computer networking to the garage

[hetkind]

Here is my design question of the day....

The shop/garage is going to be about 300 feet from the house, but we are running two seperate utility trenches, one with conduit from the pole to the shop (currently 220 single phase, with three phase in the planning stage), and one from the house with domestic water, two phone lines, two 110 powerlines, cable (for the TV) and cat 6 ethernet.

My question is how best to tie in my shop computer with the DSL lan in the house. Can I use a router to get the 300 feet? a highpowered wifi? Embarq our DSL provider says get a seperate service, but no open circuits are available.

Howard

 

[Gary S]

Run a Cat 6 plenum cable in your conduit. The length limit for twisted pair ethernet cable is 100 meters. As long as you keep it under that length, you can simply plug it into an empty port on your router or switch and use it at the other end.

 

[popbigguy]

I think,,,,, 300 Ft is the limit that you can go with a cat5E cable. That may not be your best option (?).

 

[mrb]

Run a Cat 6 plenum cable in your conduit. The length limit for twisted pair ethernet cable is 100 meters. As long as you keep it under that length, you can simply plug it into an empty port on your router or switch and use it at the other end.

why in the world would you use cat6 plenum. He is fine with plain old cat5e. Plenum cable has one application -when used in a plenum (air handling space above a drop ceiling is the most common) in a commercial property. Any other use of plenum cable is a waste of money, and time.

You should use a direct burial rated cat5e underground, but if the pull is easy it will be cheaper to just run normal cable and when it craps out in a few years replace it.

If you go a little over the 330ft max, it will still work ok. The distance limitation is not due to signal strength, or transmit power, its due to signal propegation and timing. Exceed the distance by too much and you will have packetloss. Exceed it by a little bit and it will work fine.

 

[nadogail]

Run a Cat 6 plenum cable in your conduit. The length limit for twisted pair ethernet cable is 100 meters. As long as you keep it under that length, you can simply plug it into an empty port on your router or switch and use it at the other end.

300 feet is well within 300 meters. Cat 6 seems to be the way to go.

 

[mackrmnn]

Run a Cat 6 plenum cable in your conduit. The length limit for twisted pair ethernet cable is 100 meters.

Don't use Plenum rated cable in an underground conduit. Plenum rated cable breaks down when it get wet. Get outdoor rated cable. Cat 6 does not give you more distance, it only handles higher frequencies. (I'd use cat 5e. Cat 6 is hard as hell to put connectors on and takes special connectors that you cant buy at Lowes or Home Depot)

FREQUENCY-DISTANCE
Category 5-100 mbps-100 meters (328 feet)
Category 5e-1 Gigabit/sec-100 meters (328 feet)
Category 6- 3 Gigabit/sec-100 meters (328 feet)
Category 6A- 10 Gigabit/sec-100 meters (328 feet)

 

[Torque1st]

Put a hub in the shop where the cable enters then you can have your computer anywhere in the building.

 

[ket-tek]

Check your local codes because in my town you are not allowed to run low-voltage and high-voltage in the same conduit as you mention. And a 300ft parallel run of cat5/6 with 110v can induce some nasty emi and really affect the integrity of your network connection.

I would run a separate 1" pipe for the data/phone/cable.

A basic router from bestbuy or whereever is all you need to share your internet no matter what the dsl company is trying to sell you.

I would hard wire it to the garage that far away, 300ft is no problem for cat5/6. You can add a Wap in the garage later if you want wireless in there also.

 

[goodfellow]

How about a wireless line of sight bridge -- it's easy plug 'n play, stays above ground and is easily upgradeable.

 

[Torque1st]

Placing another conduit is easy. Pulling a new cable to "upgrade" is easy at any time. Running 110 in with the other circuits is a bad thing. Why do you need to pull 110 if you already have 220 or 3-phase in the shop?

 

[jkeyser14]

Cat6 will allow for higher speeds, but having DSL you'd have hundreds of times more bandwidth than you can use if it were for internet (and not computer to computer) use. Regular cat5 or cat5e would do just fine for you as well.

As already stated, it's illegal to run data lines in conduit with electrical conductors, they both need their own lines. So while you are running a separate data conduit for your internet, you mine as well run a cable line for tv too.

 

[toadjammer]

There is a real possibility that burried conduit will get water in it. My electrician stated that the conduit was there for protecting the wire more than being water tight, so when running wires through make sure they are rated to be in a moist area.

