Composite pole barn columns? Need help ASAP

[Adittmer]

About to start construction on a shop/cabin in October. Having Walters building put up a 36'x72 17' with 1200sqft living space and the is shop/storage. My question is that in the last two weeks I fell in love with the idea of building it on perma columns till I priced them out I can't make it happen. Talking with our salesman he tells me about some new columns they just came out with where the bottom 8ft is made from polypropylene & high density polypropylene with some sort of welded steel skeleton, metal rods & plates ect with laminated wood attached to that. It's about 1/3 the cost. Problem is I can't find much info and I really want to know what I'm getting into. It's very important to me that this building last for many generations. Any help would be great


Thanks Adam & Alyssa

 

[rieferman]

Perma columns should add approx $100-200 per pole. For a building that large I would assume you have some budget flexibility. Is this really pushing you out of the right solution?

 

[Adittmer]

If money where not a problem I would be doing the perma columns without question. We had a budget and smaller building in mind at first, the building got larger more Windows have been added, a porch was just added etc. it's 15k over at this point. I feel like these posts are a great idea but just can't find any info on them and don't want to throw away $2500.

 

[LXCam]

Ya know, windows can be added later. Poles are forever......just saying.

 

[DougWil]

Don't know anything about those, but you can just buy the perma-column embedded steel connection and cast your own never rot columns.

https://www.permacolumn.com/wet-set-models

Personally I think it is fiscally foolish to put wood in the ground.

 

[matt_i]

It's very important to me that this building last for many generations.

Having wood in the ground does not compute with that statement. Put concrete in the ground.

 

[the GOAT]

..l very important to me that this building last for many generations. Any help would be great


Thanks Adam & Alyssa

Then don't build a pole barn.

 

[red61cj5]

All the pretty windows and porch aint gonna amount to much in 20 years if those columns rot off at ground, and they very well could. Plus the perma columns means you buy shorter uprights. So you save a few dollars there

 

[cj7jeep81]

Agree with the others. Perma-columns added about $100-$110 per column in my shop. I'd imagine the columns they're recommending have to add at least half that, so really, your increase isn't that much. The columns are the basis of support for your entire building. I think I'd rather use wood than an unknown plastic product I've never heard of before.

 

[Adittmer]

Where are you guys finding the perma columns for $100? I see the 3 ply 2x8s are $150 and I need like 30 of them. Then shipping is close to $700 cause it's 6000lbs. Then it looks like I'd also need $800 in bolts and uplift hard wear.

 

[cj7jeep81]

Where are you guys finding the perma columns for $100? I see the 3 ply 2x8s are $150 and I need like 30 of them. Then shipping is close to $700 cause it's 6000lbs. Then it looks like I'd also need $800 in bolts and uplift hard wear.

My perma-columns were $160 a piece, but the price for just a standard column (non-perma column) were $70 a piece. So the perma column only added $90. My shipping was all one fee from the supplier (bought everything from him). For uplift hardware, we just used 12" pieces of rebar knocked through the hole in the permacolumn, and a bag of concrete nails to attach the grade board to the column.

Looking back on my quote, the rebar was $20.59, and teh concrete nails were $124 (which I ended up having about 1/4 of the bag left over). That was for 26 posts, so roughly $6 per post for uplift/concrete nails.

 

[red61cj5]

This is literally the one part of your barn that is almost impossible to change later. If you use perma columns, you will hate the cost but look at them with satisfaction from then on. I know, cuz I did the same thing. If you don't, you get to spend the next few decades wondering what's going on beneath grade. The peace of mind is worth it, really. buy once cry once

 

[Adittmer]

Well I just got off the phone with the rep @ perma column to get a better idea on pricing & shipping. Sounds like if i might be able to get a price break if Walters buys them but he needs to check. Just emailed the banking asking for more money.

 

[LXCam]

Well I just got off the phone with the rep @ perma column to get a better idea on pricing & shipping. Sounds like if i might be able to get a price break if Walters buys them but he needs to check. Just emailed the banking asking for more money.

This is literally the one part of your barn that is almost impossible to change later. If you use perma columns, you will hate the cost but look at them with satisfaction from then on. I know, cuz I did the same thing. If you don't, you get to spend the next few decades wondering what's going on beneath grade. The peace of mind is worth it, really. buy once cry once

There's a ton of stuff you can do later to stay within your budget for now, poles ain't one of them.

