Closed Cell Foam Insulation Causes Unintended Consequences

[danieldd]

Finally bit the bullet and had my Morton Building insulated with closed cell foam. The before and after temperature difference is remarkable and I'm quite happy with the installation.

However, it has come with a costly consequence that I couldn't have imagined.

There is a constant "cracking and popping" noise from the ceiling/roof every time the sun hits it, which here in the south is ALL the time! However, you can go out in the evening or early morning and its relatively quiet. I know what is causing it, but I am afraid there is nothing that can be done about it. You just can't go back and fix this problem.

Allow me to explain....

When the shop was originally built, Morton installed some rigid foam panels on the roof of the structure before putting the tin roof on. These foam panels offered some degree of heat rejection I guess. This was the only place they used these panels as the rest of the shop was uninsulated. These foam panels would creak and pop every now and then due to thermal expansion when the sun hit the roof. Now that the entire interior structure is covered in closed cell insulation the frequency of the cracking/popping/creaking noise is pretty much constant.

I am certain there is no remedy to fix this situation other than to just abandon doing anything thing else to the structure - just use it as a storage facility for the tractor, cars, and ATV stuff and construct a new building that meets my shop needs (4 post lift and automotive hobby shop). I've got the room on the land to build whatever I want, I just didn't want to incur the expense of another building, but I honestly don't think there is a fix to this one.

Installation of a ceiling and batt insulation to muffle the sound is out of the question as the trusses are on 12 foot centers and not designed to carry dead loads (I've discussed this in an earlier thread).

I guess the cheap solution is to just turn up the music loud enough to drown out the noise...

Here are some before and after pictures.

 

[LX-Markham]

I wouldn’t write it off quite yet. It might stop popping once the foam has settled.

I would trade that shop for my garage if your really want to get rid of it.

 

[930dreamer]

Did the spray foam people say the panels might be a problem if sprayed over?

 

[readhead]

People ask how moisture gets between the foam and the metal. This is one of the ways. The foam is delaminating. In a few years the water comes through the rust holes in the sheeting.

 

[danieldd]

Did the spray foam people say the panels might be a problem if sprayed over?

No, I don't recall that conversation. Rather, what I remember is they indicated they have done it before and it hasn't been a problem.

 

[danieldd]

People ask how moisture gets between the foam and the metal. This is one of the ways. The foam is delaminating. In a few years the water comes through the rust holes in the sheeting.

I am not sure I am following you. I expect you are talking specifically about the rigid foam panels? Never heard of what you are referring to...

 

[readhead]

Moisture causing damage in metal sided buildings with spray foam has been a problem for quite a while in both metal and wood framed buildings. Even though you have rigid foam at the roof you don’t have it in the walls. The foam is rigid but the metal expands and contracts and breaks the bond leaving a tiny space to attract moisture. In wood buildings it is also backing out the screws. It may take awhile but keep an eye out for rust spots.

 

[Toyomech]

This is a first for me. What is your theory? Do you believe the metal roof is trying to expand and the adhesion of the foam is preventing it and causing a popping sound? Sounds like the foam is not directly sprayed to the metal but rather to the foam board?

 

[yeldogt]

Moisture causing damage in metal sided buildings with spray foam has been a problem for quite a while in both metal and wood framed buildings. Even though you have rigid foam at the roof you don’t have it in the walls. The foam is rigid but the metal expands and contracts and breaks the bond leaving a tiny space to attract moisture. In wood buildings it is also backing out the screws. It may take awhile but keep an eye out for rust spots.

Not sure what you speak ..... if indeed there is a bond break ...where would the moisture be coming from in a wood building ? any space dries to the exterior.

 

[readhead]

Doesn’t happen as much in the southwest, but in medium and high humidity climates moisture will find its way in and sit there and start rusting from the inside out. I’ve seen in buildings only two years old but mostly 7-10 years old.

 

[karoc]

Doesn’t happen as much in the southwest, but in medium and high humidity climates moisture will find its way in and sit there and start rusting from the inside out. I’ve seen in buildings only two years old but mostly 7-10 years old.

