Combining 12/2 and 14/2?

[expatriated]

In my basement, today I ran a new receptacle from a nearby junction box. This is on a 20 amp circuit with 12/2 wg run TO the junction. FROM the junction, the previous resident ran 14/2 wg to a switch which controls only 4 60w lights. Nothing else is on the circuit.

I ran 12/2 wg from the junction to my new receptacle. The only thing on the new receptacle is an upright freezer, pulling 5 amps.

My question is why would they run 14 from a 12 and should I remove the 14 and replace it with 12?

 

[Gary S]

I'd definitely remove the 14 wire from any 20 amp circuit. It doesn't matter how much load is on the line. If a short circuit would occur on the 14 wire, it would have to carry enough current to trip the 20 amp breaker. That is when things can get ugly.

 

[mrb]

you either need to replace the 14 with 12, or put the circuit on a 15a breaker.

 

[nate379]

My old workshop was wired just like that as well. I don't know why. 12 guage wire is just barely more expensive than 14, so why not do it right you know?

I pulled it out and rewired everything with 12. Even still I only had a 10/3 wire running to the workshop so I put 15 amp breakers in the subpanel.

 

[Jack Burton]

Because 14/2 is cheaper than 12/2.

If your smallest wire is 14...fuse it with a 15 amp breaker....if 12 gauge, fuse with a 20 amp...

 

[nate379]

Yeah by maybe $0.10/ft if that. Oh... "saving" $25 on a roll isn't worth if comparing to not burning the house down!

 

[Jack Burton]

Yeah by maybe $0.10/ft if that. Oh... "saving" $25 on a roll isn't worth if comparing to not burning the house down!

Dude...I dunno. I have personally seen electricians run two feeds of 12/2 off of a dual 220V breaker basically because they did not want to go to the store and get the 12/3 w g. Copper is expensive.

 

[nate379]

My post wasnted directed right to you, just a general statement about peoples thoughts.

Myself, I'd rather spend an extra $20-30 here and there to do it right then 1/2 *** it.


It's suprising how fast wire uses up too. I wired a 12x22 shed and it took almost 200ft of wire to do the lights and outlets. I was guessing it'd take 50-75 ft!

 

[expatriated]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm gonna go ahead and install 12 where the 14 is.

 

[sberry]

I'd definitely remove the 14 wire from any 20 amp circuit. It doesn't matter how much load is on the line. If a short circuit would occur on the 14 wire, it would have to carry enough current to trip the 20 amp breaker. That is when things can get ugly.

Not true, this will never be the cause of a fire.

the previous resident ran 14/2 wg to a switch which controls only 4 60w lights. Nothing else is on the circuit.

While this is not a legal installation to the letter of the code it wont mean squat. It has a calculated load of 240 watts similar to a fixture on a wire with 5 times the ampacity and as long as there are not means for someone to come along and add unpredictable load its all moot. I have seen switch loops with lamp cord to single fixtures operate for 50 yrs and they work never an issue.
I wouldn't do an install that way but I wouldn't wake up in a cold sweat thinking the end was near from it either especially when the switch is off.

 

[mrb]

Not true, this will never be the cause of a fire. While this is not a legal installation to the letter of the code it wont mean squat. It has a calculated load of 240 watts similar to a fixture on a wire with 5 times the ampacity and as long as there are not means for someone to come along and add unpredictable load its all moot. I have seen switch loops with lamp cord to single fixtures operate for 50 yrs and they work never an issue.
I wouldn't do an install that way but I wouldn't wake up in a cold sweat thinking the end was near from it either especially when the switch is off.

it actually does mean squat. this is the type of thing that while doesnt really have anything to do with anything, that insurance companies use to deny a claim. -dont have any electrical work that isnt to code.

 

[sberry]

(In general for the sake of discussion) The breaker on a general use circuit is there mainly to protect against multiple loads being plugged in the same circuit usually with multiple 15A receptacles. In theory a 20 breaker with 14 wire to a single 15A recept would be safe.
Devices that come factory, say UL listed come with 15A plug with wire and internal components suitable for use on circuits with up to 20A over current protection.

 

[tfi racing]

I'm with sberry on this one.If you feel uncomfortable with the 14/2,by all means change it.On the other hand,one could likely run double the allowable amperage on that loomex and nothing bad would ever happen,but rules are rules and one should adhere to them.

 

[Aceman]

Myself, I'd rather spend an extra $20-30 here and there to do it right then 1/2 *** it.

And that's why you're not an electrician. Using #12 for everything is a waste of resources and something I'd expect a diy'er would say. #14 has a time and place, the fact that you don't agree with it, doesn't make it half ***.

Maybe everyone else would rather put that 20-30 dollars in their gas tank or buy groceries with it.

I pulled it out and rewired everything with 12. Even still I only had a 10/3 wire running to the workshop so I put 15 amp breakers in the subpanel.

Another example of wasted resources, pulling #14 out just to replace it with #12, but then you leave it on a 15 amp breaker anyway? Does that make any sense?

 

[HoosierBuddy]

After I bought my current house, I had an electrician friend rewire the upstairs, as it was all knob and tube.

I bought a couple of rolls of 14-2 to get us started with, as the upstairs is just bedrooms. He used it and went with 15 amp breakers, but he made it quite clear to me that he would NEVER have done it that way if he was buying the material. He wired everything in 12-2.

At the time...a 250' of 12-2 was about $25 vs maybe $18 for a roll of 14-2.

If he had lived to see $140 rolls of 12-2, maybe his thoughts would have changed.

Phil

 

[ripsnortMN]

14g is for a 15 amp breaker or less. 12g is for a 20amp breaker or less. Thats what I have always went by. I did my whole garage a few years ago with nothing but 12g wire and 20 amp breakers.

 

[sberry]

it actually does mean squat. this is the type of thing that while doesnt really have anything to do with anything, that insurance companies use to deny a claim. -dont have any electrical work that isnt to code.

Show me a case or 2 where someone was denied because of shoddy or un inspected or un permitted work.

 

[sberry]

Lots of buildings with electric code violations asre insured each year.

 

[nate379]

I can see why you'd say that because I didn't explain why.

When I ran 14 guage and only went with a 15 amp breaker was because the main feeding the building was only a 10 guage wire.

I was planning on upgrading that main so I could run my welder out of the building as well, just I moved before I got that far. I would have swapped the breakers to 20 amp then.


What I pulled out was a combination of 14 guage, 12 guage and knob and tube, all was a HUGE mess and a fire waiting to happen. It was being powered off a 100amp breaker in the panel as well.
There was 30-40 feet of 12 guage and just a few feet of 14 guage so I just used the older 12 guage and added more where needed.


Place was wired in the 70s and it wasn't done right. I could turn off every breaker but the main and half the stuff in the house would still be on.

This was one 15 amp circuit...

microwave, wall furnace, fridge, and hood over the stove in the kitchen, washing machine in the back room, and an outlet in the living room, which the TV, DVD, etc was on.

The wall furnance alone had a 10 amp draw. Never tripped the breaker somehow.

And that's why you're not an electrician. Using #12 for everything is a waste of resources and something I'd expect a diy'er would say. #14 has a time and place, the fact that you don't agree with it, doesn't make it half ***.

Maybe everyone else would rather put that 20-30 dollars in their gas tank or buy groceries with it.



Another example of wasted resources, pulling #14 out just to replace it with #12, but then you leave it on a 15 amp breaker anyway? Does that make any sense?