MTW
Well-known member
I get some requests for advise on system setups in my PM box at times, due to some of my previous posts. I like helping when I can, and can make the time, but doing it through PM's causes more work than I can find time for. This makes me answer the same questions over again, and only helps one person. So in the interest of time, I will posts some of them here for others to glean from. OP names removed, unless they want to chime in.
For reference here are some of the prior posts I made.
Upgrading air compressor plumbing, any advice?
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214394
Quincy Compressor Motor Overheating
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212927
Can a Ingersoll Rand T30 have built in "bleed off" ?
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195256
I don't know your name, but I have read several of your links regarding compressors, air lines, etc., and I found them to be very logical. So to that end if you would, I'd like to ask your opinion on some compressor issues. This will be long, but hopefully the set up will allow you to answer quickly and efficiently.
I am building a workshop for a home hobby. I am "re-building" a 79 Jeep Cherokee in my garage now and there is not enough room, so I'm building a 36 x 36 home shop. I'm 60 and I plan on retiring this December, and I'm doing the "re-building" of old cars as my retirement hobby, to keep me out of the house.
I am using my current compressor (about 12 CFM) for things like a DA sander, die grinders, small blast cabinet and some sand blasting as well as the other air tools, and it seems to have a longer run time than I think it should. I added an 80 gallon storage tank to it (it has a 60 gallon tank on the compressor) to help it and it seemed to provide more air to run things longer before the compressor has to kick on, but run it does, especially with the higher usage items. I just can't let that thing run and run in this heat.
Now that I set up my situation, I'll get to the questions.
1. I am looking at some compressors from some forum recommendations on GJ. Here are some I'm looking at:
http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catal...53/8847366.htm
http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/.../p857.html#q_a
http://www.saylor-beall.com/air-comp...unted-vertical
http://www.tptools.com/Champion-Heav...air+compressor
I don't have an unlimited budget, but I only want to buy one more large compressor, I learned that lesson. So if you could help me rate, rank, figure out which one is the better value, something like that. I know they don't all have prices, but I think they are all at or about $2,500.
2. You talked about auto drains in one of your posts. If I'm doing a completely new system, including 1/2" black iron piping with drops to drain as you described, what type of automatic drain would you use?
3. I read that I should have a pressure regulator after the "cool down" run of pipe (20 to 30 ft) on the main line. Do you have a recommendation for that pressure regulator?
4. In my 36 x 36 shop, I plan to run hard pipe to the area where I will do my "wrenching" (and I'll have a pull down hose there), the area where I'll do the welding, to the area where I'll be doing some painting and to the back wall where I'll be doing some blasting (outside). So while not a big area, I am planning on 4 drops, 3 sort of dedicated and one to a hose/reel. Should I put a regulator at each drop, if so which regulator?
5. Is it necessary to use a flex hose to connect from the compressor to the hard line?
6. Would the 1st choice compressor you selected above need a "muffler"? If so where do I get one and which one (or 2 I guess it would be) do you recommend? I liked your comment about putting it on a long wall to reduce noise. That makes a lot of sense. I could put it in the wife's garden garage which will be a 10 x 10 out of my shop with it's own entrance to be completely out of my shop, so I hope "muffling" it won't be that important.
I'm sure there are questions I don't know to ask, but this is what I've come up with so far. I hope I've not asked too much of you. If I have I apologize. If not, I look forward to learning more about what I need to do.
Thanks
Compressor selection. I won't go into the details of specific models you are looking at, but instead offer some generic advise on what I look for in a machine. Budget aside, the best features for a workhorse machine with durability. No free lunch here , if you can't afford the best, then only you can decide what fits your budget and requirements. Instead of just shopping online, check for local distributors and repair shops. Many times they have refurbished industrial models ready to go, and have room to haggle. But more importantly it's good to have a local source for parts, and a good reputation with the local dealer. Say you have an issue with a new machine and need warranty service or have shipping damage, it's a lot better if you don't have to admit you bought it elsewhere. I've had problems with a crusty dealer on a brand support before, then I take my business elsewhere, and gladly. The ones that are workable I try to give all my business, for the support they provide, say you need a pump drawing and parts list for a retired model. On Garagejournal.com I see a lot of folks wanting American Made tools, here is where you can shine. Support your local small business, and get good service in return.
One little trick you could try to save money on shipping, if your after a larger or US made unit. Most large expensive equipment is not in stock (inventory tax cost) and will need to be shipped. Most times the freight is included on the item from the factory to the first destination (Continental US), usually to the dealer or reseller. If you can arrange drop shipment to you as the first destination, then you may be able to avoid freight. But then you are responsible for unloading and claims for any damages incurred during shipment. The same may be said for state taxes, out of state or items for resale are usually taxed at the local level, check with your bean counter for compliance issues.
