Combo Wrenches: Facing Some Tough Choices
- Thread starter jerk_chicken
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zuspiel
Well-known member
Wow this thread could end up costing me some serious change.
Now, how exactly does that distinguish this thread from most others???
billymade
Well-known member
smcdonn, care to expound on the facility and what you make there? Are Craftsman, Matco, or other Danaher products made at the same place? Has Danaher affected Armstrong in any way to lower quality or standard? Don't mean to put you on the spot but inquiring minds want to know!
Paladin
Well-known member
X2! What's the latest on the Armstrong quality scene?
All Danaher USA made wrenches are made at our facility including Armstrong. As with any leading manufacturing facility we are constantly seeking ways to manufacture at a lower cost, but would never compromise quality in any of these efforts. You don't buy Made in USA because it's the cheapest...
back2class
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We all are dying to know. Do all the Danaher combo wrenches use the same steel and heat treat?
billymade
Well-known member
Can you tell us the quality spec; Matco vs. Armstrong? Which is better quality?
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Thanks! I found that one, but due to the coding, wasn't sure if it was the same length or level as the 600n/10 or variants of the series. Looks like I'll be placing an order or two
and seeing if I can put a hex set together, though it looks like they only have singles in Gedore or Hazet. There are some Gedores there without pics, and are quite expensive.
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Merkava_4
Banned
I'm putin' you under the spotlight sir!!
Are Armstrong and Matco wrenches made in the same facility?
Are Craftsman Pro and Matco wrenches made in the same facility?
How do the wrenches differ from each other?
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Anyone have side by side pics of all three lines?
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Got some advice, the 600N and SPC lines are not the same and often ads might scam a bit. The SPC is not the same quality as the 600N, but a promotional thing that usually sells for cheaper.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
At this point, if you go with a major brand, you'll probably have a hard time finding and bad combo wrenches. Go with the best you can afford. I'd look at Facom if I were in Europe... I've always had good service from Facom tools.
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Could be. It's a matter of spending 60% on the SPC, which are likely quite ok, or just a bit more to get a 600n12 set. The SPC could be a nice backup, but I also have my CM Pros for that.
You know my deal, while I'm here, I got good advice to get souvenirs, and I'd like them to be fully functional and durable when I go back six years from now. I've also become really against disposable and non-investment level items (to the point of even using Sigg water bottles!). it's become a pain and a nuissance to use lower quality stuff and I'm not going for it anymore. So the best quality I can afford. The best thing is there are so many brands out here, I'm likely going to duplicate many things due to the hotness factor and since my gf has no interest in my tool inventory, duplicates are easy
You know my deal, while I'm here, I got good advice to get souvenirs, and I'd like them to be fully functional and durable when I go back six years from now. I've also become really against disposable and non-investment level items (to the point of even using Sigg water bottles!). it's become a pain and a nuissance to use lower quality stuff and I'm not going for it anymore. So the best quality I can afford. The best thing is there are so many brands out here, I'm likely going to duplicate many things due to the hotness factor and since my gf has no interest in my tool inventory, duplicates are easy
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Thanks for chiming in. I have another question regarding sockets. I've seen some Armstrongs that look remarkably similar to CM with the laser sizing. How similar (or different) are they?
I can't comment on sockets as our facility isn't the one that manufactures them. All Matco, Armstrong and CM Pro's are made at our facility including other brands and YES there are differences in all of them. A simple hardness tester will give you a few details into the difference in some of the wrenches. There are plenty of differences between all of them yet to the naked eye many of them look the same. I would love to give all the details regarding the differences between each wrench but I can't.
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Not attacking at all, but curious- would you be able to show the hardness differences between any of them, or is there data available?
back2class
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Thanks for sharing what you can. Very Cool! Would I wuld love to know more but I completely respect that and others here do as well.
