Code requirement for grounds in plastic box

[jesse82nc]

So I have been building a large attached garage and laundry room. So far all my inspections have been great and passed. Today they came for the rough-in and failed the electrical. I'm not stranger to electrical, but I will admit that I may have overlooked something in the code book. My garage has a completely full 90 Amp sub panel, and he said everything looked good in there. But where he said I failed, was that I used wire nuts and pigtails for attaching my grounds together and then attaching the ground to the outlet/switches in my boxes. He said that was not allowed by code. I cannot find anything that says you cannot use wire nuts and pigtails in the code book though. It's also how every house I have ever lived in was wired. Did something change recently? What am I missing? He kept mentioning some special connector I needed to use, but I couldn't quite understand him with his accent lol. It sounded like he was saying code required it to be crimped. I asked about using the Greenies, and he said those were fine. But I don't get what is different between using Greenie wire nuts and regular wire nuts that are the correct size.

Can someone clarify what he might have been referring to?

Here's a link to some photos of my garage I have been working on for the past 2 years - https://goo.gl/photos/UAuLBwuhDGFvnc9z7 - I did about 90% of the work myself.

Thanks

 

[simpler=better]

He's probably mixed up, and you've got to courses of action:

#1-Install greenies and make him happy

#2-Ask him to quote the code# that you're violating. If he can't, then you can fight to get it approved.


For $10, I'd go with #1.


Cool tire carrier on the truck!

 

[pattenp]

There is no NEC rule that excludes standard wirenuts from being used to connect ground wires. See NEC 250.148(A) Refs. 110.14(B)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The inspector doesnt know what hes talking about...

Ask him for the applicable code that u supposedly violated!!

 

[Cmreschke]

Sounds like he wants to see Buchanon sleeves. I to would ask for a code reference. Maybe he just doesn't know.

 

[jesse82nc]

Thanks guys, I got some greenies, it's just a pain since there's like 20+ boxes to pull apart now and redo. Just wasting my time.

If you look through my photos, there's one of my subpanel for the garage. You can pretty easily tell that I am no stranger to working with electrical I thought this guy was off his rocker, I asked him what the difference was between what I had now and using the greenies, and he said he really wasn't sure.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks guys, I got some greenies, it's just a pain since there's like 20+ boxes to pull apart now and redo. Just wasting my time.

If you look through my photos, there's one of my subpanel for the garage. You can pretty easily tell that I am no stranger to working with electrical I thought this guy was off his rocker, I asked him what the difference was between what I had now and using the greenies, and he said he really wasn't sure.

well theres your sign.

Before u go to all the trouble, i would ask for the code!!

 

[Cmreschke]

Also I don't believe the greens will work as a replacement for let's say reds. If memory serves the greens have a hole in the center which is designed to have the pigtail go through the hole. So you need a long un cut tail with the rest of the grounds twisted around it. If you've already pigtailed and capped them once you shouldn't have the long tail that I'm thinking of. So those I don't think will work. Hope I'm mistaken though.

 

[Mustang51js]

Thats the problem when you get guys that take a test and become inspectors. It should be required to work in the feild for 5 years before you can be an inspector. When i did my code update classes,the intructor said he was seeing plumbing and building inspectors taking the electrical tests and becoming electrical inspectors,and they have no clue

 

[jesse82nc]

Also I don't believe the greens will work as a replacement for let's say reds. If memory serves the greens have a hole in the center which is designed to have the pigtail go through the hole. So you need a long un cut tail with the rest of the grounds twisted around it. If you've already pigtailed and capped them once you shouldn't have the long tail that I'm thinking of. So those I don't think will work. Hope I'm mistaken though.

They do have a hole in the top and I don't have one that is longer, so what if I just use them as regular caps? Maybe it will make him happy to see green inside the box at least lol.

 

[Mustang51js]

If you have the time i would make him give you the code reference,maybe make him study up on the code. I understand you cant know everything,but this is basic electric stuff he doesnt know about

 

[Cmreschke]

Well that's just plain stupid then now isn't it. Is he gonna require white wire nuts for the neutrals?

 

[Cmreschke]

Challenge it and make him give a reference.

 

[Speedy Petey]

NO WAY I'd change all them. He is out of his mind and making a power play that he knows will fail. He is relying on the fact that he thinks you know less then him or that you will not question him.

If it was one or two maybe, but 20 or more? No way.
Some will say just do it so he won't mess with you later, but I say this is what makes/perpetuates power mad unreasonable inspectors.

 

[kkenney]

Most wire connectors are (UL listed 486C) when splicing grounds they need to be (UL listed 467) The splices of grounds need to be able to carry the fault current

 

[kkenney]

They are required to be listed for grounding and bonding,these connectors are tested and listed to UL 467

 

[Cmreschke]

Most wire connectors are (UL listed 486C) when splicing grounds they need to be (UL listed 467) The splices of grounds need to be able to carry the fault current

Are standard wire nuts then not allowed to be used on thhn stranded wire?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Most wire connectors are (UL listed 486C) when splicing grounds they need to be (UL listed 467) The splices of grounds need to be able to carry the fault current

How would that be any different that a line-to-neutral fault?

 

[kkenney]

Has nothing to do with type of wire,The code says for grounding and bonding the type of connection needs to be tested and listed to UL 467

 

[Cmreschke]

Has nothing to do with type of wire,The code says for grounding and bonding the type of connection needs to be tested and listed to UL 467

Where does the code say this?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Has nothing to do with type of wire,The code says for grounding and bonding the type of connection needs to be tested and listed to UL 467

Where did I say anything about the type of wire???

