Combative Neighbors

[idoine in toronto]

I looks like there are poor zoning regulations in your area that allowed your neighbors home to be built in that location. They would be facing the same loss of view if you had decided to build a privacy fence around your back yard.

With that said though it does appear that you could have modified your layout to still work and keep from boxing in their property and blocking their view. Can't really blame them for not giving you an easement on their driveway either, but now that decision has come back to haunt them.

It's to bad that a better solution wasn't reached that would have worked out for both parties.

Hard to imagine that rotating the shop and locating it in the upper corner of your lot wouldn't have worked.

 

[DuluthMN]

What I see is that Dougmac's heart was in the right place, and now so is his shop.

Totally Agreed... This is a great example of why you should get to know your neighbors. Our neighbors happen to be smokin hot lesbians, now just maybe my wife will understand why I offer to go over every week and MOW (no pun intended) their grass!

 

[dougmac]

I looks like there are poor zoning regulations in your area that allowed your neighbors home to be built in that location. They would be facing the same loss of view if you had decided to build a privacy fence around your back yard.

With that said though it does appear that you could have modified your layout to still work and keep from boxing in their property and blocking their view. Can't really blame them for not giving you an easement on their driveway either, but now that decision has come back to haunt them.

It's to bad that a better solution wasn't reached that would have worked out for both parties.

Hard to imagine that rotating the shop and locating it in the upper corner of your lot wouldn't have worked.

Part of the problem with your solution is that it does not take into account for the side and rear setbacks and the impossibility of trying to park a trailer in it....

This is a repeat that I posted earlier ........

The reason is that I would have not been able to get in to it.....

The property line is at the edge of the concrete..... so move 5 feet south of that for the building. The the shear wall on the side of the bay needs to be 3 feet wide.... so the opening of the door of the first bay would start 8 feet from the edge of the concrete. That means backing my trailer to the left and then back to the right to get it in the stall..... truck and trailer are combined 45 feet long. There would only be 30 feet from the deck to the front of the shop and I would have had to made a hard left turn in a 12 foot wide driveway. Then cut the trailer fully back to the right to get it in the bay. It would have been completely impossible.....

There are other reasons, but that one was the deal breaker.

Does this make it clearer?

 

[LAROKE]

I am amazed by the number of people in this discussion that do not seem to understand the concept of "property rights".

The clueless neighbors bear total responsibility for their situation and dougmac is being criticized for not bending over enough to please them. That's just nuts!

 

[idoine in toronto]

Part of the problem with your solution is that it does not take into account for the side and rear setbacks and the impossibility of trying to park a trailer in it....

This is a repeat that I posted earlier ........

The reason is that I would have not been able to get in to it.....

The property line is at the edge of the concrete..... so move 5 feet south of that for the building. The the shear wall on the side of the bay needs to be 3 feet wide.... so the opening of the door of the first bay would start 8 feet from the edge of the concrete. That means backing my trailer to the left and then back to the right to get it in the stall..... truck and trailer are combined 45 feet long. There would only be 30 feet from the deck to the front of the shop and I would have had to had to made a hard left turn in a 12 foot wide driveway. Then cut the trailer fully back to the right to get it in the bay. It would have been completely impossible.....

There are other reasons, but that one was the deal breaker.

I agree that there would be compromises with the 5 min layout that I posted, and it's possible that there is no way to work it out differently than what you've built, but you can't be surprised that your neighbors not happy.

I'm a residential designer and routinely see and deal with issues that could have an impact on neighboring properties, but I attempt (as you did) to work out solutions that don't get my clients in hot water with their neighbors. But sometimes the neighbors aren't always reasonable, and battles, sometimes legal, are unavoidable.

BTW, I do like your shop.

 

[DuluthMN]

dOUGMAC, I think you would be able to turn around and pick up that house for a steal of a deal, and then turn it into a rental property! I would quit explaining yourself. A mans property is his own.

 

[Graymills - Craig]

i say screw them. its your property. Do with it as you wish, if they don;t want it, they can move.

Not a great long-term solution. Eventually either he will need their help, or they'll find legal loopholes with which to harass him.

 

[DuluthMN]

Not a great long-term solution. Eventually either he will need their help, or they'll find legal loopholes with which to harass him.

I love the term "legal loopholes". It gives false promise to the ignorant.