Look for pressure lubrication. The only manufacturer I know of that offers this in a smaller (≥ 5HP) machine is Quincy. Not all models have it check the specs, have a look here: Industrial Quincy Recips
All other models are splashed lubed and have additional wear on start-up, especially in a cold garage. Low oil cutoff is another good feature, shuts the pump down if the oil is low in the sump.
Second is the pressure unloader. If the unloader malfunctions, you will have starting problems, and likely cause motor burnout or electrical problems if not fixed promptly. Unloaders come in various forms. The one I prefer is the centrifugal unloader mounted to the end of the crankshaft bearing housing (end bell). This type is generally the most reliable, heat resistant and easiest to repair or adjust, everything is external. Qunicy uses a valve in the head to perform this function, and when it mucks up due to heat in the head, your into a head job. Unloaders using a Schrader valve in the tank pressure switch are for consumer units and can be prone to problems. Tank check valves can also be a service item, I prefer a separate check valve into the tank (no additional fittings or taps) so that when it needs service it's easy to do, and easy to obtain.
Speed is an issue on most smaller pumps. Don't get a machine with a 3450 RPM motor, they are loud and fast pumpers, as well as wear out quickly. Make sure your motor is a 1450 RPM, it's a little slower on the output CFM, but the unit life and your sanity will thank you for it. Actual pump speed on these 1450 RPM setups are around 800-900 RPM. If you shop based on advertised CFM delivery and price you will end up with one of these fast, but disposable units. 3450 RPM motors are cheaper than 1450 RPM motors, this is why the price sensitive models come this way, more bang, noise and wear for the buck. For heavy work like sandblasting, get a large tank. My preference is a wide squatty vertical 120Gal tank, lots of storage volume, smaller footprint, and a lower center of gravity for mounting the pump and motor. Some of the brands that I like are Quincy, Champion, Kellog, Saylor-Beall, these are old line names that generally produce some quality industrial units. I've owned most of these brands and find them to be good. Pay attention to the specs, they all offer consumer grade units that aren't up to the reliability and durability of a industrial grade units.
Another feature of industrial units is the tank wall thickness. Budget units are thinner walled and tank life expectancy will be reduced. Most good 2 stage (175PSI) units will have a tank nameplate that list pressure ratings of 200PSI @ 450F. If you don't see a boiler plate with a rating, rest assured you have the thinwall model for consumer use. I have one of these pressure rated units from the 40's that is still going, an old Champion that I rebuilt 30Yr's ago, old Babbitt bearing unit that still chugs along quietly.
Continued below...
For reference here are some of the prior posts I made.
Upgrading air compressor plumbing, any advice?
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214394
Quincy Compressor Motor Overheating
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212927
Can a Ingersoll Rand T30 have built in "bleed off" ?
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195256
I don't know your name, but I have read several of your links regarding compressors, air lines, etc., and I found them to be very logical. So to that end if you would, I'd like to ask your opinion on some compressor issues. This will be long, but hopefully the set up will allow you to answer quickly and efficiently.
I am building a workshop for a home hobby. I am "re-building" a 79 Jeep Cherokee in my garage now and there is not enough room, so I'm building a 36 x 36 home shop. I'm 60 and I plan on retiring this December, and I'm doing the "re-building" of old cars as my retirement hobby, to keep me out of the house.
I am using my current compressor (about 12 CFM) for things like a DA sander, die grinders, small blast cabinet and some sand blasting as well as the other air tools, and it seems to have a longer run time than I think it should. I added an 80 gallon storage tank to it (it has a 60 gallon tank on the compressor) to help it and it seemed to provide more air to run things longer before the compressor has to kick on, but run it does, especially with the higher usage items. I just can't let that thing run and run in this heat.
Now that I set up my situation, I'll get to the questions.
1. I am looking at some compressors from some forum recommendations on GJ. Here are some I'm looking at:
http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catal...53/8847366.htm
http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/.../p857.html#q_a
http://www.saylor-beall.com/air-comp...unted-vertical
http://www.tptools.com/Champion-Heav...air+compressor
I don't have an unlimited budget, but I only want to buy one more large compressor, I learned that lesson. So if you could help me rate, rank, figure out which one is the better value, something like that. I know they don't all have prices, but I think they are all at or about $2,500.
2. You talked about auto drains in one of your posts. If I'm doing a completely new system, including 1/2" black iron piping with drops to drain as you described, what type of automatic drain would you use?
3. I read that I should have a pressure regulator after the "cool down" run of pipe (20 to 30 ft) on the main line. Do you have a recommendation for that pressure regulator?