 

[longez]

Buy once, cry once.

 

[tlmartin84]

Have your local machine shop build plates like the ones above, WAY cheaper than the PERMA's, and then set them in sonotubes....

 

[Adittmer]

All the pretty windows and patio aint going to add up to much in 20 years if those sections decay off at ground, and they exceptionally well could. Besides the perma sections implies you purchase shorter uprights. So you spare a couple of dollars there

I do understand this and this is why I'm asking. It's kinda funny no one has anything to say about the idea of the poly posts tho

 

[red61cj5]

I'm starting to think no one has heard of them, I know I haven't. Do you really want to be one of the first to try them? Sounds a little like Trex deckboards, only structural, and they had a lot of issues early on

 

[red61cj5]

And wtf is with the paraphrasing posts??

 

[rieferman]

It's kinda funny no one has anything to say about the idea of the poly posts tho

I think this is probably a case of perma-columns pretty much solved this topic in most of our minds, so none of us have had reason to gain experience with the other product. The perma-column price point, proof cases (lots of articles and studies available), and the forum's collective good experience with the product are all good data points.

Side note: Those that say to stay away from pole barns if you want a permanent building may not understand the huge list of applications and examples of really awesome "post frame" (aka pole barn) buildings.

Check out if interested in finding lots of good examples: http://www.nfba.org/index.html

 

[cj7jeep81]

Have your local machine shop build plates like the ones above, WAY cheaper than the PERMA's, and then set them in sonotubes....

Really nice thing about perma-columns is the bases are the same dimensions of the post, so finishing is really easy. With a round column from a sonotube, the concrete is going to stick out further than the post, which will make finishing more difficult.

 

[DougWil]

Really nice thing about perma-columns is the bases are the same dimensions of the post, so finishing is really easy. With a round column from a sonotube, the concrete is going to stick out further than the post, which will make finishing more difficult.

Make a square form.

 

[cj7jeep81]

Make a square form.

Right, but not going to do that with a sonotube, and then you're adding more time/cost to the project. Just pointing out that a $20 bracket and a $10 sonotube isn't quite a replacement. By the time you go through the hassle of building 30 square forms, getting them placed exactly right, then pouring/mounting the brackets, I'd rather just buy a permacolumn.

 

[wbclassics]

My building going up next month is also 36x72' with a 17.5' eave height for the rear 40ft of the building (front 36' of building length is 12' eave wall with an attic truss above). I spec'd a 3ply 2x8 glulam column with a PostProtector HDPE sleeve over each column. I couldn't see the benefit to the PermaColumn concrete base over the PostProtector sleeve in terms of the life of my column. I'm also using the HDPE skirt board protector that PostProtector sells. The PostProtectors will cost you about 70% less than Permacolumns will.

If I would have had the budget, I would have just gone with a stem wall foundation for the perimeter of my pole barn.

 

[DougWil]

Right, but not going to do that with a sonotube, and then you're adding more time/cost to the project. Just pointing out that a $20 bracket and a $10 sonotube isn't quite a replacement. By the time you go through the hassle of building 30 square forms, getting them placed exactly right, then pouring/mounting the brackets, I'd rather just buy a permacolumn.

Perma-columns seem to be about $150 each, the cast ins $40 or so.

30 x$110 = $3,300 so I guess you gotta figure what your time and $50 of materials are worth.

I think I could slap together 30 and clean up the mess in 4 hours.
I wish I made $800/hr tax free in my day job.

 

[cj7jeep81]

Perma-columns seem to be about $150 each, the cast ins $40 or so.

30 x$110 = $3,300 so I guess you gotta figure what your time and $50 of materials are worth.

I think I could slap together 30 and clean up the mess in 4 hours.
I wish I made $800/hr tax free in my day job.

Not to continue a ******* match, but don't forget the cost of the remainder of the post. $150=perma-column plus laminated 2x post. Perma-columns (in my case) added $90 per post over a standard laminated post.

So that's saving $50 per post, so roughly half the extra cost you mention. A building this big is going to be expensive regardless, so $1500 on a 30k (or more) building isn't that much. And they use higher PSI concrete than a normal mix as well, which will add to teh cost some. If you can make 30 forms and pour all that concrete in 4 hours, I'd recommend starting your own business to sell the columns. Should be able to retire in no time

 

[lakeroadster]

What is your location Adam?