 

[JCQuick]

So are they still complaining or just being d-heads

 

[scottzilla]

I just watched a show about two neighbors in CA who couldn't get along. I can't for the life of me remember the names now but one family (husband/wife) ended of getting shot by the old guy next door. Point being, these neighbor things can get way out of hand.

The OP should take a proactive approach and shoot his neighbors first.

 

[Graymills - Craig]

I love the term "legal loopholes". It gives false promise to the ignorant.

What I mean is that there are usually little-known ordinances that the inspired grump can use to his or her benefit to harass a neighbor. For instance, he could have a compressor that technically runs afoul of sound regs.

Having lived through this and, admittedly, using lessons learned against a builder who I found attaching his scaffolding for a neighbor's rehab to my house (get this - he didn't want to ruin the wood work on the ****** neighbor's house!), it's not fun.

 

[Matt M PA]

I suppose the "combative neighbors" have what we call a Flag Lot. Our township no longer allows these. I could not understandy why....but now I do.

I credit the OP for trying to work something out.

 

[djd99]

I am amazed by the number of people in this discussion that do not seem to understand the concept of "property rights".

The clueless neighbors bear total responsibility for their situation and dougmac is being criticized for not bending over enough to please them. That's just nuts!

So true just enjoy your awesome space it's yours. Very sharp BTW any garage guy would be proud to own such a nice building. I never talk to my neighbors anyway so It would be no big loss for me, We've been here for 15 years and only spoke to each other a dozen times and I wouldn't have it any other way. Friendly neighbors just want to borrow your tools, no thank you.

 

[JMohn]

I am amazed by the number of people in this discussion that do not seem to understand the concept of "property rights".

The clueless neighbors bear total responsibility for their situation and dougmac is being criticized for not bending over enough to please them. That's just nuts!

According to the original post, the neighbors house had been there for fifteen years with no large building in their front yard. It's not entirely unreasonable for them to assume if nothing had changed over fifteen years, that no one would ever think to build a large building in front of their house as not everyone has perfect foresight for every situation.

On top of that, from the aerial photograph, it appears that the dougmac could have positioned his shop differently so as not to block so much of the neighbor's view. He wanted to work out an easement with his neighbor to use their driveway (which wasn't much of a choice IMO) or he could have run a shop driveway on the South side of his house, which he decided he didn't want to do either.

I'm not faulting dougmac for what he did. He did what was best for him within the law. I also don't fault the neighbors for what they did in trying to stop him as there were no great choices for them either and they tried to do what was best for them within the law. With housing prices depressed in most markets, I'm sure this doesn't help them at all.

Showing some sympathy for the plight of the neighbors is hardly being critical of dougmac "for not bending over enough to please them." There was no way this was going to work out for everyone and that's a shame but it happens sometimes.

 

[6768rogues]

I would ignore them.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I would have put up a 10 ft board fence first thing when the neighbors house was built. Wouldn't want them spying in my back windows and what I was doing on my deck. They would not have had any view with that fence, the building would have just reduced the view of the sky/horizon at that point.

Its the neighbor's problem, plain and simple. Its like buying a house and not understanding that the thousand acres next door could turn into a landfill...... you have to anticipate the future.

Charles

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

On top of that, from the aerial photograph, it appears that the dougmac could have positioned his shop differently so as not to block so much of the neighbor's view.

View of WHAT? Dougmac's wife or teenage daughter sunbathing on their deck? Or DM mowing his back yard?

Stupid people buy houses like that, thats why they are having issues with him, they are stupid and expect everyone to compensate for their stupidity and not interfere with their life.

DM built a garage, a large investment, and is probably planning on staying put for a long time. I'll bet the neighbors move, either by losing the house to the montage company, or having to move for a new job, or moving because they have been "slighted" (their opinion).

Charles

 

[ZRX61]

Does this make it clearer?

Crystal Under the circumstances I'd have done exactly what you did

 

[thesharkman]

ah, yes, getting into the garage would be a problem that way. oh well, i'd have done the same thing. at the end of the day, it's your place, you followed the proper procedure and the neighbors didn't want to assist in helping themselves allieviate the situation.

nice garage too, btw.

shark

 

[787B]

DuluthMN: Oh, how I wish I had YOUR neighbors!!!