Readhead,it sound you are speaking from experience.But I have also read that this is a problem with spray foam but contractors not saying anything. I haven't started my pole barn yet so this is an important subject each time I see a post about spray foam cause I am still on the fence. But maybe this is the post that will put me on ground.
Readhead other than the spray foam and double bubble what can be done to keep condensation from starting? I know proper venting but what did old timers do before spray foam to battle the moisture?

 

[428PI]

I can hear the sun hit my tin shed. It's 50 years old. If I remember right, a Morton rep at the state fair told me they don't warranty their metal if spray foamed?

 

[finn]

I also heard that several metal building companies void any warranty If insulated with spray foam sprayed to the deck underside.

My room addition is spray foamed, but the builder put in what is effectively a baffle with an air gap under the sheathing. Last I spoke with him, he was going to experiment with “hot decking, ie spraying directly to the deck underside, but had reservations. One of his senior guys was here last week, and I asked him how the hot deck trial went. He said they abandoned the technique because of heavy ice build up on several buildings in our snowy climate, and went back to spraying under a baffle with an air gap.

The unheated and uninsulated enclose lean to on my shop is noisy, with snapping and popping in sunny weather. The main shop, under the same roof, is quiet, but has a ceiling under the bottom truss cord and considerable blown cellulose to quiet things down.

The snapping and popping of the lean to roof is accompanied by several leaks which have developed over the years, probably from the expanding metal rubbing and wearing the fastener washers. Tightening the fasteners reduced but didn’t eliminate the leaks, so we used a sealer this summer.. so far, so good.

I suspect the reported panel corrosion is related to small leaks at the fastener which can’t dry if spray foam is applied directly to the underside of the steel.

 

[readhead]

Fiberglass batt insulation is still the best bet. There is enough air movement to allow drying. The insulation needs to be sourced from a commercial insulation supplier. Most will sell to the public and they can recommend the best product for your situation. There is a whole world of insulation products that the DIY crowd is unaware of.

Double bubble is a useless waste of money. It does very little and fails quickly. It is a low cost option that is offered so the company can say they offer insulation. A lot of people don’t insulate during construction to save money thinking they can come back later and install it. This plan almost always costs more and takes longer to work around the structure.

 

[walrus]

The snapping and popping of the lean to roof is accompanied by several leaks which have developed over the years, probably from the expanding metal rubbing and wearing the fastener washers. Tightening the fasteners reduced but didn’t eliminate the leaks, so we used a sealer this summer.. so far, so good.

I suspect the reported panel corrosion is related to small leaks at the fastener which can’t dry if spray foam is applied directly to the underside of the steel.

This sounds correct to me, its a leaking roof that causes the issue, the foam make it worse because it hides the leak. Exposed fasteners are the issue and why I wouldn't do anything but a storage area with exposed fasteners

 

[karoc]

I also heard that several metal building companies void any warranty If insulated with spray foam sprayed to the deck underside.

My room addition is spray foamed, but the builder put in what is effectively a baffle with an air gap under the sheathing.

Was the baffle ran all way up to the ridge? I watch a Youtube where guy ran it all the way up.

 

[danieldd]

Whatever Morton warranty there is on this building only applies to the original purchaser, for which I am not. So, warranty issues for me is a moot point.

Warranty issues aside, when I originally inquired about insulating my shop, the majority of people posted here recommended closed cell foam. Now, there are dissenting opinions. Not blaming anyone here. Ultimately it is my shop, my decision, and my responsibility.

If it leaks or rusts at some point in the future, I'll deal with it at that juncture. Not much can be done about it now. As I pointed out earlier, I will most likely just continue to use this as a machine storage area and build another structure for my specific needs.

 

[acer66]

Just thinking out loud here, could it be a solution to put another roof on top of the old one with an air baffle underneath?

 

[finn]

Was the baffle ran all way up to the ridge? I watch a Youtube where guy ran it all the way up.

Yes, with a conventional ridge vent and soffit vents.. the air gap is probably the thickness of a 2x2. Lots of extra work involved compared to spraying a hot deck.