4. In my 36 x 36 shop, I plan to run hard pipe to the area where I will do my "wrenching" (and I'll have a pull down hose there), the area where I'll do the welding, to the area where I'll be doing some painting and to the back wall where I'll be doing some blasting (outside). So while not a big area, I am planning on 4 drops, 3 sort of dedicated and one to a hose/reel. Should I put a regulator at each drop, if so which regulator?
5. Is it necessary to use a flex hose to connect from the compressor to the hard line?
6. Would the 1st choice compressor you selected above need a "muffler"? If so where do I get one and which one (or 2 I guess it would be) do you recommend? I liked your comment about putting it on a long wall to reduce noise. That makes a lot of sense. I could put it in the wife's garden garage which will be a 10 x 10 out of my shop with it's own entrance to be completely out of my shop, so I hope "muffling" it won't be that important.
I'm sure there are questions I don't know to ask, but this is what I've come up with so far. I hope I've not asked too much of you. If I have I apologize. If not, I look forward to learning more about what I need to do.
Thanks
Compressor selection. I won't go into the details of specific models you are looking at, but instead offer some generic advise on what I look for in a machine. Budget aside, the best features for a workhorse machine with durability. No free lunch here , if you can't afford the best, then only you can decide what fits your budget and requirements. Instead of just shopping online, check for local distributors and repair shops. Many times they have refurbished industrial models ready to go, and have room to haggle. But more importantly it's good to have a local source for parts, and a good reputation with the local dealer. Say you have an issue with a new machine and need warranty service or have shipping damage, it's a lot better if you don't have to admit you bought it elsewhere. I've had problems with a crusty dealer on a brand support before, then I take my business elsewhere, and gladly. The ones that are workable I try to give all my business, for the support they provide, say you need a pump drawing and parts list for a retired model. On Garagejournal.com I see a lot of folks wanting American Made tools, here is where you can shine. Support your local small business, and get good service in return.
One little trick you could try to save money on shipping, if your after a larger or US made unit. Most large expensive equipment is not in stock (inventory tax cost) and will need to be shipped. Most times the freight is included on the item from the factory to the first destination (Continental US), usually to the dealer or reseller. If you can arrange drop shipment to you as the first destination, then you may be able to avoid freight. But then you are responsible for unloading and claims for any damages incurred during shipment. The same may be said for state taxes, out of state or items for resale are usually taxed at the local level, check with your bean counter for compliance issues.
Look for pressure lubrication. The only manufacturer I know of that offers this in a smaller (≥ 5HP) machine is Quincy. Not all models have it check the specs, have a look here: Industrial Quincy Recips
All other models are splashed lubed and have additional wear on start-up, especially in a cold garage. Low oil cutoff is another good feature, shuts the pump down if the oil is low in the sump.
Second is the pressure unloader. If the unloader malfunctions, you will have starting problems, and likely cause motor burnout or electrical problems if not fixed promptly. Unloaders come in various forms. The one I prefer is the centrifugal unloader mounted to the end of the crankshaft bearing housing (end bell). This type is generally the most reliable, heat resistant and easiest to repair or adjust, everything is external. Qunicy uses a valve in the head to perform this function, and when it mucks up due to heat in the head, your into a head job. Unloaders using a Schrader valve in the tank pressure switch are for consumer units and can be prone to problems. Tank check valves can also be a service item, I prefer a separate check valve into the tank (no additional fittings or taps) so that when it needs service it's easy to do, and easy to obtain.
Speed is an issue on most smaller pumps. Don't get a machine with a 3450 RPM motor, they are loud and fast pumpers, as well as wear out quickly. Make sure your motor is a 1450 RPM, it's a little slower on the output CFM, but the unit life and your sanity will thank you for it. Actual pump speed on these 1450 RPM setups are around 800-900 RPM. If you shop based on advertised CFM delivery and price you will end up with one of these fast, but disposable units. 3450 RPM motors are cheaper than 1450 RPM motors, this is why the price sensitive models come this way, more bang, noise and wear for the buck. For heavy work like sandblasting, get a large tank. My preference is a wide squatty vertical 120Gal tank, lots of storage volume, smaller footprint, and a lower center of gravity for mounting the pump and motor. Some of the brands that I like are Quincy, Champion, Kellog, Saylor-Beall, these are old line names that generally produce some quality industrial units. I've owned most of these brands and find them to be good. Pay attention to the specs, they all offer consumer grade units that aren't up to the reliability and durability of a industrial grade units.
Another feature of industrial units is the tank wall thickness. Budget units are thinner walled and tank life expectancy will be reduced. Most good 2 stage (175PSI) units will have a tank nameplate that list pressure ratings of 200PSI @ 450F. If you don't see a boiler plate with a rating, rest assured you have the thinwall model for consumer use. I have one of these pressure rated units from the 40's that is still going, an old Champion that I rebuilt 30Yr's ago, old Babbitt bearing unit that still chugs along quietly.
Continued below...