Colombian Keen Kutter Leg Vice

[Beauregard]

Greetings. This popped up on the local social media sales site.
Seller claims:
________
"This is an extremely rare “Keen Kutter,” leg vise. According to the “Anvilfire” website very few of these were made by the Colombian vise company. They date back to the 1870’s. This is an older vintage version because it has the “E” in “E.C. Simmons,” on the mounting plate. In later versions the “E,” was removed so the mounting bolt would not hit it. The jaws are 4” wide. "
________

The condition seems to be okay. He's asking $500, but it's been on the site for 37 weeks.
It seems to be a nice collectible if bought right, but I have no idea what a fair price would be.

Does anyone have any information or thoughts on this? I would envision building a display stand the bracket would fasten to. Should it be cleaned up and restored, or retain the patina?
Thanks for any thoughts or comments.

 

[1982fxr]

Super cool. Never seen one before.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Super cool.

Interesting backstory. It's odd that anyone would have anything made by design - planning the mounting plate and making the branding die for the mounting plate - in a way that would require spoiling the branding (all corners are drilled through for the mounting bolts, the "E.", the last "S" in SIMMONS, the "N" in KEEN, and the "K" and "R" in KUTTER).

As for the price, as you know, that often varies by region. I can tell you that you can't touch an antique leg vise in good condition around here for less than $200, regardless of the branding, and they are often not branded or obscure. And that's at a very good flea market where I regularly see antique vises and anvils and blacksmith tools. Based only on that experience, $500 doesn't shock me for a supposedly rare KEEN KUTTER. Then again, you are shrewd to notice it has been sitting. Seems ripe for a healthy offer.

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

It looks as though it is missing the spring. Not complete.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Well spotted, Mike. Also, is that a snot weld holding the mounting plate to the unit?

 

[3baygarage]

Here is someone talking about the same thing.

Their logos are heavily reproduced. I'm not a vise expert or well versed on Keen Kitter products but check it out first.

https://www.anvilfire.com/vises/af_vises_005.php

 

[RTM]

I have my doubts about the authenticity of the KK anchor plate. The vise is not listed in my KK collectors guide, either as real item, or as a known fake, which means little, but it was data collected from many years of catalogs (supposedly). KK was a highly faked brand.

As Lugz noted, it looks like a poor weld holding the KK plate on. Plus the “spoiling the logo” with the mounting holes just Screams NO to me.

I’d be willing to bet a $ or two someone with metallurgical skills could tell us that’s a much later weld than 1870s, same with the “shortened name” plate, cast in the 1980s. Someone with skill might say it is shrunk down by x% from the splash guard from a grinder wheel someone found.

Don’t pay extra for the story.

¢¢

 

[Beauregard]

It is missing a few key pieces, as Mike mentioned. I too noticed the weld on the mounting bracket. This could be nefarious, or simply a repair done years ago. These were made to be abused and beaten.

The seller is less than stellar in the communication side of things. Lots of one-word responses. To be fair, this needs to be judged in person with hands-on inspection. A big plus if the seller has an interesting backstory, such as he inherited it from a blacksmith grandpa.

It's about 50 miles from me. If I can get more than one syllable response from the seller, I may go take a look and make an offer. An offer that will reflect the missing parts and repairs. It looks to be more of a display than a working tool.

Thanks for all of your thoughts and insight. I'll follow up.
Bo

 

[Beauregard]

Mike, do you have any thoughts on what's missing from the slot on the mounting bracket that holds the mounting plate? It would seem that this part would be adjustable, and the missing piece is the locking mechanism.

 

[Joe Huld]

fast pay A++++++

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

Mike, do you have any thoughts on what's missing from the slot on the mounting bracket that holds the mounting plate? It would seem that this part would be adjustable, and the missing piece is the locking mechanism.

I went out to take a pic of forgery. But after reading 3-bays article I think it is real, Why would they go through so much to forge, other than just replacing the bench plate. I may have a spring that would work. I will get a pic of the spring. I would buy it. But not at that price. And tell him it is not complete. That means a lot.

 

[Beauregard]

Thanks, Mike.