 

[manwithtools]

Just thinking out loud here, could it be a solution to put another roof on top of the old one with an air baffle underneath?

Possible, but I doubt the trusses are rated for the additional dead load.

 

[jetranger]

Just thinking out loud here, could it be a solution to put another roof on top of the old one with an air baffle underneath?

That seems pretty doable.... a lot easier than removing the foam and/or building a whole new shop. Out here in the southwest, when they convert as asphalt shingle roof to metal, they use unistrut or something similar to make a gap and put the metal over that.

 

[danieldd]

Possible, but I doubt the trusses are rated for the additional dead load.

Another sore point of contention with me is about the same issue you raise here. With a 12 foot span between trusses, there is not much I can do..

 

[karoc]

Lot of people has the spray foam and not one has yet to say don't do it even if it does void warranty. But some companys offer spray foam as choice,so danieldd said its your shop do what you want. I am a believer of that statement.

 

[Firebrick43]

Lot of people has the spray foam and not one has yet to say don't do it even if it does void warranty. But some companys offer spray foam as choice,so danieldd said its your shop do what you want. I am a believer of that statement.

It has been brought up before about rust and water damage issues. I have seen one pole barn with three laminated post rotted off in ten years along with rust do to spray foam. As it’s only become prevalent in the last 15 years you will start seeing many more failures in the next few years

 

[readhead]

Spray foam is a great product and does everything it’s supposed to do it just turns out to be a bad fit for metal siding.

 

[stm317]

Spray foam is a great product and does everything it’s supposed to do it just turns out to be a bad fit for metal siding.

Is the issue primarily due to the foam and metal in contact with one another? Seems like having a layer of something like Tyvek between the foam and the metal would prevent a lot of the decoupling and allow the metal to move as it needs to without impacting the foam. It should also help keep at least some of the water out right, should a fastener leak at some point?

 

[readhead]

You are correct, however unlike typical stick framing, pole buildings and metal buildings have long spans between framing members and the wrap will not support the foam.

 

[jollygreengiant]

Spray foam is a great product and does everything it’s supposed to do it just turns out to be a bad fit for metal siding.

I don't think it's just metal siding. I was told that in older houses that its rigidity can be a problem. As the house moves the foam doesn't and it ends up cracking, which causes large amounts of air leaks.

Now I was told this by someone who has seen it, but I have not personally seen it so I can't attest to the accuracy. But it does make sense.

 

[bradpac]

Maybe my brain isn't thinking right on this, but...with the rigid foam 'deck' you wouldn't think it would pop and creak that much unless the rigid foam was actually stuck to the metal panels and was separating, and poppin gmore now because the spray foam isn't allonig the rigid to move any. The metal is what should be moving and the rigid foam should be floating under it, muffling the noise, and spray foam should make it even quieter. What am I missing? Are you sure the louder popping isn't from the walls?

 

[jetranger]

Maybe my brain isn't thinking right on this, but...with the rigid foam 'deck' you wouldn't think it would pop and creak that much unless the rigid foam was actually stuck to the metal panels and was separating, and poppin gmore now because the spray foam isn't allonig the rigid to move any. The metal is what should be moving and the rigid foam should be floating under it, muffling the noise, and spray foam should make it even quieter. What am I missing? Are you sure the louder popping isn't from the walls?

That rigid foam has be be stuck to the metal with 12' centers.... otherwise it would be sagging, even without the weight of the spray-in.

 

[welder57]

Your best solution, if you have the money, Add Roof huggers to the existing roof panels and new panels on top of that. You can add insulation on the upper side of the roof huggers and screw the new panels on top of the insulation. It would insulated and maybe keep the cracking popping sound you have on the roof.

 

[Diesel Dan]

I don't think it's just metal siding. I was told that in older houses that its rigidity can be a problem. As the house moves the foam doesn't and it ends up cracking, which causes large amounts of air leaks.

Now I was told this by someone who has seen it, but I have not personally seen it so I can't attest to the accuracy. But it does make sense.

Improper mix can cause shrinkage and it will pull away. That could be what they were seeing.

