Code Question

[Tscott]

I don't have access to the NEC code so I figured I'd throw my question out to all the electrician on here. I have a need to have 120 volt and 220 volt near each other for a project I am working on. In the area I already have a 4 receptacle 120 volt 20 amp EMT outlet box mounted on the wall. This box is fed with 3 runs of 12 gauge solid copper wire (1 black hot, 1 white neutral, and 1 green ground). Would it be kosher to pull a 4th conductor, probably a red second hot, to the existing box and then replace one set of 120 volt outlets with a single 220 volt outlet giving me both 120 volt and 220 volt in the same box? If so, can I install an additional single pole breaker in the load center and tie its' handle to the breaker that already feeds this box thereby allowing both breakers to trip should a short occur on one or both of the lines feeding the 22o volt outlet.

What do you think? I know it's possible, just don't know if it is code compliant?

Tom

 

[Tscott]

Also, assume wire size and breaker size will remain the same and will be adequate for the load. So the new breaker would also be a 20A single pole.

Tom

 

[pattenp]

Technically you can, code wise, don't know of a reason you can't. I suggest a new 20A 2 pole breaker instead of using two singles tied together. I'm sure some else will jump in on this if there is a code issue.

PS - What devices are you planning to run off this circuit?

 

[Tscott]

PS - What devices are you planning to run off this circuit?

I am building a parts washer. I got a great deal on an inline electric heater but it's 220 volt. So the plan is to have a 120 volt pump to move the fluid and then use 220 volt to run the heater to warm the water based fluid.

Tom

 

[rlitman]

Technically you can, code wise, don't know of a reason you can't. I suggest a new 20A 2 pole breaker instead of using two singles tied together. I'm sure some else will jump in on this if there is a code issue.

It is a code issue. You must use a 2 pole breaker for this, and you cannot just tie two breakers together. Otherwise, I don't see any issue.

 

[pattenp]

Do you know what the amp draw is on the heater and pump? 80% load or 16A is the max you can go on a 20A circuit.

 

[pattenp]

It is a code issue. You must use a 2 pole breaker for this, and you cannot just tie two breakers together. Otherwise, I don't see any issue.

Where does code say you can't use two single pole breakers with handle ties? Just curious.

Is this my answer? I think NEC 2011 240.8 is the code section for this.

 

[rlitman]

You can, IF you can find an "identified" handle tie made by the manufacturer and listed for use with the two particular breakers you're connecting. Good luck with that.
Anyway, a 2 pole breaker doesn't cost any more than two 1 pole breakers.

 

[slacker garage shop]

Oh dear not this with the handle ties again.
if I'm understanding the original question right then NO you can't do that. The way I read what you want to do is pull a 4th wire (red) and use the red and black for the 220 but tap the black for the hot lead of the 120?? You can not do that. Leave what's there and just pull 2 new wires for the 220. You can have up to 8 current carrying conductors without derating assuming it's #12 on a 20 amp breaker.
And for the nec gurus I know you do still derate but then you cp to the next standard breaker which is still 20 amps.

 

[pattenp]

Not that I don't believe you, but you aren't explaining why not? Is this a code no no?

I do agree with what you're saying is the best thing to do.

Oh dear not this with the handle ties again.
if I'm understanding the original question right then NO you can't do that. The way I read what you want to do is pull a 4th wire (red) and use the red and black for the 220 but tap the black for the hot lead of the 120?? You can not do that. Leave what's there and just pull 2 new wires for the 220. You can have up to 8 current carrying conductors without derating assuming it's #12 on a 20 amp breaker.
And for the nec gurus I know you do still derate but then you cp to the next standard breaker which is still 20 amps.

 

[Aceman]

The way I read what you want to do is pull a 4th wire (red) and use the red and black for the 220 but tap the black for the hot lead of the 120?? You can not do that.

I find it amusing you think it's okay to leave buried romex in one of the other threads but then you tell this guy he can't legally have a 120v and 240v recep on the same wires? If they're both rated 20 amp, what's the problem?

When was the last time you actually cracked open the code book? Or took a continuing ed class?

What I find most disappointing is that the electricians and code savvy diy'ers on here are already fighting an uphill battle just trying to keep the right info in front of the other members. Then a guy comes along, a so-called professional electrician, who seems not to care whether his info is correct or not when he gives advice.

If you're a professional, why don't you try acting like it?

You may think I'm a d**k, but at least I try to get it right.

It's just never ending....

From another thread:

NM-B is not suitable for underground.

Its in conduit. Yes it does not comply with NEC but its fine. I've seen worse things done by people in my 20 years as a electrician.

 

[slacker garage shop]

Your right you are a ****. I live in real life. You want to bring up that post then fine. I said IT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH CODE but in real life you know damn well it isn't a issue. In real life it WOULD be a issue pulling 120 off a 220 circuit. What's your damn problem? Let me guess your a inspector that's never picked up a tool right?
My advice is just that ADVICE. Nobody has to listen but I certainly to give it to be attacked by you. I don't claim to be a professional but I do claim to have over 20 years LICENSED. Now that i think about it I guess again, your a 3rd years apprentice right?

 

[slacker garage shop]

Still reading your worthless post. Quote one thing I have ever posted on here that isn't up to code.

 

[pattenp]

I hope you two guys don't live close to each other. I can feel the tension.

 

[slacker garage shop]

Never mind. After looking through your past post I see your one of those guys. There's one on every Forum. I guess your that guy over here.

 

[Aceman]

In real life it WOULD be a issue pulling 120 off a 220 circuit.

He'd have 2 hots, a neutral, and ground to use. So what's the issue?

 

[pattenp]

He'd have 2 hots, a neutral, and ground to use. So what's the issue?