 

[brockmub]

I can tell you that you can't touch an antique leg vise in good condition around here for less than $200, regardless of the branding, and they are often not branded or obscure.

I'm sorry... what? Looks like I'm gonna start shipping leg vises to the East coast.

 

[Beauregard]

On a side note, how would one date the weld repair? How would a weld from the early 1900s differ in looks from a modern weld or braze? I know counterfeiters do weird things to "age" their work.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Looks like I'm gonna start shipping leg vises to the East coast.

Forge blowers, hot boxes, tongs, and anvils are also crazy here.

Here is someone talking about the same thing.

I suspect that's the same Anglefire blog page that the seller is referring to.

Without making any comment on the authenticity, this whole thing just keeps getting odder and odder and funnier and funnier for me. That ostensibly second version is worse than the ostensibly first version that Beau is looking at! Just for the sake of my point, let's say it is real. Limited production. Simmons, in league with Columbian, upset that their name is ruined by the bolts, went through the trouble and expense of building a new die... and their grand solution was to remove the "E." and last "S."?! They actually considered their brand name deliberately rendered as "C. SIMMON" (it looks ridiculous!) an improvement on "E.C. SIMMONS" with the "E" and "S" partially drilled through? When the "K" and "R" in "KUTTER" were still going to be drilled through? How about making the mounting plate in the same shape but a little wider to accommodate the bolts!

 

[RTM]

On a side note, how would one date the weld repair? How would a weld from the early 1900s differ in looks from a modern weld or braze? I know counterfeiters do weird things to "age" their work.

I would think that a weld from 1870 would be a forge weld, not a stick or MIG weld. I can’t describe it, but look at some home blacksmith type pages.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

This does remind me of a story. I bought a Keen Kutter grinding stone at an old farm supply store going out of business sale a couple years ago just to cannibalize the resting plate off of it. The stone was chipped and the whole apparatus was falling apart with rust. As I was prepared to heft it into my truck, a guy was admiring it, and when I told him I only wanted the plate, he asked if he could have the rest of it. He was going to paint it red and stick it in his yard. I sold it to him for half what I paid, as I recall, and didn't have to haul it home and scrap it.

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

I would think that a weld from 1870 would be a forge weld, not a stick or MIG weld. I can’t describe it, but look at some home blacksmith type pages.

Yea I say what your seeing. They would not have that kind of weld. The bench plate looks as though it could of been added later. But it does look like a Columbian made for Simmons and others.

I would have to see it up front before making a decision. Here is the spring which could be made of auto leaf spring very easy.

 

[RTM]

This does remind me of a story. I bought a Keen Kutter grinding stone at an old farm supply store going out of business sale a couple years ago just to cannibalize the resting plate off of it.

Someone with skill might say it is shrunk down by x% from the splash guard from a grinder wheel someone found.

I remembered your story.

 

[brockmub]

Forge blowers, hot boxes, tongs, and anvils are also crazy here.

I agree that the Keen Kutter is pretty rare, never seen one. The leg vises are quite common here in the northern plains, though anvils are pretty crazy in price. I'll keep my eye out for Keen Kutter stuff and leg vises.

 

[Targa68]

Could this,


once have been made from this?:


What are the sizes?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The leg vises are quite common here in the northern plains,

I wouldn't call them rare here. I see a handful in the wild (again, mainly flea markets) every year. The high price they command here doesn't seem to be a function of supply, but demand. The last one I saw was broken and the guy still got $80 for it!

Could this,...[ ]...once have been made from this?:..[ ]...What are the sizes?

That's what @RTM was suggesting upthread. After I posted it, he prodded me here...

I remembered your story.

Which I had missed in his earlier post.

FWIW, the grindstone splash guard is 8" x 3-5/8". The logo itself is 4-1/2" x 3-5/8". It is malleable iron, not steel, and cast, not forged. Also has a very slight curvature to it. And they are not identical. Interesting idea, though.

 

[strutaeng]

Colombian? Sofia Vergara would approve...

Sorry, I just had to.

