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Compressors - CFM vs. 1-2 Stage

KGorney

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Which is a more important factor when shopping for a compressor that will see a lot of high volume air work such as sandblasting, CFM rating or 2 stage.
IR has a 5 HP, 60 gal, single stage compressor which claims to deliver 18.1 CFM@90 PSI for $849. At the same time, a nice IR two stage, 80 gal, 5 HP, at $1249 only delivers 14.3 CFM 2 175 PSI. The two stage delivering 24 CFM is 80 gal, 7.5 HP and prices at $2299. All are rated for continuous duty.
It seems to me, as far as air delivery, the single stage unit is the best deal.
 
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VinnieCap

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I am in the same boat... considering the first two you mentioned. The 5 hp 1-stage or 2-stage.

But depending on where you are located the prices for each compressor are lower than you mentioned at Tractor Supply.
 
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KGorney

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The closest Tractor Supply is about 200 miles away, so that really isn't a good option unless it's several hundred dollars cheaper.
 

bmwpower

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The first compressor you talk about is an SS model. I've heard bad things about the pumps on those compressors. The pump is of a lower quality even if it does put out the rated CFM.

I'm going with a 2 stage when the time comes.
 

kartracer55

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I have a single stage 5hp compressor and it puts out more air than comparable 2 stages, while still running slower. Its an eaton, and they use a 7.5hp pump which is turned slower than normal by a 5hp motor. So, while I sacrifce being able to pump up to 175psi, I have more air at 90, which is all I really care about. A 2stage will be more efficient, but not by leaps and bounds... the single stage made more sense for me.

Jim
 

arkracing

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will the 2 stage deliver more CFM @ 90psi?? (the rating of 14.3CFM for the 2 stage you gave was for 175psi, and the 18.1 CFM for the single stage was @ 90)

I'm not even sure what you would ever need 175psi to run (most air tools run @ 90psi, painting with HVLP about 15-35psi, etc. etc.)
 
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KGorney

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arkracing said:
will the 2 stage deliver more CFM @ 90psi?? (the rating of 14.3CFM for the 2 stage you gave was for 175psi, and the 18.1 CFM for the single stage was @ 90)
I can't find any specs for delivery at 90 psi for that model.
 

bmwpower

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Having to tank pump up to 175 psi allows you more psi for use. When comparing 2 compressors - 1 stage and 2 stage - assuming the tank size is the same.... You have much more air packed into a tank at 175 psi than at 135 psi....ie, reserve.

IIRC, 2 stage pumps pump up quicker than a 1 stage pump. Quick recovery makes it easier to use air hungry tools.
 

cc_rider

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It is my understanding that two-stage units are preferred for higher pressure, while multi-cylinder single stage units are preferred for higher CFM. In a two stage unit, the higher pressure piston is usually smaller in diameter, to generate the higher pressure without undue stress.

I have a four-piston CH unit with a 5 Hp motor. I didn't choose it per se; I liberated it from our shop when the new one arrived. It works well, but it rarely even comes on since it's kind of overkill for me.

I don't think the usual compressed air applications require more than 90 psi, so the higher pressure of a two stage unit is probably wasted.

c.
 

HoosierBuddy

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KGorney said:
Which is a more important factor when shopping for a compressor that will see a lot of high volume air work such as sandblasting, CFM rating or 2 stage.
IR has a 5 HP, 60 gal, single stage compressor which claims to deliver 18.1 CFM@90 PSI for $849. At the same time, a nice IR two stage, 80 gal, 5 HP, at $1249 only delivers 14.3 CFM 2 175 PSI. The two stage delivering 24 CFM is 80 gal, 7.5 HP and prices at $2299. All are rated for continuous duty.
It seems to me, as far as air delivery, the single stage unit is the best deal.

A couple of thoughts:

Your 80 gallon tank holds 10.7 Cubic feet of air under pressure. To drop the tank from 175 to 100, you'd have to take out 55 cubic feet. In other words, the tank pressure would allow your 2-stage compressor to deliver as much or more air at 100 psi for 13 minutes looking at the max ratings.