I was asking how a line-to-neutral fault is any different than a line-to-ground fault. What does your data say?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Where did I say anything about the type of wire???

I was asking how a line-to-neutral fault is any different than a line-to-ground fault. What does your data say?

kkenney was responding to cmreschke's comment...

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The inspector doesnt know what hes talking about...

Ask him for the applicable code that u supposedly violated!!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Thats the problem when you get guys that take a test and become inspectors. It should be required to work in the feild for 5 years before you can be an inspector. When i did my code update classes,the intructor said he was seeing plumbing and building inspectors taking the electrical tests and becoming electrical inspectors,and they have no clue

To be an inspector in omaha you need to hold atleast a journeymans license for the trade your inspecting.
Years ago I had an electrical inspector in carter lake iowa point at something and ask me what it was,I told him thats a gfi!

 

[checkthisout]

This is easy. When you fail an inspection, they give you a sheet of paper telling you the code you violated.

Which code are you out of compliance with?

 

[jesse82nc]

This is easy. When you fail an inspection, they give you a sheet of paper telling you the code you violated.

Which code are you out of compliance with?

They didn't give me any paper, just told me to call back after I fixed it for a reinspection of the electrical.

 

[Cmreschke]

Money grab! Your call goes like this ,"well be happy to come back out and reinspect, just pay the 50 dollar reinspection fee and we'll send him right out".

 

[kkenney]

Equipment grounding conductors must be spliced together with a device listed for the purpose [110.14(B) and 250.148(A). Listed is the key word. If the wire connector you used is Listed for UL 467 prove it to the inspector.When an installer uses something the inspector knows nothing about and is unfamiliar, the burden of compliance now is on the INSTALLER and NOT the inspector.

 

[Cmreschke]

Equipment grounding conductors must be spliced together with a device listed for the purpose [110.14(B) and 250.148(A). Listed is the key word. If the wire connector you used is Listed for UL 467 prove it to the inspector.When an installer uses something the inspector knows nothing about and is unfamiliar, the burden of compliance now is on the INSTALLER and NOT the inspector.

I really need to get an updated code book. Mine doesn't list anything about UL 467. Hmmmm.
So with that being said if an electrical inspector knows nothing about a wire nut, which is probably the most common of parts in the electrical industry, than the inspector should not be an inspector.

Honestly don't think the inspector is getting to in to the UL book. I think hes questioning the use of wire nuts on a bare solid ground. He is probably only used to seeing a crimp on copper sleeve. What he sees is different so it must be wrong. That is incorrect on its own merit. I would definitely want a citation.

 

[kkenney]

The word listed for the purpose is key.So there for the device or connector being used most be UL 467, most wire connectors, other then green only listed for UL 486C. The intent of the UL listing is that the type of connection used must be able to handle fault current. There are other terminations that meet or exceed UL 467.

 

[Wirepuller]

He's wrong. I use pigtails 99% of the time nothing prohibits it. There's one inspector local to me that makes me use buchanans and a 4 way crimper. If you have the time fight him, if not just do what he wants.

 

[kkenney]

Wirepuller. There is no problem with pigtails,Its based on how you make the connection.The reason why the inspector is saying to use buchanans crimps, is that they are one of the methods that are listed for grounding.

 

[kkenney]

You have to pay attention to how things are listed. One example that i see often is when they install more then one wire under a lug, that is only designed and listed for one conductor. Just because the lug is larger enough to except multiple conductors,does not make it right. It was never UL listed for that application.

 

[theoldwizard1]

One example that i see often is when they install more then one wire under a lug, that is only designed and listed for one conductor.

My knowledge of residential wiring came from repairing/upgrading homes typically built just after WW-II up to current day.

One thing I find "unusual" is that they teach apprentices to add a pigtail inside of box when daisy chaining multiple outlets. Old school would place the "incoming" conductor on one screw the "outgoing" conductor on the other screw. If then outgoing conductor was going to be split, one of the conductors would be left long and a short piece of insulation removed about 6" from the end. This bared area would be wrapped around the screw and the rest was used as a pigtail to the other conductors. You don't see that any more these days !

Of course, older residential wiring that had ground conductors would jut tie to the metal box and let the mounting screw provide the connection to the ground pin.

 

[Cmreschke]

He's wrong. I use pigtails 99% of the time nothing prohibits it. There's one inspector local to me that makes me use buchanans and a 4 way crimper. If you have the time fight him, if not just do what he wants.

The 4 way crimper is specifically for the Buchanon brand sleeve. There are other manufacturers of crimp sleeves made of copper coated steel that you can crimp with a standard crimper. How would your inspector view those?

 

[Wirepuller]

No clue, not my problem. He's a pain in the ***. I deal with it.

 

[kkenney]

if the crimp sleeves are listed for grounding, the manufacturer will list the crimper that are tested with there sleeves to achieve there UL listing

 

[Cmreschke]

They don't need to be listed for grounding. They need to be listed for splicing.

 

[kkenney]

cmreschke, Correct splicing of current carrying (hot and neutral) conductors are are listed differently.

 

[kkenney]

The 'ground' wire is a safety mechanism to allow the breaker to open when a ground fault is present. Neutral is a current carrying conductor. two different things