Matt M, PA: Flag lots are still common in Maryland, and multiplied during the housing bubble. Stupid people buy them in droves.

dougmac: You did your due-diligence, tried to be a good neighbor and preemptively compromise, and the idiots who bought the flag lot spit in your face. Not surprising they would make the stupid choice since after all they bought the flag lot! You have nothing to feel bad about and no bad Karma. They've earned all the bad karma for buying bad and being pig-headed when the olive branch was offered to them.

My Dad taught me that when buying property, it's my responsibility to buy it right. Like buying a car. If I buy a clunker, it's my fault. When buying a house, he taught me not to buy one in a flood plain (lot's of dumb people in the world...), not to buy one on a major road (might be expanded into 4-6-8 lanes), not to buy one in an area without big setbacks (like this neighborhood), triple-check zoning on any surrounding property (so a Wally World Mega Mart doesn't spring up in the back yard), or with a wet basement, etc, etc, etc. If I ignore the advice and somebody builds a Garage Mahal six feet from my front porch, it's MY fault for buying stupid.

BTW, that is a sweet garage. Mine is a toilet bowl in a bus station by comparison...

 

[PCO6]

Around here your neighbour's property is called a "key lot". They are sometimes created by the owner of a large lot, let's say you in this case, severing a peice of your land and selling it to someone, often a relative. That may or may not be true but you have to wonder how your neighbour's lot was created. One thing that should have been considered was a "view easement" that would have prohibited any construction that would have obstructed a reasonable view in front of the back lot. Personally, I think both lots are devalued when they are "keyed" together. I think in this case both you and your neighbour are both going to have a hard time selling your lots in the future ... them much more than you.

 

[crewchief888]

Personally, I think both lots are devalued when they are "keyed" together. I think in this case both you and your neighbour are both going to have a hard time selling your lots in the future ... them much more than you.

i was trying to put my finger on what was "wrong" with this.
legally nothing is wrong, the garage is built to code with proper setbacks ect.
the lot possibly being devalued would be my concern.
i'd like to have the huge garage/workspace that i think i should have, but i know sometime in the future either myself, the ol' lady or her kids are going to have to deal with it.
quite possibly the next owner of my house wouldnt want or like my garage, and would rather have the larger backyard.

all depends on your perspective i guess.
i dont disagree with what the OP did, this is just my $0.02

 

[Wanna Ride]

DuluthMN:
Matt M, PA: Flag lots are still common in Maryland, and multiplied during the housing bubble. Stupid people buy them in droves.

Earlier, I mentioned my parent's home is situated on a lot similar to dougmacs, they live in Annapolis. Their neighbors home was built on a flag lot, almost identical to dougmac's.

 

[James E]

Let me preface this by saying I have no problems with what the OP did. His neighbors should have realized that they were in a position where they had to choose the lesser of two evils. They made the wrong choice.

That being said, I would be very surprised if they didn't make some attempt to sue you for diminution of value. If you see an appraiser poking around your properties, look out. They may not have a case, but that won't stop them from trying.

 

[Falcon67]

According to the original post, the neighbors house had been there for fifteen years with no large building in their front yard. It's not entirely unreasonable for them to assume if nothing had changed over fifteen years, that no one would ever think to build a large building in front of their house as not everyone has perfect foresight for every situation.

No, not even. Never, ever assume anything - see post by 787B. When you ASSume on a property, guess which part you get. If there's a property line, assume the neighbor can do ANYTHING inside that line. That nice field behind your dream house might well be zoned Heavy Industrial.

There's a pair of houses around the corner where the back on one house is not 10' from the side of the one on the cross street. Stupid IMHO. Both properties have been bought and sold - and not cheaply - so some people apparently don't care. Where we used to live - next door that open lot might get a horse barn or a lumber yard or a...

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thr...10/how_houston_gets_along_without_zoning.html

 

[stricht8]

Let me preface this by saying I have no problems with what the OP did. His neighbors should have realized that they were in a position where they had to choose the lesser of two evils. They made the wrong choice.

That being said, I would be very surprised if they didn't make some attempt to sue you for diminution of value. If you see an appraiser poking around your properties, look out. They may not have a case, but that won't stop them from trying.

The lawsuit would go nowhere if the building were built with a permit and within the required setbacks and height requirements dictated by the zoning ordinance. They have no case.