However, the 13 minutes isn't the whole story, because compressors flow higher CFM's at lower pressures. You'd really need a flow curve to know for sure, and looking at IR's site, I couldn't find it.

Personnally, I've found my single stage oil-less compressor does the job...but it is so loud and obnoxious that I couldn't recommend it. If it was me, I'd go for the quieter compressor...and that will likely be the 2-stage model. We have one at work that is 3 times the output of my home compressor and makes 1/10th the noise.

Phil
 

bmwpower

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cc_rider said:
I don't think the usual compressed air applications require more than 90 psi, so the higher pressure of a two stage unit is probably wasted.

c.

True. But, remember the tank is at 175 and the regulator is set to 90. The tank is at a higher pressure than the regulator for a reason. Higher pressure equals more air reserve.
 
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KGorney

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Thanks for the replies so far.

The tank pressure is higher, meaning more reserve air, but it is still flowing at a lower CFM than the single stage, unless you pay twice the cost to get a comparable flowing two stage.
As far as sound, that has more to do with oil lubed vs oilless, I believe, so getting a oil filled single stage would take care of that.

I'm just playing devil's advocate to get a clear answer as to why it is worth that much more money to go two stage. Anyone who has experience with a single stage, high volume air compressor occasionally running a blaster, please chime in.

Is the extra reserve air resulting from a higher pressure worth the extra $500 - $1000?
Are there other benefits to a two stage over a high volume single stage that make it worth the money, other than the air reserve and the "wow" factor?
How much cycling does that extra reserve air actually save?

I want a compressor that is large enough to handle the work I would use it for, mostly air tools, but occasionally I will be blasting - large and small car parts. Spray painting as well. I don't want to end up spending twice as much as I had too, but at the same time I don't want to be stuck with a compressor that can't keep up.
 

kartracer55

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KGorney said:
Thanks for the replies so far.

The tank pressure is higher, meaning more reserve air, but it is still flowing at a lower CFM than the single stage, unless you pay twice the cost to get a comparable flowing two stage.
As far as sound, that has more to do with oil lubed vs oilless, I believe, so getting a oil filled single stage would take care of that.

I'm just playing devil's advocate to get a clear answer as to why it is worth that much more money to go two stage. Anyone who has experience with a single stage, high volume air compressor occasionally running a blaster, please chime in.

Is the extra reserve air resulting from a higher pressure worth the extra $500 - $1000?
Are there other benefits to a two stage over a high volume single stage that make it worth the money, other than the air reserve and the "wow" factor?
How much cycling does that extra reserve air actually save?

I want a compressor that is large enough to handle the work I would use it for, mostly air tools, but occasionally I will be blasting - large and small car parts. Spray painting as well. I don't want to end up spending twice as much as I had too, but at the same time I don't want to be stuck with a compressor that can't keep up.

To me, deliverable air at 90psi is all that I really cared about when I chose this compressor. Mine delivers 20cfm@90psi CONTINUOS which is more than enough to keep up with most air tools. Ya figure, there is some extra air to be delivered at the higher pressures, but it kicks off at 140 or so. I dont think you can blast continuously on ANY 5hp compressor, but Im going to guess that you would be able to blast for quite a while before my compressor dropped below 90psi

Jim
 

PoorOwner

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The SS5L5 has very good specs and price, but I ended up chosing another brand's 80 gallon 2 stage 175 PSI compressor, 3 cfm less flow @90 PSI. but I know it will be turned on less because the higher pressure has much more capacity.. Maybe the SS5L5 running 100% duty will flow a bit more but I don't want to hear 100% duty.

I have heard the SS series is not as rebuildable as other IR but no personal experience, I would think for home use it would never need to be rebuilt.
 
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W-Cummins

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bmwpower said:
IIRC, 2 stage pumps pump up quicker than a 1 stage pump. Quick recovery makes it easier to use air hungry tools.

No they do not, you think that a 2 stage pump has some magic process that converts it into a perpetual motion machine? IT takes MORE work to compress the gas to the higher pressure not less.

