Computer in cold garage?

[malibu101]

This is the first winter I will have a computer in the garage. That makes this garage related.
It's an older Gateway with a Gateway flat panel monitor. It's all off unless I'm using it. I heat the garage with a kerosene torpedo when I'm in.
My question- Is it bad for the computer and or monitor to start it up when it's say 20*?
When the temp crosses the dewpoint I get some condensation on heavy metal stuff but I'm not real concerned as I've had a TV and stereo here for years with no problems.
My bigger problem is with normal shop dirt/dust.
Since the 'puter has a hard drive, a part that actually moves/spins, I'm kinda more concerned how it does in "cold" conditions versus just circuit boards in the other electronics.
What have you all experienced?

 

[ddawg16]

I'm assuming the computer is a tower....if so, I don't think you will have a problem.

Condensation usually rears it's ugly head when you warm up the garage and the computer stays cold...then then cold material of it condenses out the moisture in the air....if you turn it on while the garage is still cold, it warms up first thus preventing or at least reducing the issues of condensation.

You can also help by keeping the computer in a cabinet...this will tend to keep down the moisture and also reduce condensation issues.

 

[srmofo]

Its probaly not the best thing for it, but its just an old computer. It may take a few minutes for everything to get warmed up but after that it should be okay. Have you ever left your cellphone in the car all night, only to flip it open and have it respond really slow. I imagine it would be the same. Maybe on those really cold nights just leave it on, or dont start it up until the temps have risen above freezing

 

[mrb]

Its probaly not the best thing for it, but its just an old computer. It may take a few minutes for everything to get warmed up but after that it should be okay. Have you ever left your cellphone in the car all night, only to flip it open and have it respond really slow. I imagine it would be the same. Maybe on those really cold nights just leave it on, or dont start it up until the temps have risen above freezing

its not the device thats responding slow, its the LCD screen.

 

[Identaltech]

I have a old one out in the garage for a few years.
the only thing is the hard drive complains some times.
although my garage never see below freezing.

 

[05firecatf7black]

I got a dell with a lcd in my garage and it's fine. If you leave the hard drive on it will never get cold.

 

[djd99]

The best thing to do is never shut your computer off than that way the you wont have to worry about frying a component. If you have you computer off and your garage is cold just turning it on will fry the motherboard. When ever I order anything computer related I always let it get to room temperature before I install it. just a good practice.

 

[tcianci]

I have had a computer in my garage for years. Sometimes its left on, sometimes its off, never had a problem other than opening it up to upgrade RAM and finding plenty of Bondo dust in it! There is no technical reason for frying a mother board or any other componenet just because you power it up when its cold.

 

[bmwpower]

The best thing to do is never shut your computer off than that way the you wont have to worry about frying a component. If you have you computer off and your garage is cold just turning it on will fry the motherboard. When ever I order anything computer related I always let it get to room temperature before I install it. just a good practice.

+1
leave it on all the time.

 

[Chris Adams]

You know it depends on so many other factors. If the room is dry, it can get lots colder with no problem.

And how cold is cold?
I have had to go on calls to fix computers because the temp in the house fell below freezing. No LCD, and the lifespan of a DVD drive in cold damp areas is very, very short.

Had the drive belts and drive wheels break on computers left in 15-20 degree temps.


It will be an ATX design computer, so you may get by just leaving the power on to the computer. An ATX is never 'dead' unless you remove the power or switch off the PS.
Leaving it on 'standby' will use less power than leaving it on, and keep it much warmer.

On computers left in low teen temperature we left them on at all times, or sometimes they would not post, period, until they warmed up.

And then some never came back. Lost the motherboards. The CPU likes it cold, but cold and damp can break the wafers and break the surface soldering.

An LCD monitor really doesn't like cold. I use old CT monitors, usually 20-22 inch, in the shop. They don't seem to mind cold, but I always leave power to them 24/7 so they have some residual heat.

 

[voetsek]

Computers love cold. They operate better at lower temperatures, heat is their archenemy. It's the accessories that don't do as well. LCD screens, etc. The bid problem is humidity. If you can keep the humidity away and put up with the response time of your monitor, you will be just fine.

 

[Keep]

Computers love cold. They operate better at lower temperatures, heat is their archenemy.

Glad someone else picked this up....computers love cold weather, people spend large amounts of money on ways to keep them cool, from refrigeration units to liquid nitrogen. The colder the better.

