CO2 / Generators

[mobiledynamics]

Fellow GJ's

Hi Far are your generators from the house...

I've got two EU2000i being delivered today.
One of them I plan to convert to tri-fuel.
Will plan to run pipe outdoor next spring for natural gas source.



Ultimately, I plan to put the generators on our back *covered* porch . However, due to there being a *top* *covered*, I do plan to MOD/extend the exhaust on it 3-4 feet out. Don't plan on going crazy an making something super long and cause backpressure issues.

Just long enough that it's well past the covered top and CO2 won't find it' path back in.

In the current situation as it, you hear about the *ones* who have been died due to running the gensets indoors.

Or the latter, where 2 teens died as the generator was outside, but the C02 found a way ~back in~ apparently due to a vacummn of air - low to warm air...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/10/2_sisters_die_newark_carbon_mo.html

 

[EOC_Jason]

We usually run our generator right up against the garage door with it open high enough for the generator to clear. Obviously exhaust is facing outwards. The past time when we had to use it, there was a length of that metal dryer exhaust line that we had sitting on the workbench. Set it up against the generator exhaust and we were able to move it back a few feet and close the door some more when the weather got real bad. It actually worked really good and helped muffle the sound some.

We have a detached garage though, so there's no way CO2 could have gotten into the house even if....

 

[kwb]

First off you need to be concerned more about CO than CO2.
Second a EU2000Wi genset is nice to have but IMHO it makes no sense to screw with the fuel system. The thing will run for a very long time on its own 1.2 gallon tank. If have 10-15 gallons on hand you can weather most any power outage. If you were talking about a 5000W or more genset then other fuel sources start making a lot more sense.

I would set the unit on the porch at edge of cover, exhaust pointing downwind and not worry about the exhaust pipe extension.

I have been through power outages up to 9 days and the 2000W genset was great to have but really did little more than keep the fridges and freezers cold and turn a couple of lights on. If you want to really be able to do much with anything around the house you need 5000w or more depending on your house (gas/electric stove, heat, hotwater, etc..)

My bet is that the prevailing wind and a door cracked open to run a cord through were mostly responsible in case of the deaths.

 

[philip_g]

Second a EU2000Wi genset is nice to have but IMHO it makes no sense to screw with the fuel system. The thing will run for a very long time on its own 1.2 gallon tank.

I don't own any gasoline vehicles, so keeping quantities of fuel around is troublesome as I can't rotate it through a vehicle and burn it to keep it fresh. A 20lb propane tank will store forever and run the generator a very long time, not to mention if I can run a hose from my natural gas line to the generator, well it'll run forever.

I didn't know you could convert the eu2000 to do it, I'll buy one when I have some extra $$.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Besides exhaust, a generator needs to draw in air for combustion and it also needs good air circulation around it for cooling. On top of that there's the danger of fire by running it inside a structure. The Honda manual says it should be kept at least three feet away from a building while in operation - personally I wouldn't run one inside the building.

 

[RECox286]

Don't fool yerselves, CO2 is poisonous to the human being, just as much

as CO is. This was a big problem during the Apollo 13 mission/rescue when

they had to modify a scrubber to work in the LEM, if you remember.

Uncle Bob

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ultimately, I plan to put the generators on our back *covered* porch .

If it just *covered* with no walls, don't worry about the exhaust or CO build up. Even if it is a walled summer porch with windows that open on 3 sides, I still would not worry.

"3 season" porches typically a sealed better and don't have a much moveable glass. I would NOT run a generator inside of a 3 season porch.


Your alternative is to build a "dog house" for you generator ! Find a place close to your gas line and close to the electrical connection (or close to a door/window for easy extension cord access). Remove the sod and dig down a couple of inches. Fill with gravel. If you are not 2-4" above the surrounding area, but a frame around you hole using 2x6 pressure treated and fill with gravel to the top. Throw a couple of patio stones down or cement coated styrofoam A/C pad.

Build you dog house out of foil faced 1-2" foam board, foil facing in. Make sure you have at least a 6" air gap between the exhaust and the side of the foam board. Cover the outside to match your house.

