Coats Rim Clamp Repair help needed

[MrCCKW]

Greetings,

As part of an equipment purchase deal I bought included was an older Coats 5030A. The machine has had a tough life and needs at least a transmission as the previous owner broke part of the transmission housing where it meets the rotary air coupling.

I am having a heck of a time getting the spider assembly off of the transmission shaft. I have removed the nut and am using a threaded puller but it will not budge. From the parts manuals it does not look like there is any allen head screw of bolt holding the splined shaft to the transmission shaft.

Any coats techs out there who can give me some pointers?

Anyone know of any reliable Coats repair places in the Boston/Southern NH area. The Coats distributor just tried to push me into buying a new one and was not interested in quoting me a service call even to get the spider off.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bill

 

[Danglerb]

Pictures might help

 

[MrCCKW]

Agreed on the pics.

Here is a diagram from the Parts Manual. The top side of of #30 is what is damaged. The air powered transmission (30) works but wobbles due to the case being busted at the output shaft.

I have to remove #19 off of #30 to get the transmission out of the housing. It is held on by bolt #17 which is already out. The distribution cup #22 just floats on the shaft and acts as a universal air distribution point for air to the turntable retainers. It is an O-ring sealed unit.

19 is on 30 by a splined shaft. It has been soaking in Aerokroil for months, with a brief interruption by soaking in diesel fuel. I have applied heat but am worried about to much on the cast iron spider #19. All the time of the soaking there has been a puller rigged to push the spider off the shaft.

It seems like there may be some type of bolt pinning the spider to the shaft but this parts diagram does not show it. The shaft is concealed by the distribution cup. I have no problem in destroying the cup as I will need a new one anyway if I repair.

Thanks for your help.

Bill

 

[gungatim]

How are you coming out? I am in the exact same boat, just bought a 5060AX and am going through all the cylinders and need to replace gritty bearings in the transmission. I cannot get that spyder off either. Been soaking with penetrating oil for 2 days. I don't want to heat with a torch as the distribution cup (#22) is plastic.

Any tire machine techs out there that can help us out??

 

[joecon]

It looks like theirs set screws in those pieces.

 

[Jbullfrog]

The top frame is die cast and probably fues to the shaft. Try filling it with water around the shaft and let it soak you did take the bolt out that is below the air cylinder that moves the jaws, rite?

 

[MrCCKW]

The retaining bolt that holds the yoke to the shaft #17 is out.

Any reason to use water over penetrating oil on a fused from rust shaft?

 

[gungatim]

no set screws, those are the air fittings for the lines to the cylinder in the pic. I am getting ready to try torching the inside of mine while wrapping wet rags around the nylon distribution cup to keep it from being destroyed hopefully. broke a puller on it last night and beat on it for a half hour with a ball peen hammer and still nothing. been soaking with PB Blaster for several days now...can't believe nobody has ever had one of thes apart for service before. Sorry for hijacking your thread MrCCKW...

 

[MrCCKW]

I don't consider this hijacking when you are working toward the same goal. I would pay a coats place to remove it but no one seems interested...must be that the Economy is too good?

I am trying to get the spider assembly off without destroying it. That is a costly item.

A wise old Mr. Fixit told me that the best rust eaters is the old "Environment Destroying" stuff. He joked that the new stuff is "watered down" to be safe, only you have to use 10 times as much of it so it probably is worse on the planet. He suggested trying straight Diesel and if unsuccessful brake fluid. Diesel did not work and I did not try brake fluid yet.

Please advise as to how your fire wrench works.

 

[Danglerb]

Best penetrant is ATF and acetone mixed 50/50, but if those two parts are put together with one hot and one cold, oil won't get in of any kind.

Have you tried to open it up from the other direction?

Pictures would likely help.

 

[gungatim]

Yeah I've had luck freeing seized pistons using a mix of acetone brake fluid and ATF mised together, I may have to get some acetone and try it before firing up the torches

 

[gungatim]

Have you tried unbolting the transmission and using a drift on the center shaft and pounding it out from the top? Seems like it is moving a bit that way but I don't want to bust my trams but since yours is already broken??