OLD as in really old computers complained if you turn them on and off. As you could blow some of the capacitors pretty easily with the power cycles. The computers today do not care one way or another if you turn them on and off.

Things to remember for garage use.

LCD's HATE cold weather, they will be slow to respond and give you some funky colors until they warm up.

Use a good surge protector. With the machine/tools/welders spike occur a lot in the garage and computer power supplies really hate spikes. What ever you do, do not plug a portable heater or any of your power tools into the same surge protector as a computer.

Open up the case once in a while and blow it out, you will be amazed at how fast they will plug up.

 

[e-tek]

Has anyone asked.....
Why do you let it get below freezing? Don't you have stuff that shouldn't freeze in there - spray cans, lube cans, paint, etc? I keep my shop at 7C/48F if I'm not in it.

 

[srmofo]

I dont think that is possible or safe with just a kerosene torpedo heater

 

[Shocker]

Cold will not be the issue. Moisture is. Modern electronics are remarkably resilient. If you have a layer of moisture on the circuit boards, sooner or later you will get it to short out.

 

[malibu101]

I was thinking of just leaving it on, like some of you mentioned.
What is the best way to leave it on but idle? Standby, like Chris A said?

 

[ckgdrums]

If your pc has a standby mode, that would be okay. However, if the slow response on your lcd monitor is an issue for you, set the screen saver to a short time like 5-10 minutes, and let it run.

 

[jmack]

Agree and recommend that you just leave the pc on all the time. Heat is the enemy of computers, not cold. Cold is only an issue for your lcd screen - will make it seem "slow"

 

[malibu101]

The following questions may show that I'm not very computer savvy.
Is there a problem with just leaving it "on".? Meaning just move the mouse and it's ready to go.
If I choose to go to standby-How do I come out of standby?
I don't think I really care about the amount of electric usage since it can't be that much and it's best for the machine.

 

[babzog]

Has anyone asked.....
Why do you let it get below freezing? Don't you have stuff that shouldn't freeze in there - spray cans, lube cans, paint, etc? I keep my shop at 7C/48F if I'm not in it.

(I assume you mean spray cans of paint.. my latex paint is kept in the house.)

My cans freeze in the winter... still seem to work fine.

Is there a problem with just leaving it "on".? Meaning just move the mouse and it's ready to go.

My PCs are left on 24x7... I just shut the monitors off.

 

[Gary S]

Has anyone asked.....
Why do you let it get below freezing? Don't you have stuff that shouldn't freeze in there - spray cans, lube cans, paint, etc? I keep my shop at 7C/48F if I'm not in it.

Simply because heating a garage up 80-90 degrees when nobody is in it just doesn't make sense. It is bad for the environment to waste energy like that and it is bad for my wallet too. I don't store anything in the garage that can't handle the cold.
Last January we reached -44. To have my garage at +48 that morning, I would have to heat it 92 degrees above outside temperature.
I plan to move one of my extra computers to the garage this winter simply because I don't want to throw it away. It definitely won't be turned on when the garage is very cold in the winter, and likely won't be turned on in the summer either. Computers are just another junk device that would keep me from getting anything done when I'm in the garage. I work on computers when I have nothing important to do.

 

[mechamunch]

I was thinking of just leaving it on, like some of you mentioned.
What is the best way to leave it on but idle? Standby, like Chris A said?

I would say you are best off just logging off and turning off the monitor--if you don't mind sucking the electricity while your not around. Keep the fans turning and the hardware cooking and any temperature changes ought to be gradual enough with enough air flowing through that condensation should be kept to a minimum.

As others have pointed out, your computer will love the dry cold...your LCD monitor may not. Know anyone who wants to give away their old CRT?

 

[malibu101]

To the above posts- I take "sensitive" stuff (wax, polish, and such) in the house for the winter. Everything else survives (and works) fine.
My drafty, uninsulated space would be cost prohibitive to constantly keep it above freezing.
I was going to shut down the power button on the monitor.

 

[djd99]

Some of you are correct computer components do love the cold temps when there on, But the real problem is when The motherboard has been sitting in very cold temps and then turned on your most likely going to blow the caps in the board. It's always been known to let any electronic device to warm up to room temp before you use it or you run the risk of blowing them. just leave the puter on, don't worry about logging off and the next time you want to use it it will be ready but don't turn it off.......