In an arid, or semi-arid climate part of the country your worries are unfounded.

What was your thought process that lead you to a pole building in the first place... initial cost?

 

[WNYflyer]

The Wet Set Perma-Columns have published moment capacities. Depending on your pole spacing and with a 17' eave height do they even make unit that has sufficient moment capacity for the moment imparted by your proposed building ?

We can talk until we are blue in the face about Perma-Columns etc. but you need to compare the capacities of the available products versus the loads you building imparts.

 

[383]

All the pretty windows and patio aint going to add up to much in 20 years if those sections decay off at ground.

What kind of posts are you using that rot off in 20 years? I work for a company that has been building post frame buildings since 1964, and haven't had a problem yet. When we celebrated our 50th anniversary in 2014, we found and took pictures if the first post frame barn that the company built in '64. The original posts are still fine.

I'm not saying that concrete won't last longer than wood, but there is no reason that a properly constructed post frame building shouldn't last a lifetime. Just remember that not all pressure treated wood is the same.

If money wasn't a consideration when I built my post frame shop I would have used Perma-columns, but I'm not losing any sleep at night having wood posts in the ground.

 

[DougWil]

What kind of posts are you using that rot off in 20 years? I work for a company that has been building post frame buildings since 1964, and haven't had a problem yet. When we celebrated our 50th anniversary in 2004, we found and took pictures if the first post frame barn that the company built in '64. The original posts are still fine.

I'm not saying that concrete won't last longer than wood, but there is no reason that a properly constructed post frame building shouldn't last a lifetime. Just remember that not all pressure treated wood is the same.

Well there are plenty of owners who's posts have rotted off in 20 years.
In these parts a premium 14" dia, industrially treated phone pole with frequent injection treatments last about 50 years.
When they go, they are completely rotted though.

So how long would you expect a laminated wood post 6x6 or 6x8 of punky, 3rd growth wood, and low end treatment to last?

It is what constitutes a "lifetime" is the question.

There is no reason that a well constructed garage with a conventional footing, and maintenance couldn't last 200-300 years.

The biggest problem with pole barns is burying the one day rotted poles under layers of concrete, insulation and sheeting making replacement next to impossible. In short a disposable building.

 

[n20junkie]

What kind of posts are you using that rot off in 20 years? I work for a company that has been building post frame buildings since 1964, and haven't had a problem yet. When we celebrated our 50th anniversary in 2004, we found and took pictures if the first post frame barn that the company built in '64. The original posts are still fine.

I'm not saying that concrete won't last longer than wood, but there is no reason that a properly constructed post frame building shouldn't last a lifetime. Just remember that not all pressure treated wood is the same.

If money wasn't a consideration when I built my post frame shop I would have used Perma-columns, but I'm not losing any sleep at night having wood posts in the ground.

The chemicals in use in 64' to preserve wood are not in use any more I believe. That will change things.

Very few buildings built today will last "generations" aka 100+ years. A pole barn is the worst choice for the attempt at this goal.

I never said it was a bad choice, just of all the available options, its the cheapest for a reason.

 

[Adittmer]

The building is in northern Wisconsin near Hayward. We get lots of snow in the winter and rain in most every week or two in the other 3 seasons. The poly posts sound like a good idea just limited info and I see I've opened up a can of worms here and most say to just use the perma columns and I'd have to agree myself. At this point cutting costs on the building isn't going to happen without giving up something we really felt was a need item. All Windows are already purchased and all the walk doors/patio door are in my dads building down the road so they can't be returned etc. on a brighter note I did email our bank and asked if we could tack a few more dollars on our loan to cover the footings and she said more or less no problem so we should know more tomorrow and then the call to the building salesmen for another change order lol

 

[1953mercury]

Three words per "pole barns", drainage, drainage, and drainage. If you have decent overhangs on the roof, and good drainage away from the building, you shouldn't have any issues. The original half of my shop is 33 yrs old, and is as strong as the day it went up. Sounds like you should have a nice spot when it's all finished. Mike

 

[DougWil]

Not to continue a ******* match, but don't forget the cost of the remainder of the post. $150=perma-column plus laminated 2x post. Perma-columns (in my case) added $90 per post over a standard laminated post.