Remember, you have to let air in the box and heat and exhaust out ! A simple way to do this is to place bricks/blocks at each corner to lift the box up 2-4" when the generator is running.

Last, this "dog house" will be very light and can easily blow away. You will need some heavy blocks/planter on top to prevent this. Just make certain you build the roof with enough strength to hold 100+ lbs !!

 

[Burtonrider10022]

What are you planning on using for the exhaust? I've been thinking about this myself (exhaust modification) and was wondering if a generator's exhaust would be hot enough to melt PVC?

 

[kwb]

What are you planning on using for the exhaust? I've been thinking about this myself (exhaust modification) and was wondering if a generator's exhaust would be hot enough to melt PVC?

Yes it is

 

[kwb]

Don't fool yerselves, CO2 is poisonous to the human being, just as much

as CO is. This was a big problem during the Apollo 13 mission/rescue when

they had to modify a scrubber to work in the LEM, if you remember.

Uncle Bob

Apples and oranges.

CO will poison you, CO2 would need to displace a whole lot of the ordinary air 78%N 19% O2 to take O2 partial pressures (percentages) down to point that it won't sustain life.

 

[Burtonrider10022]

Yes it is

Damn. You're a party pooper lol

 

[mobiledynamics]

It won't be PVC....anything metal . Just depends on what the pipe size off the genny is. I dont' plan to make it really long. Just long enough to peep *out* into past the top cover which is not alot. It's not walled at all so it's open on 3 sides.

However, after reading about the tragic death of the 2 teens due to how it backdrafted, I want to take all precautions.

 

[shovelhead91701]

Fellow GJ's



Ultimately, I plan to put the generators on our back *covered* porch . However, due to there being a *top* *covered*, I do plan to MOD/extend the exhaust on it 3-4 feet out. Don't plan on going crazy an making something super long and cause backpressure issues.

Any exhaust extension you would likely make will cause backpressure issues on the particular generator engine you have ordered. It will over time cause you to burn valves. If you are worried about CO2 I would suggest an exhaust collection box with a small low amp blower fan piped to where you want the exhaust output instead.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I didn't know you could convert the eu2000 to do it, I'll buy one when I have some extra $$.

You can actually convert just about any generator with generic kits. They essentially add an adapter plate along the intake so you can use NG/LPG...

 

[rlitman]

Don't fool yerselves, CO2 is poisonous to the human being, just as much

as CO is. This was a big problem during the Apollo 13 mission/rescue when

they had to modify a scrubber to work in the LEM, if you remember.

Uncle Bob

CO2 is poisonous, but nowhere near as much as CO is. Water is poisonous in the right amounts too. The difference is that CO is poisonous at just a few parts per million. You need thousands of times as much CO2 for it to reach similarly toxic levels.

Any exhaust extension you would likely make will cause backpressure issues on the particular generator engine you have ordered. It will over time cause you to burn valves.

Not if you do it right. Your pipe just needs to be much bigger than the outlet hole of the muffler.

I have my welder/generator in a similar situation. Basically an area next to my garage. A solid PVC fence encloses it on the side opposite to the garage, and the top is enclosed by an awning. One end is pretty open, the other is only partly open.

My solution was to use a 4" vent pipe that goes up 6' to a rain cap. It is attached to the end of the awning, with a contraption I made to insulated the wood from the heat of the stack, with a pair of elbows that keep the generator out of the rain.
That 4" stack points up. The generator points horizontal.
So, I used a 1 1/2" brass drain elbow that's 18" long. It is just a little bigger than the output of the muffler. It turns the exhaust up, and then extends 18", with just about all of the straight part going into the 4" pipe. I cut the brass in three slots at the end to keep it centered in the 4" pipe, punched a bunch of holes in it, and wrapped it in stainless pot scrubbers from the dollar store. A poor man's glass pack muffler, if you can picture it.
Now, the exhaust goes out over the roof, and the sound is much better too.

With the venturi effect, you can feel the open bottom of the 4" pipe sucking in cool air. Above where the brass ends, the pipe gets hot, but still nowhere near as hot as the muffler, as so much cool air gets mixed in.