 

[Beauregard]

Well, that's the quandary; It's missing key parts that would let it be useable as a working vise and has an unfortunate weld that attaches the key collectible part to the vise. Not a lot of upside here, especially at $500.
The seller says he took this in on trade for an anvil and other blacksmithing tools, so he doesn't have a lot of cash invested.

 

[shanny19]

^^I think that unfortunate weld is the ONLY thing that connects the key collectible part to the vise.

 

[2oolhound]

1st off I'll say I consider a 4" leg vise to be in the small category. 5" & 6" are medium or normal and 7" and up are large. I bought a 3 1/2 " leg vise last year for $25 complete.

The weld is not a forge weld. You can see the bead along the sides and front edge. It looks like it was arc welded and a scab was placed on top to strengthen it more (because of poor welds).

In this photo you can see the 2 steel bars that lock the vise to the mount plate labeled A & B. You slide A in 1st through the slot and then bring the side with the 2 raised tabs up against the leg so it can't slide in and out. Then the straight piece (B) that is actually wedge shaped, slides in beside A and gets hammered tight wedging up the mount tight ready for use.



You can see the spring in this photo too. The flat end goes inside the U-collar (that has the slots that align with the mount slot) and the lower end has the little ears that keep it in place against the dynamic jaw near the pivot area.


The 2nd photo shows the 2 clamping pieces in place through the slots and you can see the top of the spring trapped by the U collar.

 

[Beauregard]

Wow, 2oolhound, great write-up.
I've been around smithing tools just enough to know I don't know that much.

I highly recommend to others, before you buy expensive iron do-da's and antique tools to run it by the guys here first. What a great site. Thanks to everyone who responded.

 

[leg17]

1st off I'll say I consider a 4" leg vise to be in the small category. 5" & 6" are medium or normal and 7" and up are large. I bought a 3 1/2 " leg vise last year for $25 complete.

The weld is not a forge weld. You can see the bead along the sides and front edge. It looks like it was arc welded and a scab was placed on top to strengthen it more (because of poor welds).

In this photo you can see the 2 steel bars that lock the vise to the mount plate labeled A & B. You slide A in 1st through the slot and then bring the side with the 2 raised tabs up against the leg so it can't slide in and out. Then the straight piece (B) that is actually wedge shaped, slides in beside A and gets hammered tight wedging up the mount tight ready for use.



You can see the spring in this photo too. The flat end goes inside the U-collar (that has the slots that align with the mount slot) and the lower end has the little ears that keep it in place against the dynamic jaw near the pivot area.


The 2nd photo shows the 2 clamping pieces in place through the slots and you can see the top of the spring trapped by the U collar.

Is this a Peter Wright?

 

[cretedog]

Here's mine. 5-1/4" jaws. Have been gonna make a spring for 20 years. Maybe this winter...

 

[2oolhound]

Wow, 2oolhound, great write-up.

Thanks Beau, it's just payback from all the help and education I've gotten here in the last 10 years.

Is this a Peter Wright?

No, there are zero markings on this vise. It's got a weird little pin ate the pivot for the dynamic jaw instead of the usual bolt, kinda unique.

Here's mine. 5-1/4" jaws. Have been gonna make a spring for 20 years. Maybe this winter...

Nice vise, thanks for posting. It makes the OP's look legit. And good photo of the locking pins or plates, bars???. It shows they are both tapered.

 

[Healy62]

Looks great wish it was mine!

 

[Ricky Joe]

fast pay A++++++

Thanks Beau, it's just payback from all the help and education I've gotten here in the last 10 years.

No, there are zero markings on this vise. It's got a weird little pin ate the pivot for the dynamic jaw instead of the usual bolt, kinda unique.

Nice vise, thanks for posting. It makes the OP's look legit. And good photo of the locking pins or plates, bars???. It shows they are both tapered.

Actually there are many Peter Wrights with no name or markings. Peter Wright made post vises for Sears around the turn of the century, and no markings were used. Probably made for others, also. Often a Peter Wright is identified by style of construction. I’ve got an unmarked Peter Wright. They are actually fairly common. Mine is complete and perfect except the lever is bent. I paid $100 for it, which was asking price, reduced after having languished on the market for $125 for several weeks at least.