While I can't offer assistance to the OPs issue here is my anecdotal experiences.
-the few pole barns I've built, or been involved with, set posts 8' OC, trusses 2' OC, OSB roof sheathing regardless if shingles, ribbed steel or standing seam.
-one shop has closes cell on the walls but has OSB sheathing and vinyl siding
-the one with closed cell sprayed to roof OSB has standing seam metal
-another metal sided barn used 8' wide PEBS fiberglass

In MY barns I won't use spray foam directly to metal.
The metal WILL move, period.

I'm a proponent of foam. Our entire living area has closed cell foam but it's applied to the OSB.

Have been around HUGE iron buildings around 30 yrs old and over time exposed screws back out or in some cases the heads snap off. That's one big advantage of standing seam, the fastener holes are slotted so it doesn't pull so hard on the fasteners.

 

[bradpac]

That rigid foam has be be stuck to the metal with 12' centers.... otherwise it would be sagging, even without the weight of the spray-in.

Good point.

 

[jb garage]

Not to hijack the thread but seeings there are a few dissenters here any negatives to spray foaming the attic in my house? I was considering opencell. I have GAF shingles on OSB with radiant barrier on the attic side. Stick frame house, brick.

 

[mcbane]

That rigid foam has be be stuck to the metal with 12' centers.... otherwise it would be sagging, even without the weight of the spray-in.

From the photo it appears to be laying on purlins spaced at around 2ft. No need to have stuck it to the metal.

 

[karoc]

readhead could you give an example of what insulation to use? I'm guessing that it is the vinyl insulation that comes in a roll that is about 6'x100'x 3" which is about 280.00 roll. I am so glad to find all this out before I start my project,I was going with the foam but there is lot of people here who has it and says its fantastic but guessing these projects are new. What did people use before spray foam to stop condensation?

 

[readhead]

That is the insulation I am talking about. You can order it any width, thickness and length you want. Contact a commercial insulation supplier. Most of them will sell to the public.

 

[skippydoo]

My pole building makes all kinds of noises as the temps rise and cool. The building must expand and contract more than on thinks. My builder was to wrap the entire building with Tyvek, he only did the walls, forgot the ceiling and that's where my problems started. My builder put in a product from Levi's building products. He stapled it to the truss's. I asked the spray foam salesman and the owner of the spray foam company, is this ok? Yes, no problem. As my building expanded and contracted it pulled the foam off truss's and began to fall down. 3 inches closed cell. The guy came back and ripped it all out. He said he wasn't going to stray the roof again, we will spray the ceiling. I go to work and come home to find them spraying the roof again. I have spots where the snow melts right away , it's a mess! Please do your research before you use spray foam!

 

[kj_mustang]

My experience as I have stated several times on posts here. Pole building with a metal roof with 2x4 purlins set every 2', trusses on half the building set at 2' and other half set at 4'. I have 2" closed cell foam applied directly to the roof metal and then about 6" open cell sprayed over that. Walls are metal over 2x4 girts with 2" closed cell foam sprayed directly. Lived in the building for about 2 years so I have a lot of experience dealing with it. Building does pop and creak some when heating up in direct sun but is generally very quiet. No issues at all with the foam. Very easy to heat and cool. Interior is conditioned year round. I have pulled wall metal away from the foam with ease to repair a minor rip in the metal near the ground. Foam stayed solid and non-moving.

 

[dcg9381]

In MY barns I won't use spray foam directly to metal.
The metal WILL move, period.

I'm a proponent of foam. Our entire living area has closed cell foam but it's applied to the OSB.

I hear you, but I've watched steel building in the south (mainly airport hangers / barndominiums) that have foam applied over steel and I've yet to see one reported problem. Some of these installs are 13+ years old.

I need to ask around about the "popping" - my building is open cell and I've had no problems with noise. Our roof is highly reflective galvalume though.. I've basically been in this building every day for the last 6+ months and my biggest noise complaint is with roll-up doors that are a bit sloppy in the wind.

I have no doubt that any of these buildings had a corrosion issue, they'd deny the warranty... They'd likely be only on the hook for materials anyway.