]

Yes, 1" hex for the cap screw and 1-1/4" for the nut. You might want to edit your post #3 above.

I still think the "1" was stamped at a different time than the rest. Notice that without it, the rest seem better centered. And the font is different, with a much thinner line.

Perhaps it was decided that the opening size should be included after the main stamping was done, and no one wanted to make a new die to include it. Or it was done in the field.

 

[MR.X]

edit what?

 

[thehorse13]

Thanks fellas. They were in an olive drab 1940s Union cantilever toolbox which was why my guess leaned military.


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[MR.X]

Yes, 1" hex for the cap screw and 1-1/4" for the nut. You might want to edit your post #3 above.

I still think the "1" was stamped at a different time than the rest. Notice that without it, the rest seem better centered. And the font is different, with a much thinner line.

Perhaps it was decided that the opening size should be included after the main stamping was done, and no one wanted to make a new die to include it. Or it was done in the field.

Fonts (and centering) were all over the place back then when stamping wrench sizes, plus it wouldn't make any sense if it just had the mark for "Cap screw' with no size and then 3/4 U.S.S.

 

[Provincial]

edit what?

The reference to 3/4 USS being 1-1/4" opening. Only for the nuts.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I am with MR. X on this one. The marking makes perfect sense. The head of a 1" Hex Cap Screw and a 3/4" U.S.S. nut or bolt have the same diameter: 1-1/4" A.F. Which is almost certainly what the milled opening is. Hence, 1OC3/4U.S.S. It wouldn't make sense without a numerical reference for the Hex Cap Screw.

 

[Provincial]

I got confused by Mr.X's post #3 and thought he was referring to the USS fastener size being 3/4". Lugs post cleared up that the reference was for a 1" cap screw and a 3/4" nut. Based on that, the use of the Hexagon symbol is a clever way of indicating the Cap Screw part of the marking.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Based on that, the use of the Hexagon symbol is a clever way of indicating the Cap Screw part of the marking.

The hexagon symbol followed by a "C" was fairly standard for Hex Cap in that era as far as I have seen (Billings, Williams, and Bonney wrenches, at the least), but it would be interesting to know, academically, who used it first. The only other marking I have seen for Hex Cap Screw is "CAP". I will add that these types of markings (whether Hex Cap and U.S.S., Hex Cap and S.A.E., or U.S.S. and S.A.E.) are clearer when they appear on two different lines, which was far more typical. Out of the hundreds of wrenches I have from this era, I may have seen it on one line only a few times, and I'd have to dig for those. I don't know why Billings strung it all together like that on this head, especially when the wrench in this case is much larger than wrenches they've used two lines for.

EDIT: Adding a pic for context...

 

[MR.X]

I got confused by Mr.X's post #3 and thought he was referring to the USS fastener size being 3/4". Lugs post cleared up that the reference was for a 1" cap screw and a 3/4" nut. Based on that, the use of the Hexagon symbol is a clever way of indicating the Cap Screw part of the marking.

I think Lugz is on the right track by adding pictures and the fact that we are not is probably causing some unnecessary confusion but......
-What is your definition of "fastener size? because I am talking about the diameter of the bolt being 3/4".
-I assume when you say "3/4 nut" you mean a U.S.Standard nut that would fit a 3/4" diameter bolt ( 1 1/4") not actually a "3/4" (AF) nut. is that right?
-In an earlier post you mentioned "3/4 USS being 1-1/4 opening. Only for the nuts".....are you implying that on a U.S. Standard bolts and their corresponding nuts that the HEAD of the bolt is a different size than the NUT?

 

[MR.X]

I thought Lugz had cleared this up in post #11. At this point I am wishing that the wrench in question really was from a Cleveland Class WWII Cruiser, which was the main reason I clicked on this thread!


Declaratively, to minimize misunderstandings, and so that others can more easily point out disagreement if there even is any...

The A.F. diameter of the head on a 1" Hex Cap Screw is 1-1/4".
The A.F. diameter of the head of a 3/4" U.S.S. bolt is 1-1/4".
The A.F. diameter of the nut for a 3/4" U.S.S. bolt is 1-1/4".
The milled opening of the wrench is 1-1/4", fitting 1" Hex Caps and 3/4" U.S.S. nuts and bolts.

I thought Mr.X had cleared it up in post #3....However, I often take lazy shortcuts and or write in a grammatically incorrect manner in my posts that could lead to confusion. I want to believe we were all saying the same thing but by the wording of Jock's posts I wish I was standing next to him with some period wrenches, 3/4 diameter bolts w/associated nut and a 1" diameter cap screw and tape measure / calipers on a workbench in front of us...just to make sure and or learn something.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Sorry about that delete. I had second thoughts, not wanting to make things worse...

What may be the culprit in the confusion is that Hex Cap Screws had a change sometime around 1940. If you look at any wrenching chart up through 1939, you needed a wrench with a 1-1/4" milled opening to turn a 1" Hex Cap Screw. In 1941, you needed a wrench with a 1-5/16" opening. The change affected a few of the other larger sizes. U.S.S. and S.A.E. remained the same. I just remembered this change tripped me up a few times before I figured it out.

 

[Provincial]

I used the chart on page 94 of the Plomb 18A catalog to find the USS sizes. It shows the 1-1/4" opening for 3/4" USS nuts and bolts and also for 1" USS cap screws. In theory, one could use a USS nut on a USS cap screw and need a different size wrench for each end. A 3/4" diameter combination like this would use a 1-1/4" wrench for the nut and a 1" wrench for the cap screw.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I used the chart on page 94 of the Plomb 18A catalog to find the USS sizes. It shows the 1-1/4" opening for 3/4" USS nuts and bolts and also for 1" USS cap screws.

Thanks, Jock. In that case, I am not sure why there was any confusion or disagreement. That is what MR. X indicated in post #3, and, after several exchanges that seemed as if you guys were in disagreement, that's what I re-iterated in post #11 and the now-deleted post preserved by MR. X in post #15.

At the risk of going further down the rabbit hole, while I enjoy this era in history and collecting, I am not sure I would've enjoyed all aspects of being a mechanic at that time with all the different hardware standards. It was complex enough between U.S.S., (U.S.S.) Hex Cap, and S.A.E., and then the American Standard emerged with the new Hex Cap sizes.