Running a second power source to a builing starts to create confusion later on. Sure you will know what is what right now, but new owners might not be so lucky. And if you do decide to run temporary wires out to the building till your larger supply is in place I would make sure you can remove it when you upgrade and connect the wires into the new service. And as stated above it would be a real danger for you to run the 110v witht the low voltage wires, if they both happen to get damaged any equipment will fry.

 

[theWORLDSaNAIL]

Your best option is to plant a small water tight box in your run this box need a water tight door for access and run a slice of the 110V house phase to it use this box to put in a cheap $25 dollar network switch the box should be place about 3/4 the distance to the garage the will keep phase delay of the network minimal while keeping the wire antenna effect of the cable down. This is just he the humble opinion of Electrical Engineer

 

[Shocker]

I would look into a Linksys WRT54G. They are pretty cheap these days and still available. Make sure it is just the plain WRT54G and not the N or something like that.

You can apply an alternate firmware to it that will allow you to boost the signal from the radio. It significantly increases the range of the wireless. Should reach that far without a lot of trouble as long as there is not a ton of stuff in the way.

Another alternative is to look into one of the Cisco wireless routers, they have a very strong radio in them and go over 500 feet through all kinds of walls.

 

[FunfDreisig]

Wires for communications are so last century

FWIW Our only internet access is via cellular USB modem shared via an Airport with our other computers. The only Ethernet cable we have is the one connecting the Canon printer to the Airport. I have literally boxes of Ethernet cables I''ll be giving away via FreeCycle when the garage is completed and I clean out the storage bins.

The only wires I'm running to my garage are for power. And I may even avoid that by installing solar. Private WiFi is good for thousands of feet with simple/cheap directional antennas. The only reason we still have a telephone land line is to support a FAX during construction (sadly our suppliers are not very computer literate).

Funf Dreisig

 

[mikeyr]

wires may be last century but I just ran wires to my garage a month ago.

Wireless is SLOW !!! wires are FAST.

If all you do is google stuff and maybe watch youtube, go with wireless, if you actually use your computer to do work wire it up, you are under the length limit (barely) and it will work fine.

And before someone tells me that wireless is fast, try moving very large multi-gig files out to your garage. Wireless is fine for some stuff, and I have wireless in the house for the wife and kids but for me, I only plug into real wires for real speed.

 

[mrb]

why are you guys making this so complicated for the guy with wireless routers, PtP wireless bridges, a 'hub' midspan, cat6 plenum cable, etc? All he needs to do is run a $20 piece of cat5e to his garage and he will be fine. It needs to be in conduit, and it really should be direct burial type cable, but as long as he goes into it knowing he will have to replace it after a few years, its fine.

 

[hetkind]

Gentlemen,

Fine answers so far...let me further explain my design goals here...I am up on the side of a mountain in the national forest, surrounded by 600,000 acres of national forest land. Quite beautiful.

The 110 circuits and the communication lines will be in seperate conduit. One 110 line will be fed from the house and will provide power for external building and walkway lights. The other 110 line will be fed from the shop and will provide convenience outlets on the road from house to shop.

Once the wiring is installed, I hope it will last many years since it will be below frost line AND there is a stream crossing. Personally, I like the idea of a switch acting as a repeater half way.

I was involved in network design years go (token ring and such), but have not kept up to date

The shop will be two levels with living space and a lounge area (think tavern) on top. We might entertain from time to time.

Howard

 

[gophergrove]

Howard-

The 100 meter limit previously mentioned is the total link length of the ethernet line including any patch cords between network devices. In your case you will have a patch cable from your current router to the patch panel (wall jack) terminating the underground cable, the underground cable, then another patch cable from the patch panel (wall jack) in the garage to the garage switch. Normally, the cable between patch panel and wall jacks should be less than 90 meters leaving 10 meters total for both patch cables.

You didn't mention where your current router is in your home, is it close to where this new line will be leaving your house? If not you'll probably want to purchase 2 switches, have one just inside the house where this line starts and one at the garage entrance.
As was previously stated you can exceed the 100 meters but it will affect the performance of the line. If all you'll be using it for is web surfing and email, then you don't need fast ethernet or gigabit performance so you'll be fine if you go over the length limit a bit.
When installing the cables pay close attention to how it is installed, don't pull to hard, no kinks or tight bends - since you will be testing the distance limit you don't want to introduce reduced performace with poor cable handling.
Using CAT6 can help but only if it is installed properly and with all components in the link rated CAT6 - I'd just use CAT5e.