 

[Chris Adams]

I would say you are best off just logging off and turning off the monitor--if you don't mind sucking the electricity while your not around. Keep the fans turning and the hardware cooking and any temperature changes ought to be gradual enough with enough air flowing through that condensation should be kept to a minimum.

As others have pointed out, your computer will love the dry cold...your LCD monitor may not. Know anyone who wants to give away their old CRT?

CRT monitors are usually free. Check free sheets and Craigslist. If you were close enough to pick one up I would give you some if you wanted.
I have new ones still in the boxes, nobody wants them.
Used ones up to 22 inches usually go in the trash (Actually, you have to pay to get rid of them).

 

[Chris Adams]

Some of you are correct computer components do love the cold temps when there on, But the real problem is when The motherboard has been sitting in very cold temps and then turned on your most likely going to blow the caps in the board. It's always been known to let any electronic device to warm up to room temp before you use it or you run the risk of blowing them. just leave the puter on, don't worry about logging off and the next time you want to use it it will be ready but don't turn it off.......

Right on the money.


People, 'computers love it cold' is true to a VERY narrow definition of COLD.
They don't like it as cold as a shop gets.They REALLY don't like it damp.
Death for computers.
I've spent enough time fixing computers that have been let get cold and damp and became DEAD.


As to leaving it on, well that works great if you are using a micro board with a 55-75 watt power supply. That sucker will draw 30-45 watts and be happy.

However, if you use computers like mine, 650 watts at idle, you may not want to be leaving it on full time, thus standby.

Worth it to put a small 'space heater' in there. Like a 10 watt bulb inside the case, running all the time.
I have set several up like that, for use in automotive shops that were not heated at night and had those dang grate doors.

 

[Shocker]

Ok, just to clarify some of the capacitor "issues" in the cold. Now if we are talking about wet-tantalum and aluminum capacitors there is a significant problem with them in the cold.

But most computer component capacitors are ceramic.

The effects of cold temperature on capacitor performance is significant. Cold temperature use of ceramic capacitors generally results in a 10% to 20% reduction in capacitance with a 10% to 20% increase in ESR.

ESR is the sum of in-phase AC resistance.

Cold temperatures are considered anything at -55 degrees CENTIGRADE or below. I am pretty sure that is not a common temp to reach (-67 degrees F) in most places most of the time (I am sure there are exceptions and such).

With that being said, the info above is about operation at those temps and less about starting in cold and running it until room temp reaches the desired level.

I will hit the environmental lab tomorrow and run some tests and see what happens.

 

[Chris Adams]

Ok, just to clarify some of the capacitor "issues" in the cold. Now if we are talking about wet-tantalum and aluminum capacitors there is a significant problem with them in the cold.

But most computer component capacitors are ceramic.

The effects of cold temperature on capacitor performance is significant. Cold temperature use of ceramic capacitors generally results in a 10% to 20% reduction in capacitance with a 10% to 20% increase in ESR.

ESR is the sum of in-phase AC resistance.

Cold temperatures are considered anything at -55 degrees CENTIGRADE or below. I am pretty sure that is not a common temp to reach (-67 degrees F) in most places most of the time (I am sure there are exceptions and such).

With that being said, the info above is about operation at those temps and less about starting in cold and running it until room temp reaches the desired level.

I will hit the environmental lab tomorrow and run some tests and see what happens.

Your info is correct, but not germane to the real world garage/shop environment, I'm afraid.

In a shop the moisture is totally uncontrolled, gets damp, gets dry, gets damp, repeat ad nauseum. Then the owner comes in, and flips the power on, with dew all over the motherboard.
The moisture gets inside the ROM drives, ruining the wheels, the belts, the heads. Corrosion on the head kills them pretty fast.

I have seen older computers abused this way for years, and they still worked. I have seen newer units ruined by sitting them too close to a window that is often open. That was in Oregon, Washington and Louisiana.

Best computers for abuse seem to be those old HP towers. The slow ones. They had small power supplies, and sturdy cases and were pretty much bulletproof. I've also seen the 700 series Gateways take abuse and temperatures that would make the designer flinch.

Clones (custom built units) are often more finicky, as they usually are not weather proofed by design, and often have much higher draw power supplies, which is good for computing, bad for running 24/7.


By the way, there are about 100 motherboards in my shop right now, all of them, every major brand, have the older style caps on them. Or 'firecrackers' when they get wet.