So that's saving $50 per post, so roughly half the extra cost you mention. A building this big is going to be expensive regardless, so $1500 on a 30k (or more) building isn't that much. And they use higher PSI concrete than a normal mix as well, which will add to teh cost some. If you can make 30 forms and pour all that concrete in 4 hours, I'd recommend starting your own business to sell the columns. Should be able to retire in no time

You are going to save that $60 of below grade wood post whether you use a precast perma-column or a cast in place version.

And yes you have to purchase and place the concrete and rebar in a drilled hole and cast pier, but it isn't like the precast version climbs off the truck and places itself all at the correct elevation, square and in line.

And a cast in place pier, in a clean hole is going to have better end bearing, skin friction and lateral bearing than a column on a puck with gravel around it.
And poured concrete around a perma column will never bond to it, creating a space for water to enter and freeze, breaking apart that concrete.

 

[rieferman]

Perma columns have uplift anchors from what I remember, and he earth you dig out goes back in. Not gravel or concrete except in certain scenarios.

 

[DougWil]

Perma columns have uplift anchors from what I remember, and he earth you dig out goes back in. Not gravel or concrete except in certain scenarios.

Well then that dirt will never be compacted as well as soil that has settled and sat for thousands of years.

 

[DougWil]

The Wet Set Perma-Columns have published moment capacities. Depending on your pole spacing and with a 17' eave height do they even make unit that has sufficient moment capacity for the moment imparted by your proposed building ?

We can talk until we are blue in the face about Perma-Columns etc. but you need to compare the capacities of the available products versus the loads you building imparts.

That is true. The building may require additional lateral load paths or a stronger connector than perma-column makes. You can always go tube steel.


Alternatively what is the moment capacity of a rotted off wood column?
Zero.

 

[red61cj5]

What kind of posts are you using that rot off in 20 years? I work for a company that has been building post frame buildings since 1964, and haven't had a problem yet. When we celebrated our 50th anniversary in 2014, we found and took pictures if the first post frame barn that the company built in '64. The original posts are still fine.

I'm not saying that concrete won't last longer than wood, but there is no reason that a properly constructed post frame building shouldn't last a lifetime. Just remember that not all pressure treated wood is the same.

If money wasn't a consideration when I built my post frame shop I would have used Perma-columns, but I'm not losing any sleep at night having wood posts in the ground.

I bet in 64 you wee using way better wood coated with chemicals you couldn't buy today without a government contract. And just because you found a few buildings that are fine, doesn't mean a lot of them didn't have rot problems. Everybodys got that one uncle who smoked 3 packs a day for 50 years and didn't get cancer, doesn't make smoking healthy.

 

[readhead]

I'm always amused by the people that say that their posts are just as solid as the day we installed them twenty years ago. How do you know? Do you dig around them every couple of years to inspect them?

I sell and erect metal buildings. Every year or so I get a call from a farmer who says his hay barn collapsed and he wants to go back with steel. When I go out to inspect the site there is a pile of wood and metal roofing. I have seen buildings that are eighty years old and buildings that are twenty years old. They are inexpensive but disposable.

I'm not even sure about the inexpensive. How many times have we seen a build on this forum where someone puts up a pole barn and then proceeds to frame walls inside to finish it off. It probably would have been the same money or less to do a conventional stick frame.

What is apparent is that this conversation will continue for ever. It's right there with Ford vs Chevy or Snapon vs Harbor Freight. In case you're not sure, I'm not for putting wood in the ground but if my neighbor needs help putting up a pole barn I'll be there to help.

 

[jives]

PermaColumns are not simply some prefab concrete post. It is engineered with rebar and, if I recall correctly, 10,000 lb concrete mix.

Stick built with concrete or CMU foundation is not necessarily longer lasting. If you believe that, I'd love to show pics of my old home that by 40 years had a bowing foundation wall and crumbling CMUs. We've seen folks on this forum post about bad foundations. Stick framing came into being not because it was better, but because it required less skilled labor.

Back to the OPs post. Exactly how much more will it cost from Walters for the PermaColumns? We put them in and, yes, we've had to delay electrical. But wouldn't change a thing.