This is what I want to know too. I'm not here to poke at anyone. Just want to learn.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Basically, what Tom is wanting to do is create a Multi-Wire Branch Circuit (MWBC) which we just argued about the other day in another thread.

I agree that the use of a difficult to near impossible to find handle tie is absurd when you can purchase a double pole breaker for $7 or $8 and save the single poles for some other use.

I find it interesting that the last revision of this code section required the common trip breaker (para (B)) but they left in para (C) which allows only line to neutral loads (120v) unless a common trip breaker is used. The revision to para (B) effectively eliminated para (C) and its line to neutral only requirement as Exception 2. will always be in effect.

What this is saying is that you CAN have both line to neutral (120v) and line to line (240v) usage on the same MWBC provided you use a common trip double pole breaker, and not a handle tied breaker pair. (see 215.(B)(1))

The only thing Tom has to be careful of, is to be sure and pigtail the neutral so that the removal of a receptacle (temporarily or permanently) would not interrupt the neutral circuit from one end to the other. (ie. do not go to a receptacle then jump to another receptacle with the neutral, rather, wirenut the neutral wires together with a pigtail that runs to the receptacle.) 300.13(B)

But you knew that already from THIS long and winding thread from a week ago.

Here is the post I made quoting the code section.

210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits.
(A) General. Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be permitted as multiwire circuits. A multiwire circuit shall be permitted to be considered as multiple circuits. All conductors of a multiwire branch circuit shall originate from the same panelboard or similar distribution equipment.

Informational Note: A 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected power system used to supply power to nonlinear loads may necessitate that the power system design allow for the possibility of high harmonic currents on the neutral conductor.

(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where
the branch circuit originates.

Informational Note: See 240.15(B) for information on the
use of single-pole circuit breakers as the disconnecting
means.

(C) Line-to-Neutral Loads. Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads.

Exception No. 1: A multiwire branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.

Exception No. 2: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simultaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device.

Informational Note: See 300.13(B) for continuity of grounded conductor on multiwire circuits.

(D) Grouping. The ungrounded and grounded circuit conductors of each multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped by cable ties or similar means in at least one location within
the panelboard or other point of origination.

Exception: The requirement for grouping shall not apply if the circuit enters from a cable or raceway unique to the circuit that makes the grouping obvious.

The above is telling us to use common trip, but is not specific as to how. The informational note it just that, information as to where to find other information, but is not mandatory in nature. Otherwise it would not be called an informational note.

240.15 Ungrounded Conductors.

(A) Overcurrent Device Required. A fuse or an overcurrent trip unit of a circuit breaker shall be connected in series with each ungrounded conductor. A combination of a current transformer and overcurrent relay shall be considered equivalent to an overcurrent trip unit.

Informational Note: For motor circuits, see Parts III, IV, V, and XI of Article 430.

(B) Circuit Breaker as Overcurrent Device. Circuit breakers shall open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit both manually and automatically unless otherwise permitted in
240.15(B)(1), (B)(2), (B)(3), and (B)(4).

(1) Multiwire Branch Circuits. Individual single-pole circuit breakers, with identified handle ties, shall be permitted as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of multiwire branch circuits that serve only single-phase line-to-neutral loads.

This is telling the inspector that separate single pole breakers with identified handle ties are OK, but it is not mandating the use of separate breakers. (as opposed to using a double pole breaker)

ARTICLE 100, Definitions

Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as
suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment,
application, and so forth, where described in a particular
Code requirement.

Informational Note: Some examples of ways to determine
suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment,
or application include investigations by a qualified testing
laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other
organizations concerned with product evaluation.

 

[brewchief]

Would it be easier to pull one more hot and switch the receptacles out for a 20 amp 120/240v plug? One cord to the parts washer instead of two(would there be a code issue having two cords powering the parts washer, even if they are on the same breaker?).

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Would it be easier to pull one more hot and switch the receptacles out for a 20 amp 120/240v plug? One cord to the parts washer instead of two(would there be a code issue having two cords powering the parts washer, even if they are on the same breaker?).

Sometimes we cannot see the forest for the trees.............

Indeed, a NEMA 14-20 4 wire receptacle and appropriate plug and cord to a box on the parts washer would be more sensible and appropriate I suspect.

Charles

 

[ishiboo]

Your right you are a ****. I live in real life. You want to bring up that post then fine. I said IT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH CODE but in real life you know damn well it isn't a issue. In real life it WOULD be a issue pulling 120 off a 220 circuit. What's your damn problem? Let me guess your a inspector that's never picked up a tool right?
My advice is just that ADVICE. Nobody has to listen but I certainly to give it to be attacked by you. I don't claim to be a professional but I do claim to have over 20 years LICENSED. Now that i think about it I guess again, your a 3rd years apprentice right?

Relax, breathe, etc. When you give ADVICE on the Internet, you open yourself up for those who disagree who offer their own OPINION. No need to get upset, either reply with a constructive argument or just move on.

Years experience/etc. is irrelevant... the Internet is vast. There are people on this forum who know more about electrical having never been an electrician than you, and electricians who have been doing it for 40 years who know half what you do

Personally, I would take 120v/240v recaps off the same set of wires before I would run NMB in an underground conduit. Why do you think its an issue in the real world?

 

[Norcal]

The only issue I see is a lack of GFCI protection on the 120V receptacle, a 125/250V rated 4-wire receptacle is a good choice also.

 

[sr4440]

wow since he is building it, i would just get a 220 volt pump and be done with it.

Joe

 

[Tscott]

OK, had no idea I was gonna stir that one up. Anyway, it sound like I am OK to do as I proposed as long as I use a 2 pole breaker. The details of the parts washer are not clear yet. I should have all the parts int he next few days so I can verify loads and make sure it is all gonna cooperate together. I'll detail everything in my build thread in free parking.

Tom