Here is a thread in a german forum about that: klick
Thats what the Hazet dude said (post #8 Dieter Michels (HAZET-WERK)):
The only difference of the SPC series is:
-standard plastic case
-different simpler ratchet (different beam , no polished head, but material and workmanship "1A-Hazet-Quality" )
-important: all other tools are identical to the tools listed in the catalog
meaning of the SPC-series:
- competitive pricing
This is only possible because of:
- cheaper plastic case
- no polishing of the ratchet head
- only 1 promotion-set for each drive size
- high production volume
- extreme tight calculation
My advise to you is just go to a store and look at them if you like em. Or just order them and if you dont like them return them to the shop within 14 days.
billymade
Well-known member
smcdonn, thanks for sharing what you can; can you tell us which are stronger then which or which brand you would recommend for the highest quality? Everyone gets in all these debates on this site and none of us really have any hard facts to support anyones "opinion"; since your in quality control..... we are all salivating here to learn something! If you can't tell us specifics about what you work with; can you educate us in what it takes to make a good quality wrench? Possibly, tell us what "generally" sets apart the pro quality and low quality tools; why do some cost so much and some so little; I would assume quality has to play a part, aside from marketing, market target, distribution model etc. etc. I appreciate your willingness to speak up and any info you can talk about in specific or general terms, without crossing your NDA (non-disclosure agreement) with your employer!
If I started a new thread about "quality" tools and what sets the cheap/quality apart; could you address these issues in a general way and not cross your NDA? Would love to learn about tool quality from you.....
If I started a new thread about "quality" tools and what sets the cheap/quality apart; could you address these issues in a general way and not cross your NDA? Would love to learn about tool quality from you.....
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Thanks again, Monte. That is definitely something to think about seriously. In some sense, it's not that much more to get a 600n12 set for 119 for some extra, more expensive pieces that I don't have that I could use. This still makes things tough! Maybe I should just get the cheaper one as my backup set!
MAD
Well-known member
From what I know about Danaher, my guess is this:
If it is more cost effective and efficient to make the consumer brand products with different material, or processes (heat treating etc..), then that is what they will do.
If it is more cost effective and efficient to use the same material and processes as the industrial quality product, then that is what they will do.
This is bound to vary from product to product and may not stay consistent over time.
If it is more cost effective and efficient to make the consumer brand products with different material, or processes (heat treating etc..), then that is what they will do.
If it is more cost effective and efficient to use the same material and processes as the industrial quality product, then that is what they will do.
This is bound to vary from product to product and may not stay consistent over time.
Vinko
Well-known member
It wouldn't be a test that would past muster as "scientific" because we'd have to buy the wrenches ourselves and send them to a lab, but if enough guys on GJ sent $50 bucks each into an escrow account, I bet we could arrange for a lab to test for several different properties a basic combo wrench from 6 different brands. We could do this for "only" several thousand. My guess comes from talking to someone else about testing other metal tools unrelated to this discussion. I was looking into something else. If I find out anything more, I'll post it. I've been curious for a while now. I'd love to know the properties of a Craftsman raised panel, SO, Blue Point, Matco, Armstrong, Wright, Mac, not to mention the German wrenches. Maybe even Toptul.
By the way, I don't have a complete set of Armstrong, but I do have one of S-O, and if I had to do it again, I'd probably go Armstrong over SO. I don't see the cost advantage of SO.
We've begun to beat the hell out of the newer Armstrong wrenches we've gotten. The environment is a lot harsher than a mechanics shop, I'd imagine. Everything still looks pretty good, so far.
There are tons of details when it comes to the quality of a combination wrench. You could easily send wrenches off to a lab and have the steel properties analyzed although much more goes into it than just steel. Box end chamfer, concentricity, stamp alignment, are just a few details that are inspected on wrenches. Ultimate strength of a wrench is usually not a question on box end. Whens the last time you BROKE the box end of a combo?? Now there are designs that grip fasteners differently that help prevent rounding out bolts and such, but tolerance is usually the critical element here. I'm sure you've had a wrench that fit sloppy and others that fit snug. And one of the last things and one that ranks very high on some customers list is ultimate finish. When you strive for a jewelry finish wrench, you are going to have some that don't meet the spec so you can't sell them to the customer. I hope this gives everyone a little insight to combination wrenches.
OP
jerk_chicken
Banned
Donn,
Thanks for chiming in. Could you speak on tolerances on the open and closed ends and how close pass/fail is, as well as if tolerances are maintained through the different danaher lines, or even more stringent standards are observed with higher end stuff?
