Compressor experts: loss of flow w/ upgrade

[azchrisf]

Hey guys,
I switched out a 1/2 leader to 1/2 filter/regulator to a 3/4 leader (size of tank outlet) and 3/4 filter regulator for more air tool power (max flow). I also added a 3/4 tee directly after so the 50ft hose reel will get the most flow first. The manifold gets what's left since it's auxillary stuff like blowguns.

However, since doing this 3/4 upgrade both me and my friend feel like the tools don't have as much oomph as they did. Pressure is same at 120psi feed.

What did I do wrong?

 

[American Locomotive]

The only way to see what's going on is to make up a little adapter at the tool end and see what the pressure is doing when using the tool.

 

[senlow]

The problem is most likely a restrictive filter/regulator. Also, check the ball valve and fittings for restriction. Although they are threaded for 3/4 NPT, they may have undersize bores. By the way, it's best practice to run the high flow straight out and use the tee for the low flow. In other words, the high flow outlet and the manifold should swap places.

 

[larry_g]

The problem is most likely a restrictive filter/regulator. Also, check the ball valve and fittings for restriction. Although they are threaded for 3/4 NPT, they may have undersize bores. By the way, it's best practice to run the high flow straight out and use the tee for the low flow. In other words, the high flow outlet and the manifold should swap places.

I concur with the regulator/filter not having the flow rating you need. Look up the specs on the regulator. You will see a lot of regulators that have the option of 1/4, 1/2 , and 3/4 thread sizes and flow does not change with pipe size of the inlet/outlet. If that is a regulator on the right end of the manifold then I guarantee it is to small for what your doing. In the pneumatics control world there are lots of instrument regulators that have very little flow ratings and that looks to be what you have at the end of the manifold.

On edit, You have a ball valve at the end of the manifold. Open it up and record the pressure at the regulator. If it drops a lot then the restriction is in the regulator. If it drops a little then you have restrictions in the manifold. Having the manifold made as it is from billet we can only guess the size of the internal passages in it. Also pay attention to the pressure reading at the regulator when running an air hog tool. If it drops a lot then it also makes your regulator suspect of being to restrictive. If you have a tank pressure guage before the regulator then note the difference when things are flowing.

Me, I have no regulator at the tank. I run the system at a 120-150psi cutin/cutout. If necessary I regulate at the point of use.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[sberry]

If you are using the blue hose after the reg you have added an extra qd in series. People worry about them obsessively then use several.

 

[Jbullfrog]

The filter looks small for even a 1/2" plumbed system.

 

[azchrisf]

I'll look and see what pressure I'm getting at the tool, and also the flow rating for the regulator: Max. Supply Pressure: 250 PSI/ Max. Operating Pressure: 0-150 PSI
10 Micron Particulate Element / Flow Rate: 180 SCFM @ 90 PSI

Do you guys have a suggestion for a 3/4 regulator/seperator combo?

The Tee right after the regulator going downwards goes to a 50 foot hose reel right below, the straight part of the tee is going to the manifold - the manifold is just for small lines and low flow things (like blowguns and air chucks). The valve on the end of the manifold (which is now for relieving pressure off the system when servicing) is where I originally had the hose reel hooked up when it was straight piped into the manifold after the regulator when it was 1/2.

The regulator on the manifold is for down pressuring for a blowgun, that's all thats attached to it. Main pressure (175 psi down to 120) is regulated by the regulator on the wall right after the 3/4 leader from the tank.

 

[sberry]

Is it hurting anything? With most 3x8 reels it takes about 130 in to get 90 at the end with heavy 1/2 impact. The gage could be off too. Another thing is expectations, was working till you fix it better, expect some amazing leap and it's all the same. Without real test it's simply expectation.

 

[MattT]

The filter and reg look like 1/2" body size, at most, and I doubt they'll flow anywhere near that claimed 180 SCFM @ 90 psi. That's almost certainly the problem.

Running the reel of the branch of the tee isn't best practice but I doubt it's causing enough pressure drop to be noticeable.

 

[American Locomotive]

I will agree that the regulator seems small for a 3/4" device. 180 SCFM sounds like a lot, but it's meaningless without knowing the pressure drop. Are they talking about 180 SCFM with 250 PSI supply and 10 PSI outlet?

Do you have a model number and manufacturer for it?

 

[sberry]

The t is so big it won't matter. The reg idea is interesting but seems like that hi rating is going to make it irrelevent. As for passing air,,, what does a regulator do? It restricts air flow to reduce pressure

 

[The Cobbler]

I/'m guessing the reg has more restriction than the previous.
the only eway to know is rig up a pressure gauge at the tool and see what your pressures are with each reg.

 

[MacMcMacmac]

No offense, but is the flow direction correct through both regulator and filter?

