CNC vs Manual Machine Tools - Puzzled

[gte718p]

I wonder sometimes how many companies over look very qualified individuals because they don't have a framed rag.

I am absolutely sure it happens all the time. I'm sure I have done it. However, most people know the rules of the game we play. If you want to drop out of high school or finish your professional education at high school there are risks.

As I said in the the last college bashing thread, hiring people is a risk decision. Employees are a risk. I have a small consulting company. You will not find any advertising for me. You are unlikely to find anything other then my business registration on the internet. I get work entirely by word of mouth. An employee leaving a bad impression with a customer could end my business. An employee breaking a none disclosure agreement or losing control of some of the proprietary data I use could literally bankrupt me.

A college degree doesn't make you a good person. It doesn't make you competent. However, it is an objective way to show this person went above and beyond what was required and this person completed something difficult. A degree or being in a degree seeking program is on of the first line filters I and many other people use to help manage risk.

 

[4 FN 27]

4 FN 27, I have been in the metal working/ machining industry for 20 years, owned a shop for 7 and now I teach machine shop at the Vocational high school I graduated from. Without getting overly involved I will say that all of your posts in this this thread explain the problems we face and their solutions very, very well.

Thank you 6spCR.

I have been in the Sheet Metal business for 38 years...if you count the years I mowed the lawn and just went to work with my Dad I go back to 1968 pushing the cycle start button on a Strippit Fabri-Center Turret.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I like the idea of owning a CNC machine, more likely to end up with an XY table and a drill press (I know, i know, milling with a drill press is bad).

The closest I've come is building a replacement for a logsplitter hydraulic control valve out of flat stock. turns out engines don't last forever, and neither do cheap parts.

 

[William Payne]

I like the idea of owning a CNC machine, more likely to end up with an XY table and a drill press (I know, i know, milling with a drill press is bad).

The closest I've come is building a replacement for a logsplitter hydraulic control valve out of flat stock. turns out engines don't last forever, and neither do cheap parts.

The problem with mill drills is they are not solid/rigid enough. They vibrate too much so accuracy is terrible. That is why when you look at really accurate machines they tend to be really big and heavy.

 

[MushCreek]

Having over 40 years of experience machining metals, I think newbies need some manual experience. It really helps to develop a 'feel' particularly in difficult materials and operations. I work with tool steels, and the rules change with different alloys- sometimes, a lot. The carbide inserts I use show the recommended feeds and speeds, but using those numbers in D2, for example, results in rapid destruction of the carbide inserts. I have the experience to 'read' the inserts to make a sensible change in the machining condition.

I once had a young boss who had limited experience, but was stubborn and wouldn't take suggestions. He insisted that CNC could run much higher feeds and speeds. I watched him smoke a new 1" end mill, trying to cut tool steel at 1,000 RPM with a high speed steel cutter. You couldn't tell him otherwise as he would get pissed (and he was the boss). Some hands-on experience is a great teacher for someone like that.

I heard years ago, that Mercedes-Benz used to make their new apprentices use nothing but a file for their first month. The idea was that that way they would get a feel for cutting metal at the lowest, slowest level. I don't know if it was true, and it seems extreme, but you get the idea.

I'm decidedly old-school, but I guess times change. When I was a kid, we had to learn to scull a rowboat with one oar before we could use the boat with two oars. The reason was that you had to have a way to get home if you lost or broke an oar. Once you were proficient at rowing, you were taught how to use a sailboat. Only after you were proficient at rowing and sailing, THEN you got to learn how to use a power boat. We also had to learn to tie a variety of knots. Now days, I guess they just toss you the keys to an 80 MPH bass boat, and you learn 'seamanship' with an app on your phone.

 

[7echo]

"Funny to hear people complain about schools not doing their job. Working in higher education myself, I can see first hand how easy it is to fall behind in technology, machinery and best practices.

Teachers "teach" what they know. Administrators are at the mercy of sales people and hucksters (Industry "focus groups"). They have to make decisions with limited budgets and competing programs. ****-ups and squeaky wheels tend to rule."

Some of the teachers still want to do things the way they learned from some professor 20 years ago. No interest in moving on to new ways, potentially better ways.

Far too often a teacher or administrator will get sold on a new widget and 'have to have it to keep up'. They soon abandon the shiny new thing due to discovering 'OMG, this involves work!'

