Closed cell foam

[Jwbfx4]

I know there are a lot of topics on here about foam in general, but really didn’t find what I was looking for. Looking at having closed cell sprayed in a 30’x50’x16’. The building already has 3” vinyl backed insulation in the ceiling, so I’ll just be spraying the walls. Also have 3 uninsulated roll up doors.

With the rolls up doors and the regular insulation in the ceiling, will I run into any issues? Will this stop the condensation that is sometimes seen on the inside? Or will I run into any other moisture issues? Thanks for any insight.

 

[finn]

Why closed cell instead of open cell?

I think they flash covered my house addition with closed cell and used open cell for the actual R value.

Open cell is substantially cheaper.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Seems like expensive insulation for the walls when you have little in the ceiling and none in the doors.
I don't think it will change moisture much. It should stop condensation on the walls.
Won't do anything about the ceiling or floor.
Are you spraying it directly on the metal? I believe that the metal manufacturers don't like it, say it causes rust. Insulation people say it's fine.

 

[Jwbfx4]

Why closed cell instead of open cell?

I think they flash covered my house addition with closed cell and used open cell for the actual R value.

Open cell is substantially cheaper.

Open cell is a lot cheaper and that’s what is in my home. But closed cell does seal out water unlike open cell. Only reason for my decision.

 

[Jwbfx4]

Seems like expensive insulation for the walls when you have little in the ceiling and none in the doors.
I don't think it will change moisture much. It should stop condensation on the walls.
Won't do anything about the ceiling or floor.
Are you spraying it directly on the metal? I believe that the metal manufacturers don't like it, say it causes rust. Insulation people say it's fine.

If I decide to go with vinyl backed like the ceiling it’s a $400 difference at this point. That’s not the norm by far but walked into a good deal for once.

Condensation has been no problem in the ceiling or floor. Floor only shows moisture if something above it condensates and drip. Granted I just got this building with some land I purchased so not much in there but, the tractor was soaked and some of the walls.

Understand what some tin manufacturers say and not really concerned with that, will take my chances on that end.

Just no sense in adding this and it not change anything. Or I have to do a bunch of other things to get the condensation to stop. Not concerned with the insulating aspect. I do appreciate the feedback.

 

[yeldogt]

The condensation all depends on the humidity level.

Closed cell will not allow moisture to flow through -- they use closed against sheathing so moisture does not migrate between the foam and the sheathing .. causing rot. The addition of open cell or even batt on top is just to make the code people happy.

The old theory was 5 inches of open at least to stop moisture flow -- but evidently this is still not enough.

I have done closed and batt -- but the cost saving is not all that great I my area since 4" of foam gets us most of the way.

 

[Chris705]

Just a curious question....with the vinyl faced ceiling insulation I assume the vinyl side faces the interior (or is it vinyl faced on both sides?)....is the fiberglass insulation getting wet when the humidity is high?

Since your getting such a good deal on the closed cell foam could you consider taking out the fiberglass and creating an insulated shell with foam? I seams while sealing the sidewalls will work with the foam you will still have a lot if air infiltration, when that moist air gets inside the cooler space I believe that is when the condensation is taking place? Sealing up ALL the nooks and crannies will solve that but as moisture laden air continues to enter you will still have that problem I believe.....

 

[Jwbfx4]

Just a curious question....with the vinyl faced ceiling insulation I assume the vinyl side faces the interior (or is it vinyl faced on both sides?)....is the fiberglass insulation getting wet when the humidity is high?
....

That’s correct vinyl on both sides. It’s pulled right to the ceiling so I can’t tell if it’s wet on the top side, but the inside is not.

I’m definitely considering having the whole thing sprayed. Just hate wasting what’s already there.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Closed cell can dent sheetmetal. It is difficult to remove damaged components from exterior.

Open cell allows drying to interior and exterior. I believe getting rid of water is more practical than preventing it from penetrating from somewhere and traveling somewhere else and not allowed to escape.

 

[DC73]

While closed cell foam does stop the transmission of water vapor, you also have to consider the effects of condensation. A certain thickness of closed cell foam is required to move the dew point outside the envelope of the wall. How thick it needs to be is highly dependent on climate. Once you get enough closed cell foam to prevent condensation inside the wall assembly, you can get the rest of your r-value from less expensive forms of insulation. See BuildingScience.com and GreenBuildingAdvisor.com for more information. At least one of those sites used to have chart that recommended minimum thickness of closed cell foam for each climate zone.

DC

 

[theoldwizard1]

Seems like expensive insulation for the walls when you have little in the ceiling and none in the doors.
I don't think it will change moisture much. It should stop condensation on the walls.

It will make a difference in moisture control sprayed on the walls, especially if the interior is heated or cooled.

You are correct, the OP need more insulation in the ceiling.

 

[MrSurly]

I believe that the metal manufacturers don't like it, say it causes rust.

I'd really like for someone to provide a link to this info. I see versions of this repeated, but I haven't found any manufacturers statement on it.
I have both Open- and Closed-cell directly on metal. I'm always interested in the topic.

BTW: another claim is that removing metal that's been foamed will "be a nightmare" hasn't been evident to me... but I haven't had to strip any large areas. Small areas that I have had to remove for a window, etc has been no trouble at all, pulling the metal away from closed-cell..

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I'd really like for someone to provide a link to this info. I see versions of this repeated, but I haven't found any manufacturers statement on it.
I have both Open- and Closed-cell directly on metal. I'm always interested in the topic.

BTW: another claim is that removing metal that's been foamed will "be a nightmare" hasn't been evident to me... but I haven't had to strip any large areas. Small areas that I have had to remove for a window, etc has been no trouble at all, pulling the metal away from closed-cell..

I believe I posted a brief statement stating both sides of the argument. Sorry I'm not going to do a full investigation, or support either one.

To add to my answer (for the OPs consideration) it's pretty easy and low cost to have spray foam that is not directly on the metal. If I were doing it I'd use normal house wrap, same as I would for fiberglass.

I still don't think that a significant amount of humidity, or temperature difference (that results in condensation) is coming through the walls.

 

[astrohip]

I know there are a lot of topics on here about foam in general, but really didn’t find what I was looking for. Looking at having closed cell sprayed in a 30’x50’x16’. The building already has 3” vinyl backed insulation in the ceiling, so I’ll just be spraying the walls. Also have 3 uninsulated roll up doors.

With the rolls up doors and the regular insulation in the ceiling, will I run into any issues? Will this stop the condensation that is sometimes seen on the inside? Or will I run into any other moisture issues? Thanks for any insight.

My experience: I have closed cell on every metal surface, walls & ceiling, of my barn/shop. Not the OH doors. It's a 50x50x14 metal building.

It makes a huge difference in terms of heat gain. A metal barn in Texas in the summer is an oven. But with the closed cell sprayed everywhere, it's actually quite comfortable. You can put your hand on a west facing wall, and it's cool to the touch. Put it on an OH door that is right next to it, and you can cook eggs. I assume it helps in the winter too, but our winters are milder.

Condensation? It still gets humid inside, as the air isn't treated or conditioned in any way. I don't think it gets AS humid, but that's anecdotal. I don't have much moisture on the floor, and I do see moisture in other places (eg, garage of house, concrete floor outside patios, etc).

I have zero regrets. And the builder recommended it, so no worries there.