 

[gungatim]

Soaking with acetone and ATF now...

 

[gungatim]

Have you gotten #19 molded washer out? Mine won't budge, maybe that's hiding something?

 

[gungatim]

We'll with the help of my acetylene torch, I got that molded washer out. There are teeth underneath on the cast spider. Letting it cool before soaking again. Maybe there was loctite that the heat freed...

 

[gungatim]

There are two 1/8" holes on either side of the spider. Maybe filled with plastic like a gm u-joint?

 

[gungatim]

Never mind, there are tiny Allen set screws in them. Will remove if I can and report back if you haven't given up yet. This thing is kickin my a$$!

 

[MrCCKW]

Where on the spider? Up by the air fittings or down near the Distribution cup.

Please keep the information coming.

Thanks

 

[theoldwizard1]

Never mind, there are tiny Allen set screws in them. Will remove if I can and report back if you haven't given up yet. This thing is kickin my a$$!

Like that "black blob" pointing to the side of the bottom of the spider ?

 

[gungatim]

We'll I can't get photobucket to work on this pos iphone, email me and I will send pics, but I'm still at a loss , so I am about ready to part this out and buy a new Chinese machine and cut my losses. You'd think an American made machine would be designed for serviceability...

 

[gungatim]

Torched off the nylon piece but fumes are driving me out of the shop!

 

[theoldwizard1]

The top side of of #30 is what is damaged. The air powered transmission (30) works but wobbles due to the case being busted at the output shaft.

How badly is it broken ? Could a machine shop weld it up, rebore it and put a sleeve in it ?

I'll bet the same shop would figure out how to get the spider off, on way or another.

 

[gungatim]

It's nylon so no fixing, just have to replace the rotary coupling. Too bad I already bought the sealkit. A new coupling comes with the seals so have a set to sell now. Still haven't got it off. I am heating but I don't want to ruin the spider or trans so I can salvage them if need be.

 

[MrCCKW]

PM with email sent. The black blob is an indication of where to grease.

 

[gungatim]

I had to quit working on it Sat. night as the smoke from torching off the rotary coupling was too nasty. I am going to work on it some more tonight. Here is where I am at:


Plan of attack is to use a large bearing seperator under the spyder and let the trans hang so I can heat up the spyder around the splined shaft of the trans and beat the shaft down through the bottom. Sound like it will work?

Other option is to drill out those two holes on the top of the spyder and tap for larger bolts and use a puller. those holes appear to be drilled to access the horizontal holes for air flow through the coupling then just plugged.

you can see them in this pic

 

[gungatim]

I found this picture on the web from someone selling rebuilt coats rim clamps. it shows the trans shaft and appears that nothing else should be holding it onto the spyder aside from rust.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Other option is to drill out those two holes on the top of the spyder and tap for larger bolts and use a puller. those holes appear to be drilled to access the horizontal holes for air flow through the coupling then just plugged.

Instead of drilling those holes which have a purpose, how about 2 more 90° from them.

 

[gungatim]

I think the purpose of the holes was to connect the inside air passage from the holes in the neck to the holes in the yoke. Air is supplied around the neck in two seperate areas, one for the cylinder that moves the rim clamp, and one for the bead seat ports. I think when they cast it, they drilled all the horizontal holes and then drilled some vertical to connect them, then just plugged them with little allen screws. Just speculation, won't know until it gets apart. Now that the special washer is out and I see how large the shaft actually is, I can get a big socket on there to pound instead of a small punch down the threaded hole in the center. That should make a big difference.

 

[gungatim]

success!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[theoldwizard1]

success!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, what "black magic" did you use ?

 

[gungatim]

It was a 3pt. attack. Once the center bolt (use impact, it is torqued to 220 ft/lbs.) and the special washer (tapered) are out (had to heat the washer and use slide hammer), I used a good quality craftsman usa made large 2-jaw puller, the jaws fit under the 2 air fittings nicely (once you remove the fittings). Center the puller on the largest impact socket that will fit between the splines of the spider, I think Iused a 15/16". I tightened the puller as tight as I could with my impact wrench, then proceeded to heat around the bottom of the yoke to glowing orange. Be careful not to damage the yoke as it has to seal in 4 places with o-rings. Of course I already torched off the nylon rotary coupling (new ones are only $75).