Where I work we, for the most part, do not let teachers or administrators choose the shop/lab equipment or machines.

 

[4 FN 27]

I am absolutely sure it happens all the time. I'm sure I have done it. However, most people know the rules of the game we play. If you want to drop out of high school or finish your professional education at high school there are risks.

I am proud to be a rule breaker. I will and have hired anyone who brings the required and valued skill set to the table regardless of their education level.

As I said in the the last college bashing thread, hiring people is a risk decision. Employees are a risk. I have a small consulting company. You will not find any advertising for me. You are unlikely to find anything other then my business registration on the internet. I get work entirely by word of mouth. An employee leaving a bad impression with a customer could end my business. An employee breaking a none disclosure agreement or losing control of some of the proprietary data I use could literally bankrupt me.

Understand I have not weighed in on the other conversation. I am not a College or continuing education basher. At 54 I am considering going back to school to hone my Machining Skills.

We all run these risks of hiring. Everyone of us even if we only hire ourselves. The risk of doing business. Stupidity knows no bounds. I have had a very few incidents over the past 30 years, mostly revolving around ****** harassment where the company was exposed based on an employees behavior educated or not. While thinking about it now as I type, the higher their education the worse the offense. I will not draw a conclusion based on that but like addiction there are no social barriers to stupidity and bad behavior.

A college degree doesn't make you a good person. It doesn't make you competent. However, it is an objective way to show this person went above and beyond what was required and this person completed something difficult. A degree or being in a degree seeking program is on of the first line filters I and many other people use to help manage risk.

I have a couple of employees that could not seek a degree because of life circumstances...until they worked here. We give them flexible schedules and pay a portion of their education after they graduate. I am hoping a few more take us up n this offer. I am all about people having the opportunity to better themselves.

We just moved our CNC Machinist Set-up/Operator from the floor into Engineering after sending him back to school. He is doing double duty helping onboard one of our lead assemblers into the machining role. The assembler has zero experience but has the mechanical aptitude and the desire to make it work. We are putting together a plan for that works for him and works for us to get him off to school too. SO far he is doing a great job with a lot of direction. An investment on our part and a risk we are willing to take to make us better and stronger.

Our goal is simple: Keep growing this beast at a controlled rate, increasing our diversity amongst our customer based in varying markets securing our employees futures. I cannot stagnate this process by only hiring based on a degree. If they have the skill set required, or want to learn the skill set and grow into a position and develop a career path we are all in. Based on our current 3 year plan we need to hire 10 people per year and maintain those that we have currently while remaining competitive.

My fear is we are heading to a Skilled Fabricator/Machinist Labor Cliff. Those of us who have spent the last 30 years growing together are going to be retiring in the next 10-15 years. Thus we need to be proactive by automating where we can, for a lack of better words, dumb down the process and make the investments now to build on what we have and what is coming in the door.

I like a challenge.

 

[MushCreek]

The youngest actual mold maker where I work is 62, and we don't have any young ones coming up. Half our crew will retire in the next couple years. A lot of what I do now doesn't lend itself to a CNC solution. Take a small component, measure the wear, weld up the surfaces, and then carefully grind and EDM back to shape. First, it's a one-off. Second, by the time you pick up a surface and start machining it, you're just about done. Lastly, and most importantly is the skill required to troubleshoot and prescribe a fix in a very time sensitive atmosphere. They never really taught those kind of skills in school- it comes down to experience, and lots of it. Many places don't place a very high value on those skills, and don't want to pay for it. The most money I made in one year was in 1992! Things have gone up in price a wee bit since then...

 

[u3b3rg33k]

The probably with mill drills is they are not solid/rigid enough. They vibrate too much so accuracy is terrible. That is why when you look at really accurate machines they tend to be really big and heavy.

It's an old Atlas with SKF bearings. It's also time to try to figure out how to rebuild it - been around a long time.

 

[Maui]

I think another factor at play here is that there just isn't the same level of interest in machining that there was among students 30+ years ago. Fewer of them appear to possess the necessary mathematical skills as well, and this doesn't show any signs of improving anytime soon.