 

[philip_g]

You can actually convert just about any generator with generic kits. They essentially add an adapter plate along the intake so you can use NG/LPG...

I suppose if things got really bad then you're primed to run it off a wood gasifier too then....

 

[nehog]

...
Ultimately, I plan to put the generators on our back *covered* porch . ...http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/10/2_sisters_die_newark_carbon_mo.html

Personally I would strongly recommend not doing this. You would have to have a setup where the exhaust was release substantially above the roof line (much like any chimney) and a portable generator won't let you do that safely.

Don't fool yerselves, CO2 is poisonous to the human being...

CO2 will give substantial warning (you heart will race your respiration will climb) as the body does have the ability to monitor CO2 levels. And, high CO2 levels will drop rapidly once exposed to clear air (CO bonds more tightly to hemoglobin than oxygen, while CO2 barely sticks so to speak...)

 

[mobiledynamics]

How far OFF the covered porch would you say would okay then ? Is 5 Feet Sufficient in that the gas would drift and pool under the porch cover. Or are ya'll saying 20 feet....which I duuno - would make it 35-40 feet away from the house.

 

[nehog]

I would suggest 10 ft from the structure and as far as you can from the inclosed living space. So if your deck is 20 ft out from the house then that would total 30 ft. Wind blowing the wrong way can make a big difference. Also with it on the deck (I forgot this on the last reply) you also have the fire hazard risk.

 

[kywildcat]

I was hoping to keep my generator running in my detached garage so it stays out of the weather. I would keep the window open. As long as I open the doors before I go in, I think that will be alright. Opinions?????

 

[racingtadpole]

A 20lb propane tank will store forever and run the generator a very long time, not to mention if I can run a hose from my natural gas line to the generator, well it'll run forever.

Or until the utilities company turn the supply off.

I was hoping to keep my generator running in my detached garage so it stays out of the weather. I would keep the window open. As long as I open the doors before I go in, I think that will be alright. Opinions?????

You will not be alright. Carbon Monoxide is heavier and denser than air. Entirely possible you will walk in, collapse then asphyxiate. You would need to use mechanical ventilation and extraction to render the atmosphere safe.
When I did my last confined space entry refresher they told us that generally asphyxiation deaths like this usually happen in 2's or 3's. First person goes in and dies, second person then goes in to help and dies or second person calls third person and they both go in and die.
If you want to keep your generator out of the weather, build an enclosure for it outside that vents the exhaust to atmosphere.

 

[nehog]

I was hoping to keep my generator running in my detached garage so it stays out of the weather. I would keep the window open. As long as I open the doors before I go in, I think that will be alright. Opinions?????

Make 100% sure your life insurance is paid up, and covers suicide.

Detached or not, you'd need survival and breathing equipment to get in there.

For example, just starting my (2004) Dodge truck, and backing it out generates measurable CO levels. That's not running and sitting, and that's with the door (10x16) fully open. About 30 seconds, minute max.

A portable gasoline engine cannot be safely operated in any building. A permanently installed engine can, but only subject to some very stringent installation practices.

 

[HOTFR8]

You will not be alright. Carbon Monoxide is heavier and denser than air. Entirely possible you will walk in, collapse then asphyxiate. You would need to use mechanical ventilation and extraction to render the atmosphere safe.
When I did my last confined space entry refresher they told us that generally asphyxiation deaths like this usually happen in 2's or 3's. First person goes in and dies, second person then goes in to help and dies or second person calls third person and they both go in and die.
If you want to keep your generator out of the weather, build an enclosure for it that vents the exhaust to atmosphere.

Sounds like you and I have done the same confined space course.

People >Ventilate or better still run it outside.

 

[racingtadpole]

Sounds like you and I have done the same confined space course.

People >Ventilate or better still run it outside.

Test - Vent - Test - Monitor

 

[HOTFR8]

test - vent - test - monitor

cfa ?

 

[racingtadpole]

cfa ?

PM'd so we dont clog up the thread

 

[mikester]

Thank God this thread was started. The way it sounds there might have been some dead GJ members.

 

[Mr_fixit]

2000 watt sound pretty small. Why so small?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I was hoping to keep my generator running in my detached garage so it stays out of the weather. I would keep the window open. As long as I open the doors before I go in, I think that will be alright. Opinions?????