Thanks for chiming in. Could you speak on tolerances on the open and closed ends and how close pass/fail is, as well as if tolerances are maintained through the different danaher lines, or even more stringent standards are observed with higher end stuff?
I can't go into details on what customers specifications are but there is an ASME standard for torque proof load on a wrench among other things. ASME B107.100-2002 will give you an idea of what the American Society of Mechanical Engineers feel the limits should be on how much torque a wrench should hold among many other details about dimensions of wrenches and such. But thats not to say a customer doesn't demand more. An example on a 1" wrench: ASME proof load open end is 3,575 in-lbs and 5,390 box end. Track down this documentation and read through it, it's very interesting.
Vinko
Well-known member
Not at a glance. I don't use either enough -- my first impression is price, obviously. For shop, SO combo wrenches are used for some precision work: machinist-made fasteners. I don't know if there's a reason my father chose them for that job or if that's just what he put out in the room to use to change fixtures, etc. These wrenches also "rove" despite our best efforts to keep them in one place -- they fix a forklift or a compressor or something. Sometimes a large Amada band saw. The Armstrongs also do this roving work but are much more in use on the shop floor. It's dirty and not everyone using the tools respects them -- we've got a few idiots who probably shouldn't use them. But they do hold up pretty well, so far. (My dad complains that everyone thinks that they are a "tool maker" that they can somehow grind something and make a better tool. We got idiots who grind screwdrivers down, **** with pliers, etc. But that leads me into another topic. It pisses me off though). But anyway, Armstrongs have held up in the face of stupidity. But so have S-O. The finish on the Armstrongs have held up pretty well -- I didn't notice any abrasions -- and they stay all day on grinding tables where they're used to change out abrasive wheels, etc. Heavy cast-iron and steel slugs get drags around on the tables, the wrenches get bounced around, thrown in drawers at the end of the day, dropped on the floor, etc.
Like you said though, who's going to break a combo wrench? Unless you're some guy with a 10 ft. pipe, I guess?
I don't use the tools all the time, on a consistent basis. Or most of them. Ours is a semi-skilled shop in addition to 3 people with machinist/skilled backgrounds. Those guys like to keep their own tools, for the most part. Unless they do maintenance. Then they use shop tools.
Merkava_4
Banned
smcdonn
Can you tell us whether the Armstrong combination wrenches are bent at the box end on a bender before heat treatment
-or-
Is the angle of the offset at the box end built into the forging dies at the beginning of the manufacturing process?
I ask this question because Snap-on combination wrenches have always had the offset angle built into the forging dies.
Can you tell us whether the Armstrong combination wrenches are bent at the box end on a bender before heat treatment
-or-
Is the angle of the offset at the box end built into the forging dies at the beginning of the manufacturing process?
I ask this question because Snap-on combination wrenches have always had the offset angle built into the forging dies.
Wrong merkava, I watched how it is made last night and they were making wrenches and the bend is done after the stamping process!! I watched it a few times and when it is pressed out they are flat.
billymade
Well-known member
Merk, I was watching the "how its made" episode and actually; they actually bend the offset on the wrenches after the after they are forged! Go, figure.... I don't know if this is a new thing or if they have always done it this way...
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
They bend it before the forging process though
i think you meant to say they bend it before the heat treating process. the forging is when the steel is hammered into a rough blank. that is the first step.
the forging is when the steel is hammered into a rough blank. that is the first step.
Thanks Krusty!!! Exactly
There are wrenches on the market that have the bend forged in and others that bend it after being forged. Forging the bend in isn't necessarily stronger or better, it's just different. Either of them perform the same duty. Bending the wrench after forging probably does induce some stresses into the steel although they would be relieved once they are brought up to temp in heat treat.
Merkava_4
Banned
I may be wrong now but I was right at one time!! Back sometime during 1990-1992 when I was in A&P school, the Snap-on dudes came to the class and gave us a big lecture on the advantages of their wrenches. One of the main differences they stressed was the angle being built into the forging dies at the very first stages of production; and they went on to say that bending a wrench in a bender weakens the wrench!! They even passed out little booklets to us showing the forging dies. If Snap-on has moved to using a bender, then that means they're no better than Cornwell !!
They use a bender!! I have give it to that guy for trying to explain why snap on is better, most dealers just say they are the best and offer no other explanation