 

[travisd]

In a shop the moisture is totally uncontrolled, gets damp, gets dry, gets damp, repeat ad nauseum. Then the owner comes in, and flips the power on, with dew all over the motherboard.
The moisture gets inside the ROM drives, ruining the wheels, the belts, the heads. Corrosion on the head kills them pretty fast.

For a garagePC, the CDROM is probably unnecessary anyway. Unplug it, but leave it in the case to plug the hole.

 

[Kevin54]

The following questions may show that I'm not very computer savvy.
Is there a problem with just leaving it "on".? Meaning just move the mouse and it's ready to go.
If I choose to go to standby-How do I come out of standby?
I don't think I really care about the amount of electric usage since it can't be that much and it's best for the machine.

I wouldn't even worry about "standby". I'd just leave it on and have the screen saver activated. Or mount a cheap webcam to it with the screensaver scrolling to say " the same pic shows up at the police station" and have the cam pointed directly at the computer. Then when somone reads the screensaver the moves the mouse or hits the keyboard, their pic shows up.

 

[Chris Adams]

I wouldn't even worry about "standby". I'd just leave it on and have the screen saver activated. Or mount a cheap webcam to it with the screensaver scrolling to say " the same pic shows up at the police station" and have the cam pointed directly at the computer. Then when somone reads the screensaver the moves the mouse or hits the keyboard, their pic shows up.

OK, that is a cute idea.

Wouldn't work here, they don't read English, but still, totally cool idea.

 

[Chris Adams]

For a garagePC, the CDROM is probably unnecessary anyway. Unplug it, but leave it in the case to plug the hole.

If you leave it in, the drive will die anyway. Put a block off plate if you want, but when I have built computers for guys to use in their shop 100% of them wanted DVD/CD readers.

They want to look at Mitchell's manuals, or Alldata,
I use Mitchell's and my F150 factory service manual on disk, myself.
And/or they want to run DVD rips of the do it yourself shows. I have most the Muscle car Power train shows, and they are great for running in the shop, especially when you are doing something they have done.

Others want to watch regular movies, or ****, or just play CD's.


UGG, MAN CAVE NEED VIDEO.

 

[malibu101]

You guys are bringing up some interesting points.
The PC is as much my jukebox in the garage as it is anything.
It would be more of a pain, but, to dump data into this if the disc drive should fail is just a matter of putting it on the house computer and sending it this PC.
One of the original thoughts rolling through my head was not brought up.
I was thinking more along the lines of the hard drive having a hard time since, like the cd drive, it actually moves/spins. Like spinning an engine on a cold morning-How hard do you think is it on the hard drive? How are they lubed?
This is only a relativly cheap shop computer but of course I don't want to just pi$$ it away. It's still not real cold here but when it does drop down-I'll let you know how it's going.

 

[Shocker]

Chris, please re-read my previous posts. I spoke about the moisture in an earlier post being the problem not the cold. My later post spoke to the affects of cold on capacitors and not moisture.

And I don't agree with your assessment of clones or custom built machines. That statement is very general without much basis. Performance based computers have larger power supplies, basic home systems have smaller whether custom built or not. I have a system here running 24x7 with a 1kw power supply and it has been doing that for over 8 months without problem.

And frankly, no computer is weather proof. There are systems that are designed and built for harsh environments, but those are expensive and not generally available. HP, Dell, Acer etc do not have those available on their websites. The Panasonic Toughbook series is available at a pretty penny.

Even a modern ceramic cap will fry if exposed to excessive moisture. No matter the quality or design unless fully potted.

 

[KenBaker]

I have done thousands to PC Service Calls on every type of equipment and some were outside. PC's and their components actually have ratings on every single component that can usually be found over the Internet. PC Manufacturers actually have an average of 60-70 degree F minimum ratings but obviously work at lower temps. The response time of the monitor drops as the temperature does, as you are seeing. The cold and the moisture have the most affect on the Hard Drives of the PC's. Some newer ones are on a chip and fall outside of this range. I have seen a lot of drives fail to operate until they start to warm up. They have motors and very tight tolerances that are affected by the cold. (As other types of drives also have) Leaving it on may help but most PC's have power usage constraints that pretty much shut down everything in the system. Disabling this for the Hard Drive itself within the CMOS or Power Settings may also help. The main reason that PC's (and other electronic equipment that has Silicon Based Components) are so problematic when they get hot is that Silicon has a negative temperature coefficient which means that its resistance goes DOWN when it gets hot. It then allows more current to pass and can cause a runaway affect once it hits its threshold. PC's definately like to run cooler, but it is up to a point.