 

[TheShrine]

Lots of opinions here. Regardless of who was first in their construction, the OP or the neighbor, BOTH should have considered the future and its possibilities. The OP is not void of the responsibility he has in destroying the value of property not more than 10 feet from from his own. Those posters that are thumping their chest and finding fault with the neighbors are as short sighted as the OP. I doubt we'll ever hear from the OP or the self righteous chest thumpers when the property is sold at a significant loss or rented because the neighbors refuse to live there any longer. The end result will be a deserted and decaying house (Again. not 10 feet from his own investment!) or rented/leased to renters that could care less about their environment....or their neighbors !

Yes, it is a nice garage, one to be proud of. And yes the OP applied reason in his negotiations. Long term....what has he done to his own property value and his family? When do the tools come up missing? When does the decay from the destroyed property next door start creeping on to the OP's? There are a plethora of possibilities that could and most likely will occur.

It is my hope that everything works out, and the neighbors and their property fairs well, and everyone lives happily ever after. In my opinion, it's not about being right....it's about doing the right thing. History will tell if the OP has done the right thing.

 

[stricht8]

If the original poster followed the zoning ordinance and was rightfully granted a building permit then he did the right thing. The town screwed up by allowing a rear lot with no frontage to be buildable and the neighbor screwed up by buying it. If the neighbor felt that he had any rights then he could have appealed the building permit, but he didn't. Even if he did he most likely would have gotten nowhere. The OP wanted to build a garage and did so as permitted by town zoning. He did nothing wrong and he ultimately increased the value of his property by the erecting the new structure. Having a close by structure is not realistically going to cause a neighbor to abandon his property and tenants are not always a bad thing. They oftentimes make much better neighbors than the property owners because they don't mettle and complain as much.

 

[StingRay]

As for some of the comments about checking zoning because the lot next to you might be heavy industrial think again. It's just zoning and it can be changed. Even if the planning statement doesn't allow a particular zoning it can easily be changed. You buy a lot that is an area entirely agricultural/residential and the neigbor gets the bright idea that he can increase property value 10 fold by going industrial and the local council agrees then you will have a fight on your hands to stop it. Buyer beware indeed.

 

[LEVE]

Even if the planning statement doesn't allow a particular zoning it can easily be changed.

I'm the Vice-Chairman for the Planning and Zoning Commission in my town. I can attest that it's not easy to obtain variance, or re-zone an area. There's many considerations such as:

• Federal Law.
• State Law.
• County Law.
• Environmental concerns.
• Neighborhood Use laws (not always zoning).
• Citizen Input.
• A couple of public meetings for citizen input.
• Town Council Input/ratification.
• Post law adoption ramifications.

Anyone that thinks it's easy to change zoning laws or obtain a variance needs to sit on a Zoning & Planning Commission for a while. They'll learn the opposite.

The ease of changing these things is inversely proportional to the size of the area the commission governs. I can only imagine how hard/lont it would be in a large metro area.

 

[TheShrine]

If the original poster followed the zoning ordinance and was rightfully granted a building permit then he did the right thing. That is correct. What he did was "legal". What is debatable is...was it the "right" thing?


Having a close by structure is not realistically going to cause a neighbor to abandon his property Did you not see the pics?!? "Close" now has a new definition.

....and tenants are not always a bad thing. They oftentimes make much better neighbors than the property owners because they don't mettle and complain as much. I agree but this situation is not the norm.

Again, when you consider all of the possible scenarios....the bad far out weigh the good. Karma is a ...........

 

[PCO6]

I'm the Vice-Chairman for the Planning and Zoning Commission in my town. I can attest that it's not easy to obtain variance, or re-zone an area.

As a Land Use Planner and a Land Development Manager I agree with you totally. There are many checks and balances in the process - as there should be.

 

[stricht8]

Again, when you consider all of the possible scenarios....the bad far out weigh the good. Karma is a ...........

Well, looking at the photos more closely, I have to agree that it really ***** for the neighbor but again the neighbor's house should have never been oriented that way on the lot. The OP has the right to maximize the potential of his lot and that is exactly what he did. Let's say for example that the OP surrounded his lot with a really tall fence or a 10-15 ft hedge? This would essentially have the same effect on the neighbor and there is nothing wrong with fencing in your property. The bottom line is that the neighbors house should have never been built where it was and the neighbor should have never bought it. You never know, the neighbor may have already benefited from his houses' poor lot orientation but getting it really cheap to begin with.