Once heated, I began beating on the under side of the 4 corners of the spyder with my largest railroad ball peen hammer. every few swings I would put the impact on and get a turn or so on the puller. I had to re-heat 3 times, third time was the charm, It finally began moving with just the impact on the puller.

Once it is off there is a large shim-type washer under the yoke that was destroyed, and under that the transmission- which has no oil seal, just the sealed top ball bearing. I wil have to make a new seal out of felt and cut a new washer to replace what was damaged. THe rotary coupling covers all of that anyway, and it doesn't spin very fast so I don't think that will be an issue.

Trans comes out with 6 17mm bolts, they are long and go through a good bit of aluminum so soak them good so they don't snap in the housing.

All told I have about $900 into this so far: it was missing the air motor so I got a new one for $319 delivered, had to buy the 2 missing dump valves, new rotary coupling and seals, and rebuilt the top clamp cylinder. The bead breaker cylinder tested good, and I am hoping the foot valves work (they are freed up so crossed fingers).

will post pics to see how it all goes together.

 

[gungatim]

 

[gungatim]

 

[gungatim]

 

[gungatim]

The top air cylinder was fairly easy to rebuild, remove the 4 bolts connecting the top and bottom plates to the fiberglass/plastic cylinder. Each plate has an O-ring, and there is a large rubbeer coated steel 2-way seal on the end of the chrome shaft held on with a large washer and nut. In the end plate where the shaft protrudes there is a split nylon bushing that comes out and a rubber seal. The plates are aluminum and mine had quite a bit of corrosion under the bushing and seal on the end plate that I had to dremel off with a soft wire wheel. I did have to press the shaft out of the end plate on my press as the nylon busing was stuck pretty good, but once it moved it came out easily. Assembly was simple, just coat everything liberally with silicone lube before putting back to gether. I tested with an air gun and it seems to work just fine.

 

[gungatim]

Oh,one more thing, There is no way to drain the trans, so I sucked out the little bit of lube that was left in there and filled it with water to minimize fire hazard. Ther dipstick tube is a rubber hose with a plastic fitting pushed into the trans housing. I destroyed it with the torch but it should be a simple matter to press in a piece of copper pipe or something to attach a new piece of hose to.

Also, I need someone to measure the pulley diameter (small one) on the air motor so I can match up a new one (air motor is supplied by Gast w/o a pulley), and I don't have the stepped mounting plate the motor bolts to, so if someone could measure theirs for me so I can fab one up, that would be great!

Hopefully this thread helps someone else down the road as there is almost nothing on the 'net about rebuilding these.

And a million thanks to Bill for starting this thread in the first place!!

 

[theoldwizard1]

So the short story was a cast aluminum spider corroded on to a steel shaft.

Clean both parts well and use anti-seize when you re-assemble.

BTW, show us some more pics of your progress !

 

[gungatim]

Actually the spider is cast iron, not alum. It really didn't even seem corroded if you look at the pics, maybe it had loc-tite, but either way, it was a bear to get off. I have everything cleaned in the parts washer and the trans case bolts are out but haven't to seperate the two halves yet. They are stuck so a little heat around the seam will hopefully free it. The spider was polished with emory cloth and then buffed on the buffing wheel, hopefully it seals when I get the new rotary coupler delivered and installed.

 

[gungatim]

Bill requested a pic of the puller I used. Here you go. Also showing the washers and impact socket I used to fit the shaft.

 

[gungatim]

I managed to get the transmission apart, cleaned, lubed and put back together last night. Here is what they look like inside. 2 shims on each end of main shaft against the bearings. The cross shaft uses what look like regular tapered wheel bearings. Once cleaned and greased, it turns nice and smoothe with no noticible play.