If the 2 stage pump is pumping faster your either putting in more power (HP) or the single stage pump is true junk ( a bad design or trashed rings/valves etc...)

William...
 

bmwpower

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W-Cummins said:
No they do not, you think that a 2 stage pump has some magic process that converts it into a perpetual motion machine? IT takes MORE work to compress the gas to the higher pressure not less.

If the 2 stage pump is pumping faster your either putting in more power (HP) or the single stage pump is true junk ( a bad design or trashed rings/valves etc...)

William...

I'm not saying it takes less work, I'm saying it pumps up quicker. Sure, it may work harder. More work doesn't always equal more time, right?

Don't forget, we don't know the pump speed either which will play a part in how the pump performs.
 
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bmwpower

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KGorney said:
Thanks for the replies so far.

The tank pressure is higher, meaning more reserve air, but it is still flowing at a lower CFM than the single stage, unless you pay twice the cost to get a comparable flowing two stage.
As far as sound, that has more to do with oil lubed vs oilless, I believe, so getting a oil filled single stage would take care of that.

I'm just playing devil's advocate to get a clear answer as to why it is worth that much more money to go two stage. Anyone who has experience with a single stage, high volume air compressor occasionally running a blaster, please chime in.

Is the extra reserve air resulting from a higher pressure worth the extra $500 - $1000?
Are there other benefits to a two stage over a high volume single stage that make it worth the money, other than the air reserve and the "wow" factor?
How much cycling does that extra reserve air actually save?

I want a compressor that is large enough to handle the work I would use it for, mostly air tools, but occasionally I will be blasting - large and small car parts. Spray painting as well. I don't want to end up spending twice as much as I had too, but at the same time I don't want to be stuck with a compressor that can't keep up.

The other benefit to the 2 stage design is most of them have an intercooler. The air is cooled as it passes between the cylinders, letting moisture condense and drop in the tank.

First off, which models are you comparing to the single stage unit? IR makes a couple flavors of compressors at those price points. The Type 30 models and the TS models come to mind...different pumps.
 

W-Cummins

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KGorney said:
Which is a more important factor when shopping for a compressor that will see a lot of high volume air work such as sandblasting, CFM rating or 2 stage.


The key for high volume work is HP and lots of it. Sand blasting on a 5hp compressor is not a good deal ( YES you _can_ do it but it's not any fun) IF you really need high volume use, you need at least a 10hp compressor for sand blasting. Any thing less will be a waste of your time and equipment.

BTW with Karts compressor and my 100lb pressure pot with even a slightly used 1/8" nozzle the machine would be wheezing in under 5 min....

William....
 

the intimidator

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I'd go with the two stage myself for the extra psi and the larger tank. At my neighbors shop he runs a 80 or 120? gal two stage compresser with 3 guy's running impact's and air ratchets all day long. The compresser only kicks on when we start grinding on stuff otherwise mayby two-four times a day it will kick on. I would prefer the higher pressure exspeacly if you plan on long run's or having multiple guy's operating at the same time. I know he has the regulater set at 125psi with a 1.1/4 inch iron main and 25 foot hoses The ir impact gun's (the titanium guns?) scream with that much air flowing to them The only thing I have seen stop one of these gun's was a lug bolt on a old audi I ended up having to heat them up with the torch
 

SteveU

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I have the same compressor as Kartracer only with an 80 gal tank. This thing will pump up and shut off while running a 6" DA sander or any other tool I have other than the die grinder. I bought this for the same reason Jim did, delivered air @90 psi and found it interesting that this comes with a 3/4" outlet while the 5hp 2 stage comes with a 1/2" outlet. The 2 stage has more stored energy in the tank but once it gets to where the pump kicks in it won't do any more than the single stage. Mine kicks in at 110 psi & takes 52 sec to reach 140 psi & shut off so going below 90 psi isn't a problem nor does it run all the time as some would believe. Taking all 4 wheels off removing & replacing all 4 struts then putting it back together the compressor kicked in maybe 5 times & ran a total of under 10 min. For something that will be used in a commercial setting & have several guys using off it the 2 stage would be better but for what I do as a hobbyist this thing rocks.:thumbup:
 

W-Cummins

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bmwpower said:
I'm not saying it takes less work, I'm saying it pumps up quicker. Sure, it may work harder. More work doesn't always equal more time, right?