Maui

 

[zendriver]

I think another factor at play here is that there just isn't the same level of interest in machining that there was among students 30+ years ago. Fewer of them appear to possess the necessary mathematical skills as well, and this doesn't show any signs of improving anytime soon.

Maui

Agreed but I think many of them don't have interest for two reasons.

1. They've never been exposed to it. I went to school in the 60s and 70s where jr high "shop class" was required for all students at least the boys, where the very basics ffrom most every industrial art was taught I didn't matter if they were going to college or to a factory, everybody knew how to mix plastic resin, set printing type or drill a hole in a piece of wood. I was inspired by at least knowing that stuff certainly many others would be too.

2. Shop class became the dumping place for "losers", while everyone else was pushed towards the SATs FAFSA and expensive colleges using borrowed money.

Round here at the shop equipment was either sold or move to "alternate schools" where the teenage mothers and juvenile delinquent's were sent to, to get them away from everybody else.

Many of our kids don't seem to be inspired by much of anything anymore.


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[4 FN 27]

Agreed but I think many of them don't have interest for two reasons.

1. They've never been exposed to it. I went to school in the 60s and 70s where jr high "shop class" was required for all students at least the boys, where the very basics ffrom most every industrial art was taught I didn't matter if they were going to college or to a factory, everybody knew how to mix plastic resin, set printing type or drill a hole in a piece of wood. I was inspired by at least knowing that stuff certainly many others would be too.

2. Shop class became the dumping place for "losers", while everyone else was pushed towards the SATs FAFSA and expensive colleges using borrowed money.

Round here at the shop equipment was either sold or move to "alternate schools" where the teenage mothers and juvenile delinquent's were sent to, to get them away from everybody else.

Many of our kids don't seem to be inspired by much of anything anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Amen to that!!!

I talked to the President of local Trade School in Minneapolis 2 years ago at a seminar. I asked him who is the average student they see coming in?

His response:

60% post high school kids that the first thing they do is teach them math and how to get out of bed (I am paraphrasing here and shortening up the verbiage he used. My words, not his, he was way more PC than I will ever be).

40% College Grads with BA degrees in meaningless fields where they cannot make a living, averaging $60-80K of college debt. And they know how to do math.

 

[matt_i]

My take is its good to learn a few things on the manual machines, not really necessary to master the art there but just get a feel for what the tools can and can't do.

a CNC machine has a couple of advantages, first the ability to create complex geometry via interpolation, and second the ability to knock out a bazillion parts that are more or less the same within limits of the edge tools and the servos. And maybe a 3rd, you can chase threads at the speed of light as compared to a manual machine going up to a shoulder...

Where I get slowed down is manual programming. I don't feel like I could make enough money with my Fadal as a job shop without CAM (which I don't own...I program manually via entering text files into Notepad then transferring via USB/RS232). I would have to import the math data and CAM right to a program and build trust that it would work out correctly.

I think one of the most important things though is armed with some basic knowledge of both sets of machines, one can become a lot better designer...how to make the part easy to build, how to use standard stock sizes, loose dimensions where they are appropriate.

 

[paranoid56]

I was asked to do some judging at a local stem high school and i was blown away by their "basic" shop.

 

[4 FN 27]

I was asked to do some judging at a local stem high school and i was blown away by their "basic" shop.

Now that is how it should be!!!

 

[tdkkart]

Hmmm, TRAK mills, I can rebuild that variable speed spindle drive in my sleep......

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Agreed but I think many of them don't have interest for two reasons.

1. They've never been exposed to it. I went to school in the 60s and 70s where jr high "shop class" was required for all students at least the boys, where the very basics ffrom most every industrial art was taught I didn't matter if they were going to college or to a factory, everybody knew how to mix plastic resin, set printing type or drill a hole in a piece of wood. I was inspired by at least knowing that stuff certainly many others would be too.

2. Shop class became the dumping place for "losers", while everyone else was pushed towards the SATs FAFSA and expensive colleges using borrowed money.

Round here at the shop equipment was either sold or move to "alternate schools" where the teenage mothers and juvenile delinquent's were sent to, to get them away from everybody else.

Many of our kids don't seem to be inspired by much of anything anymore.


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Looking back, I wish I'd done shop in HS - I didn't realize they had it until way later. No one ever suggested it to me. I did a lot of computer stuff, including elective CAD & C++ courses.