 

[StingRay]

Then it depends where you live because here it's not all that hard to change zoning or planning. Both are a public process but local council is not bound in any way by the desires of the people unless it is taken to petition. After that it would simply go to a public vote. You can buy a property and and know that the closest property in zoning or planning is a mile away and get a letter the next day that council "intends" to rezone the property next to you to Industrial. Ask me how I know. We have put the brakes on it but they just took the whole deal behind closed doors in the name of strategic long term planning. I'm glad there is more common sense where some of you live than we have here.

I'm the Vice-Chairman for the Planning and Zoning Commission in my town. I can attest that it's not easy to obtain variance, or re-zone an area. There's many considerations such as:

• Federal Law.
• State Law.
• County Law.
• Environmental concerns.
• Neighborhood Use laws (not always zoning).
• Citizen Input.
• A couple of public meetings for citizen input.
• Town Council Input/ratification.
• Post law adoption ramifications.

Anyone that thinks it's easy to change zoning laws or obtain a variance needs to sit on a Zoning & Planning Commission for a while. They'll learn the opposite.

The ease of changing these things is inversely proportional to the size of the area the commission governs. I can only imagine how hard/lont it would be in a large metro area.

 

[StingRay]

As for the OP's garage I have a shelter belt 50 ft high around my property. If his neigbors don't like the view they can plant some trees. He would have had every right to have done the same and I'm surprised there aren't any there now. If he'd had trees would the neighbors be complaining about them blocking the view?

 

[Todd.Brock]

The corner of the garage makes it look like Its a condo or somekind of common entrance. I guess the letter of the law wasnt violated, but it just seems like a bad idea to put a garage 10 ft from their front door. I agree the neighbor had the ability to "remedy" the problem. I guess I really wouldnt want to have neighbors hate me that much if I cant be outhere making any noise. That seems to be asking for trouble in my opinion.

 

[mpire]

My uncle had a similar situation one time. He wanted to develop some property but he needed a right of way over another property to put in a drive like he wanted. The other property owner wanted my uncle to sell him the property so he could develop it. So they were at a stalemate. So my uncle gave up and just developed the property anyway. In the end the other guy sold him the property at a quarter of what he was asking originally just to get rid of it. You can't please everyone, just don't break any laws.

 

[yellowgt1vert]

We just broke ground on a new 24x30 garage on our property. The home is 73 years old and was built by a prominent family in the early days of our town. Thank goodness the man was a "car guy" as evidenced by a photo of the house in a 1948 Life magazine that shows the 55' long driveway and the street in front of the house lined with cars...he also built a garage in '37 that will hold two modern cars (many of our neighbors have no garage, a 'carriage house' detached garage or an extension on their garage so they can park in them).

I spent countless hours working on positioning our 'carriage house' on my 150' x 140' lot so as to impact my neighbors' homes (we live on a main corner in our (thankfully) non-historic registry neighborhood) and my own home. I ended up finding the city willing to grant me a second driveway cut as I technically sit on two lots and the new carriage house can't be seen from the main driveway. I'm entering on the side street from my home and the only thing on the block that encompasses my new driveway is other folks' driveways.

You'd still be suprised the number of folks that aren't excited about a new garage being built... I'm ecstatic though as I have 4 cars in storage off my property right now, plus 3 at home...the four in storage MUST be inside per city regs (and I feel they should be too), but I'm also not leaving our Corvette or Z in the weather either.

I feel for the OP as I'm sure I'll hear some of it too. It is a shame when developers design lots like his neighbors have. Out here in Oklahoma, where we have plenty of space, stuff like that usually ends up as a "green space" that the developer writes off and deeds to the subdivision.

I'll post up some pictures as mine moves along...

 

[sneezer41]

I live in a world of 30 foot setbacks, so i cannot relate, but i think the neighbor might have been smart to suggest a land swap. A little pricey in surveyors and lawyers, but if he traded you a chunk of land at the end of your driveway for a piece where your [now current] garage is, you would have the best of both worlds. You could back your trailer in and he would have a better more valuable property.

His loss entirely

 

[Shadowdog500]

I live in a world of 30 foot setbacks, so i cannot relate, but i think the neighbor might have been smart to suggest a land swap. A little pricey in surveyors and lawyers, but if he traded you a chunk of land at the end of your driveway for a piece where your [now current] garage is, you would have the best of both worlds. You could back your trailer in and he would have a better more valuable property.

His loss entirely

I was thinking of the same thing. If you did a land swap of your property in front of his house for his property beside his house it could have worked out better for both of you.

How much room is behind his house.

Chris