Be honest with me, did I sound like a Nerd just then??

 

[saabman]

I have a computer controlled dyno in my garage. It lives there year round. I dont let the garage get below 45 degrees and I bring it up to 60 degrees (and let it stabilize) before turning the PC on. The humidity is very low in the northeast during the winter months.

LCD screens do not like the extreme cold. This is why you are not supposed to leave your GPS unit in your car in such temps.

Chris

Chris

 

[Chris Adams]

Chris, please re-read my previous posts. I spoke about the moisture in an earlier post being the problem not the cold. My later post spoke to the affects of cold on capacitors and not moisture.

And I don't agree with your assessment of clones or custom built machines. That statement is very general without much basis. Performance based computers have larger power supplies, basic home systems have smaller whether custom built or not. I have a system here running 24x7 with a 1kw power supply and it has been doing that for over 8 months without problem.

And frankly, no computer is weather proof. There are systems that are designed and built for harsh environments, but those are expensive and not generally available. HP, Dell, Acer etc do not have those available on their websites. The Panasonic Toughbook series is available at a pretty penny.

Even a modern ceramic cap will fry if exposed to excessive moisture. No matter the quality or design unless fully potted.

Got to agree on the frying thing.
didn't get that from your post on the caps. I must have read it wrong.

We both agree "Water BAD" for computer boards.
Dew is water, thus hot, turning cold, in cold moist air equals bad.

I think you reversed my meaning. on the power supply thing.

We were talking about ways to use less power in the shop, thus perhaps not clones, which usually have bigger/better power supplies than cheap name brands.

True that you could build a low draw power supply in a custom unit, but with 1500 custom units under my belt, I only twice got requests for low power supplies.
Most wanted "more power, Scotty" rather than energy savings.

Which was what I was suggesting, low power for lower electricity costs.

I miss the point on the 'running 1 KW units' for a year? What we were referencing is keeping the energy cost down, thus the low power requirement.

Most my home systems here are 650-850 watts, draw about 400-600 at idle.
My point was that costs too much to just leave on, not a flaw in more powerful power supplys, just more cost to use.

I have a HP that draws 30 watts at idle, vs say the unit I am typing on, 600 watts at idle.
So it would make sense to leave on 24/7.
I leave the server on 24/7 at 600 watts, but most people wouldn't want to waste the power.

Again, low power clones are rare; I have never seen one in 15 years of building, working, on them (except for the two I custom built, and they were running solar, which is why they needed low power draw).

One place to get weather proof computers, not too expensive;
I've worked on them, they were Military Surplus.
Usually low power, low performance, but pretty bullet proof.

I really think we are coming from the same place here, by the way.

 

[Chris Adams]

I have a computer controlled dyno in my garage. It lives there year round. I dont let the garage get below 45 degrees and I bring it up to 60 degrees (and let it stabilize) before turning the PC on. The humidity is very low in the northeast during the winter months.

LCD screens do not like the extreme cold. This is why you are not supposed to leave your GPS unit in your car in such temps.

Chris

Chris

Yup, but I have three LCD screens in my truck, that have to 'live there' all the time.
No, they don't like it cold or hot.

 

[Falcon67]

I think we're solving the wrong problem. I use a laptop and wireless and when I'm done, the laptop comes inside with me. Done deal, no LCD issues or anything else. If your barn is too far, run a cable or a cable and a pair of repeaters ($$$). Space is a premium in my shop already, no place for a PC to set where it won't get full of dirt, chips, etc. and no bench space for a monitor. An old (4-5yr+) desktop with an old op sys on it is an invitation for trouble anyway if you plan to use it for internet access.

I got a flyer yesterday from Dell - a new Vostro 1520 laptop with a dual process, 320G and 3G RAM is $549. That's a bunch of computer right there, maybe faster than your existing desktop. Old PCs are landfill material IMHO.

As for power use - my work Dell D531 laptop has a power brick rated at 65W.

 

[79firebird]

All depends on the comp i find. i had a fue in the shop at my old place a P4 and a amd. fryed the amd as it got a lot hotter then the P4 when running and would get a bit of condensation well running on very cold days. P4 never had a prob as it dident run as hot. most times i just leave them on stand by or sleep mode and havent had a prob yet. ive used my labtop in my shead when it was -6 in there with no probs