Don't forget, we don't know the pump speed either which will play a part in how the pump performs.
But the work (power input) is the limiting thing here. If we have 5hp to "work" with, the single stage (lower pressure pump) will pump faster (more air out put) than the higher pressure 2 stage pump as it takes more work to pump to the higher pressure. You only have the 5hp to work with so you can have more pressure _or_ more air you chouse...

The speed (rpm) of the pump is a design choice the engineer makes when he designs the pump. But if we limit the power imput the RPM is also limited due to the design of the pump. There are lots of factors that go into that choice and trade offs too. High rpm (higher CFM) but, more heat and maby operation out of the efficiency range of the pump, shorter pump life, etc.. Slow pump speed then longer life, cooler operation, but lower output.....

BTW the intercooler can be thought as a "feature" of the 2 stage pump or a "requirement" due to the much higher heat input from the higher pressure pumping of the gas.

William....
 
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the dude

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My old compressor was a Max Air that was a three cylinder single stage 60 gallon upright tank set at 135PSI cut off that was "rated" at 18CFM @ 90PSI. It could run a 5 gallon pressure pot blaster for about 10 minutes and then couldn't keep pressure past about 75PSI. It was $1000CAD

The new Devair is a two stage 80 gallon upright that is rated at 20CFM @ 100PSI with a 175PSI cut off. It will keep up with my little blaster. In fact it will shut off while I am blasting. it's pressure lubricated and has a 100% duty cycle at over twice the cost, $2300CAD

My compressor guy convinced me that the 2 stage would be able to keep up with the 100PSI rating where as the single stage would fail as it is too close to the limit of the pumps capacity. That stored air and ability to make greater pressure should allow for the pump to "catch up".

If you look at most of the big compressor (7.5hp and up) almost all of them are two stage. There must be a reason for that.???
 

the dude

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I believe we also have to take in to account the pump design, pulley reduction, efficiency etc when using the 5hp model for the "work". It's like claiming HP on a car engine. That's all fine and dandy at the crank, but as soon as you start going through gear boxes, differentials, and take into account tire size and wieght...the HP numbers mean nothing and what happens down the line. (well they do but you know what I mean)

W-Cummins said:
But the work (power input) is the limiting thing here. If we have 5hp to "work" with, the single stage (lower pressure pump) will pump faster (more air out put) than the higher pressure 2 stage pump as it takes more work to pump to the higher pressure. You only have the 5hp to work with so you can have more pressure _or_ more air you chouse...

The speed (rpm) of the pump is a design choice the engineer makes when he designs the pump. But if we limit the power imput the RPM is also limited due to the design of the pump. There are lots of factors that go into that choice and trade offs too. High rpm (higher CFM) but, more heat and maby operation out of the efficiency range of the pump, shorter pump life, etc.. Slow pump speed then longer life, cooler operation, but lower output.....

BTW the intercooler can be thought as a "feature" of the 2 stage pump or a "requirement" due to the much higher heat input from the higher pressure pumping of the gas.

William....
 

Charles (in GA)

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Blasting in a cabinet, small parts, glass beads, is not something that you will stand and do for ten or fifteen minutes at a time. You will blast some, pause, turn the part, go again, pause, again move or change the part, etc.