 

[azchrisf]

I will agree that the regulator seems small for a 3/4" device. 180 SCFM sounds like a lot, but it's meaningless without knowing the pressure drop. Are they talking about 180 SCFM with 250 PSI supply and 10 PSI outlet?

Do you have a model number and manufacturer for it?

I will agree that the regulator seems small for a 3/4" device. 180 SCFM sounds like a lot, but it's meaningless without knowing the pressure drop. Are they talking about 180 SCFM with 250 PSI supply and 10 PSI outlet?

Do you have a model number and manufacturer for it?

PneumaticPlus SAU420-N06G-MEP Compressed Air Filter Regulator Combo 3/4" NPT - Metal Bowl, Manual Drain, Bracket, Gauge

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JNCT30I/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Also - same pressure at tool as supply. When in operation at 140psi supply, pressure at regulator gauge is 115-120, 105 at tool. This is an air hungry IR 2135timax. This is 50ft of 1/2 inch hose on a DeWalt reel.

 

[Laminar]

PneumaticPlus SAU420-N06G-MEP Compressed Air Filter Regulator Combo 3/4" NPT - Metal Bowl, Manual Drain, Bracket, Gauge

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JNCT30I/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Also - same pressure at tool as supply. When in operation at 140psi supply, pressure at regulator gauge is 115-120, 105 at tool. This is an air hungry IR 2135timax. This is 50ft of 1/2 inch hose on a DeWalt reel.

Is this with the regulator set to 140 or more? If so than it has excessive pressure drop.

 

[azchrisf]

Yes. So the question is where is the pressure drop... but at the same time it's 50 feet of hose.

 

[Laminar]

Yes. So the question is where is the pressure drop... but at the same time it's 50 feet of hose.

A pressure drop of 20 to 25 PSI across the regulator is too much. I would say that the regulator is the problem.

 

[sberry]

Its got to pressure drop or no air would move. You have 140 in, 120 at reg and 105 at a tool takes 90,,, what is the problem? It would be losing 30# or more on 3/8 hose. Set at 115 or 120 and only 10 or 15# drop is good, the 1/2 hose is good. Its letting the in to the reg drop a little more, less resistance.

 

[sberry]

A pressure drop of 20 to 25 PSI across the regulator is too much.

Re read, it isn't across the reg, that's the difference between the supply, before the reg and the final. What is the regulator sposed to do here,,, why is in there if you simply want to pass full pressure thru?????

The problem here is no problem and some imagination on the loose. Already delivering 15 over to the tool with only 10 or 15 loss, doesn't get much better than that.
Problem is replacing something that was working and expecting some leap for some reason. You don't see it then the friend adds his 2 cents to sound agreeable and now something is wrong.

 

[American Locomotive]

140 inlet to the regulator, 115 at the regulator output and 105 at the tool sounds really good to me.

Are you sure you just didn't have the old regulator at a higher pressure?

 

[MattT]

140 inlet to the regulator, 115 at the regulator output and 105 at the tool sounds really good to me.

25 psi drop at ~30 CFM for a reg that is supposed to flow 180 CFM is really ****. That's the OPs problem right there.

The 10 psi drop downstream of the reg sounds about right for 1/2" hose and a euro, or larger, quick connect.

 

[pcmeiners]

Betting on the regulator/ filter causing less flow. On all my setups I get name brand and over sized filter /regulators. If you go to the Parker pneumatic site, look at different regulators and filters and the amount of loss for each item from graphs. If you analyze the graphs it show you are better off buying over sized units, such as 1" sized units, adapted down to 3/4". If those are Chinese filter/ regulators there is no recourse so they do not give damn if there engineering is off.

 

[American Locomotive]

25 psi drop at ~30 CFM for a reg that is supposed to flow 180 CFM is really ****. That's the OPs problem right there.

The 10 psi drop downstream of the reg sounds about right for 1/2" hose and a euro, or larger, quick connect.

His inlet pressure to the regulator is 140 PSI. He has it set to ~115.

 

[azchrisf]

No inlet pressure is 175psi,regulator is set to 140. I am swapping to an ARO one piece filter/reg combo. 230 scfm. At least we know that has been pressure tested, not just upsized fittings or a claimed number. Yes on the high flow fittings,so everything makes sense.

Thank you guys for your help especially pcmeiners and MattT!

 

[azchrisf]

Pcmeiners and MattT were correct.
I swapped to an ARO 3/4 filter/regulator combo and the size difference is staggering. There is now only a 5psi drop at the regulator and tools feel much better. Upon looking at the regulator a little, it's threaded for 3/4 but inside it necks down to what looks like 1/2, and even that is half restricted by some block.

I truly appreciate the help guys!