That is where I run mine and I don't have any windows !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Carbon Monoxide is heavier and denser than air. Entirely possible you will walk in, collapse then asphyxiate.

So you breath through your ankles ?

You would need to use mechanical ventilation and extraction to render the atmosphere safe.

We are talking about opening a 7'x16' garage door. Okay, maybe you should wait a couple of minutes before walking in and certainly not use a man door !

When I did my last confined space entry refresher ...

Okay, I have never had any formal training on "confined spaces", but I do know what you are referring to. Many confined spaces are pits where heavier than air gases can collect or have they small entrances/exits. I don't see how a garage could be considered a "confined space".


I used to work in large computer server rooms (the size of 3-5 tennis courts) that were protected by Cardox (CO2). I knew when the alarm sounded I had 30 seconds to get out and with all of the racks and occasionally missing floor tiles I knew I would need all of that time !

 

[theoldwizard1]

2000 watt sound pretty small. Why so small?

It is just the size that Honda decided to build and yes, it is quite small. They are fine for camping (without A/C).

Honda has a way to run them in parallel which doubles the capacity. They also make a 3000 watt unit.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thank God this thread was started. The way it sounds there might have been some dead GJ members.

There is common sense (NEVER run a generator in an attached garage) and then there is paranoia (comparing a typical 2 car detached garage to a confined space).

 

[Hmrhead]

I work in the Installed Sales Dept. for one of the big box home improvement stores and go out as the store representative on Standy by generator installation sales calls. Code for Michigan is a built in generator must be at least 18" away from the home and 5' away from any window or door that opens to a living space. I would keep most portables further away as they may not burn as clean as a built in.

 

[kywildcat]

There is common sense (NEVER run a generator in an attached garage) and then there is paranoia (comparing a typical 2 car detached garage to a confined space).

Mine is a three car garage, and unless somebody comes up with a fire hazard for runing the generator in there.......I think I'll be good. I know how to open doors before I go in!!!

 

[malibu101]

I don't own any gasoline vehicles, so keeping quantities of fuel around is troublesome as I can't rotate it through a vehicle and burn it to keep it fresh. .....
............
........

Say what?
I'm sorry for the wasteful post, but that was just an amazing thing to read on here.
But hey, this is the garage journal and people use their garages for many a varied and amazing things.

ABSOLUTLY no offense to phillip_g. Mother Earth loves you.

 

[casetractorfarmer]

It may sound dumb but is propane any safer to run indoors i meen thats why forklifts are propane right not that im going to try

 

[Nowater]

As already mentioned, carbon monoxide is way more deadly than carbon dioxide. Also the effects of CO last longer assuming it does not kill you. Yes propane is safer than gasoline as less CO is made, but one does not want to breathe that exhaust in concentrated form either.

Could you make it easier by just using an extension cord when you run the generator?

 

[Norcal]

It may sound dumb but is propane any safer to run indoors i meen thats why forklifts are propane right not that im going to try

Still asking for trouble.

 

[racingtadpole]

There is common sense (NEVER run a generator in an attached garage) and then there is paranoia (comparing a typical 2 car detached garage to a confined space).

We're not discussing confined spaces in particular, my point largely centres on an oxygen depleted atmosphere, a concept which you demonstrate on one hand that you understand by making reference to a CO2 protected computer room, and then on the other choose to deem it all as paranoia by attempting to claim the same rules dont apply in a different enclosed space with a different source of gas to deplete the oxygen in the atmosphere.
The point is that if you run a generator in a closed space the carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide WILL consume/displace the air available for you to breath. Once this happens you will collapse and if the concentration of CO/CO2 is high enough you WILL die.

At some point after a few hours of running, the generator will need re-fuelling. My guess is that the atmosphere inside the building regardless of wether its detached or not is going to be Oxygen depleted and unable to properly support human life, and hence potentially deadly. Why take the risk when you you dont need to.

 

[willymakeit]

Where can you get one of these kits for tri fuel or propane. I bought a older Miller welder/generator on a trailer and would like to do this.