Commercial code ???

[Thumper68]

The salon my wife work at is having a strange issue, when anyone uses their massager it trips the built in GFCI on all the blow dryers on that circuit. and then a few days ago one of the blow dryers had a massive short in the damaged cord and nothing tripped the short was at where the wires enter the dryer from twisting.

The salon was built out under the 2014 NEC does commercial require a AFCI or GFCI on circuits that are not near water?

The wires continued to arc until my wife pulled the plug.

 

[sberry]

You can have a line to neutral fault without tripping gfci. Had it happen on a small battery charger. It didn't quite short to the steel bench but from one cord strand to the other, it did trip the breaker. How long did this arc before she pulled the cord and would certainly be interested in why the interruption didn't trip.

 

[KenC]

The arc was probably a broken conductor in the cord arcing when moved. That's not a short in my definition. No current to ground or hot to neutral. A GFCI only cares about equal current on hot and neutral and the overload only cares about total current. Neither of those are a problem in this case.

An AFCI would have or should trip as that is exactly what they are designed to do. But, I'm not aware of any requirement for those in a non-residential setting.

Edit: the first issue sounds like the massager has a hot to ground leak, assuming your 'built-in' means the breaker in the panel.

 

[tyme2par4]

You can have a line to neutral fault without tripping gfci. Had it happen on a small battery charger. It didn't quite short to the steel bench but from one cord strand to the other, it did trip the breaker. How long did this arc before she pulled the cord and would certainly be interested in why the interruption didn't trip.

Exactly, hence the introduction of AFCI. The blow dryer I'm sure was only a 2 wire cord. If it wasn't arcing enough to overload the breaker, it would keep going until the insulation burnt off enough for a dead short, which would trip the breaker.

The messager could have an internal fault, or the GFCI could be worn out. Sometimes they get overly sensitive when they start to fail. I would definitely replace the breaker with a combo GFCI/AFCI breaker.

 

[Norcal]

AFCI's AKA "snake oil" are not required in non residential applications.

 

[larry_g]

The salon my wife work at is having a strange issue, when anyone uses their massager it trips the built in GFCI on all the blow dryers on that circuit. and then a few days ago one of the blow dryers had a massive short in the damaged cord and nothing tripped the short was at where the wires enter the dryer from twisting.

The salon was built out under the 2014 NEC does commercial require a AFCI or GFCI on circuits that are not near water?

The wires continued to arc until my wife pulled the plug.

Is this Salon built off of a residential building or is it in a strictly commercial building? Does this salon have a wash station for shampoos? Does each station have water? It would not seem to far fetched that a hair salon would have some special rules more like a medical facility.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Thumper68]

You can have a line to neutral fault without tripping gfci. Had it happen on a small battery charger. It didn't quite short to the steel bench but from one cord strand to the other, it did trip the breaker. How long did this arc before she pulled the cord and would certainly be interested in why the interruption didn't trip.

It was long enough for the stylist who was using it to drop it to the floor and for my wife to cross the room and unplug it so 30 seconds or more. and it did not trip the breaker.

Exactly, hence the introduction of AFCI. The blow dryer I'm sure was only a 2 wire cord. If it wasn't arcing enough to overload the breaker, it would keep going until the insulation burnt off enough for a dead short, which would trip the breaker.

The messager could have an internal fault, or the GFCI could be worn out. Sometimes they get overly sensitive when they start to fail. I would definitely replace the breaker with a combo GFCI/AFCI breaker.

The gfci's are on the cords for the hair dryers.

Is this Salon built off of a residential building or is it in a strictly commercial building? Does this salon have a wash station for shampoos? Does each station have water? It would not seem to far fetched that a hair salon would have some special rules more like a medical facility.

lg
no neat sig line

Completely commercial building a shopping mall to be exact. The wash stations are in a separate room, no water anywhere near the cutting stations.

 

[sberry]

These must be cord connected to 120 v circuits then. How many to a circuit. Seems they could be greedy and should be on somewhat dedicated circuits,, not shared with other equipment like massagers etc.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Those aren't GFCIs. Under certain circumstances a blow dryer won't trip a GFCI if it's submerged.
They are Immersion Detectors, meant to interrupt the power if the appliance is accidentally dropped into water.

http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/differences-between-gfci-idci-and-gfpe

 

[Thumper68]

Those aren't GFCIs. Under certain circumstances a blow dryer won't trip a GFCI if it's submerged.
They are Immersion Detectors, meant to interrupt the power if the appliance is accidentally dropped into water.

http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/differences-between-gfci-idci-and-gfpe

Thanks so much I learned something new today.

Any how when a massager is used it trips all of those on the same circuit, plus the fact that nothing tripped when the blow dryer was letting the smoke out. Should my wife be worried and demand that they have a electrician come in and check things out, or am I worrying over nothing?

 

[sberry]

One thing,,, seems they don't always know whats going in some of these places when they wire them. I just did a kitchen upgrade in a church that was pitiful, was very poorly laid out although it would have passed a residential kitchen. Had they ever been in a church kitchen it would have been obvious that 90% of the available outlets on 1 circuit wasn't a great idea.
I busted the 1 back to 1 duplex and added 6 more circuits to it, made it next to impossible to overload and while overkill is often used it was simple to do it that way and end all the problems and cords coming from other parts of the building at every event.
I would want to take a look and see if this is really suitable for multiple dryers or needs more to correctly serve the load, while there should take a look and see why gfci trips on all of them.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks so much I learned something new today.

Any how when a massager is used it trips all of those on the same circuit, plus the fact that nothing tripped when the blow dryer was letting the smoke out. Should my wife be worried and demand that they have a electrician come in and check things out, or am I worrying over nothing?

The messager should be checked for a ground fault. Frayed wires come to mind and current could be leaking to ground in certain positions and thats why the GFCI tripped.

The hair dryer not tripping a breaker is normal especially if it wasnt a short as mentioned above. If only the hot or neutral in the cord was frayed then its just arcing between an open connection in the cord.

If it was a line to neutral short, the breaker not tripping is normal as well since short circuits need to be above a certain magnitude before the breaker will trip. A hair dryer cord may not be of low enough impedance to allow high enough short circuit amperage for the breaker to trip.

Have her take pics of the cord where it was faulting and post them on here.

 

[tyme2par4]

Should my wife be worried and demand that they have a electrician come in and check things out, or am I worrying over nothing?

Anytime a circuit is repeatedly tripping, an electrician should be called. It could be as simple as it being overloaded. In which case, they just need to run a new dedicated circuit for the massager.
If you told the electrician about the experience with the blow dryer, I would imagine they would recommend you add AFCI to that circuit. These are power cords that probably see a lot of abuse, and probably no inspection by employees.