A two stage allows you to pump to a higher pressure, the molecules of air are packed tighter and you store more energy. (compressed air is nothing but stored energy) You are drawing off the air thru a regulator at 90 or 100 psi and these molecules jammed together give you the ability to use alot of cubic feet of air at a lower pressure, before the pump kicks in. To store this same energy with a single stage compressor, at its lower pressure might take a 120 to 160 gallon tank, so a two stage allows you to store and produce more air (or the same air) in a smaller package than a single stage would. For most uses, a two stage is the cats meow. If you have special purposes, a high volume pump, single stage, will keep the air moving after you have depleted the tank. Remember, a single stage peaks out NORMALLY at 125 or 130 (while some unusual ones might go higher, they are not something the average joe will walk into a compressor store and find sitting there) With this peak so close to the working pressure of say 100 psi, you don't have much stored energy before the pump kicks in.

Its all a matter of defining your mission........ Just like a hunter selects his rifle depending on what type of game he is hunting....... or a pilot selects the type of airplane he wants to buy based on his anticipated "mission" 90% of the time....... or a car owner selects a car based on the kind of use he expects to give it, commuter only, family car, road car for a salsesman, etc.

Define your "mission" and buy for that. With compressors, buy all you can afford, all you have electricity to operate (amps) and all you have space to install or mount.

Charles
 

mike944

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The 2-stage compressor (the 5hp one), which puts out less volume at 175 PSI, can put out more volume at 90 psi than the other one can, and i'm just talking about the compressor head itself, regardless of the tank size.

I guess i've been out of engineering school too long, because i can't figure out the math very quickly. (well, i'm at work, and i just can't spend too much time on it).

Using the ideal gas laws, but estimating the temperature portion (that's the part i can't seem to calculate correctly) that 175psi compressor will put out around 22-24cfm at 90 psi.

The reason the published CFM is lower, is that much more air has to be sucked into the compressor to fill an identical volume at the higher pressure, therefore, it does it more slowly. When it's allowed to work at the lower pressure you get much more volume.

Ok, that explanation is kind of confusing. How about this: With an empty compressor, when you first turn it on, have you ever noticed how fast the pressure needle moves? It moves much slower when it's nearing the shutoff pressure, right? That's because the pump is working harder, therefore, slower. The single-stage compressor has to be running right near the shutoff pressure all the time to put out 90psi air. The 2-stage on the other hand, is halfway to it's operating pressure, in the "quicker" part of the cycle.

All that just applies to the pump itself. No storage tank. Under normal operating conditions, with the tank fully pumped-up, With the higher pressure one, you also have a huge advantage of the larger tank, pumped up to the higher pressure, is going to be filled with more than twice as many air molecules. so that when you use the air, your short-term draw can be much higher volume, for a longer period of time, before the tank starts to "empty out" and your pressure drops below 90psi.

Bottom line, you'll be much happier with the 2-stage one.

(if anyone out there can correct my math, please do!!)
 

W-Cummins

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ok I must have nothing beter to do....
and also assuming my math is correct:shocking:

The volume change from the operating conditions of a 80 gal tank (10.6944 ft³) are:

Assuming an Isothermal expansion @ 80° f

P1●V1/T = P2●V2/T


175 psi (gauge) to empty
=138.069 ft³ total

175 psi (gauge) to 90 psi (gauge)
=8.6828 ft³

125 psi (gauge) to empty
=101.676 ft³ total

125 psi (gauge) to 90 psi (gauge)
=3.5753 ft³

So the tank holds 36.3930 ft³ more air total at 175 psi (guage) than is does at 125 psi (guage)

And 5.1075 ft³ more air from 175 psi-90 psi vs 125 psi-90psi

Also
Using a more repersentive value (∆T @ 20° f)

175 psi (gauge) to empty
=132.953 ft³

125 psi (gauge) to empty
=97.9088 ft³


So using "Real World"™ conditions:headscrat
of a cold tank 80° f and an expanded temp of 60°f yelds even less air, but would probably approximate the values that you might see the first time you used the air before the compressor started....

William....
 

HoosierBuddy

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I must have even less to do.

175 psi (gauge) to 90 psi (gauge)
=8.6828 ft³

Seems like you can approximate the volume at standard conditions by converting your pressure to atmospheres rather than psi.

85 psi pressure drop/14.7 = 5.78 atmospheres
5.78 X 10.7 cubic feet tank = 61.8 cf

Phil
 
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