Also, you might want to pull a 2nd RG6 in case you want to send a signal back to the house from the garage in the future. Your other option is to use a composite cable which has 2CAT5e & 2RG6 cables bundled in an outer jacket. It makes it much easier to pull and the individual cables are protected by a 2nd outer jacket.

Whichever way you end up going make sure all signal cables (phone, ethernet, & coax) are protected by surge protectors leaving the house AND entering the garage.

-Mark

 

[mrb]

I highly recommend against the composite or bundled cable. Its more expensive than the individual cables, they dont make an underground version of it, and if one of the cables craps out from moisture you cant pull it out and replace.

The midspan switch is a neat idea, but you will end up spending quite a few bucks on an enclosure that will actually be waterproof.

If the run is really 300ft worth of pipe, i would just pull cat5 and be done with it. If its say 450ft, you do need to look into alternate solutions.

You really should use flooded direct burial cable in the underground lines, especially since this is crossing a stream. No matter what you do, its going to end up filling with water. I can help you with getting this cable if you need, PM me.

With the long runs, make sure you oversize the conduit. I recommend 1-1/4in for the low voltage stuff.

If you do end up putting a switch midspan, you can use power over ethernet to power it from one end, you dont need to install 120v where the switch is. I would only do it as a last resort though.

 

[DCortez]

Gel filled is the way to go. I'm not sure if you can get cat6 in gel, but know you can in cat5. Last I checked, the gel is flammable, so don't run it inside the buildings any more than you have to.

6 is 23 gauge
5 is 24 gauge
328', 100 meters, is the max distance from end to end.
have lots of paper towels when you terminate, the stuff gets everywhere.
if you can, leave a pull string (greenlee from home depot $7 for a small canister)
keep the conduit bends to the very minimum

good luck

 

[FunfDreisig]

.....I was involved in network design years go (token ring and such), but have not kept up to date....

This is why I would go wireless. Like you, I've seen network standards/wiring go out of date a couple of times. I have boxes of high end copper coax network cabling and connectors to prove it

As a computer geek since the first computers that didn't use vacuum tubes I've always dreamed of building a fully wired house: telephone, network, video, audio, etc. When I built the cabin a few years ago I installed Cat5e and a small communications cabinet for the router, etc. and have NEVER even hooked it up. Now that I'm building the garage and will build the main house RSN.... I've given up most of that wired dream. The wired technology changes too fast and wireless technology is getting better every day. I'm not even running phone wires to the garage. let alone Cat5e, etc.

BUT... if you chose to go with wires, just make sure you install the conduit and wires so the wiring can be easily replaced by you (or the future owner) when the technology changes yet again

Funf Dreisig

 

[Joe92GT]

The problem with wireless is signal stability. For anything besides web browsing, it is simply not optimal. Especially if you are running client/server apps (I would guess not).

Wired is not dead. What is dead or dying is having multiple wires, soon it will be one cable carrying phone, cable tv signal, and internet/lan.

 

[Jaguar Fan]

The last time I checked, I thought the only difference between cat5e and cat6 was that cat6's twists per linear foot were extremely consistent relative to cat5e -- they are both very consistent, but 6 is moreso - and requires different manufacturing equipment to achieve the twist consistency. While the raw material input to cat5e and cat6 cables are the same, the retail price of cat6 is substantially higher than cat5e.

And, I also thought there were no consumer applications as yet where cat6 offers any advantage relative to cat5e (even running Hi-Def TV over cat5e vs. cat6: they perform identically). Yes, in a 100GB router, there is a difference, but that isn't close to a consumer application. Even contemplating future-proofing, in a residential environment (especially one inside a national forest!), cat6 provides absolutely no benefit but costs more. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help.

Is my knowledge out of date on this?

 

[goodfellow]

wires may be last century but I just ran wires to my garage a month ago.

Wireless is SLOW !!! wires are FAST.

If all you do is google stuff and maybe watch youtube, go with wireless, if you actually use your computer to do work wire it up, you are under the length limit (barely) and it will work fine.

And before someone tells me that wireless is fast, try moving very large multi-gig files out to your garage. Wireless is fine for some stuff, and I have wireless in the house for the wife and kids but for me, I only plug into real wires for real speed.

I don't know about that Mike. I run Skype in full video conferencing mode wirelessly from my garage through my Apple Time Capsule bckup/router/hub all the time. It's virtually flawless video and audio. I also use my the Time Capsule to serve up music videos and my I-Tunes music collection. I regularly copy entire CD's with PDF data to the Timecapsule and it's darn fast. The only wires left in the house are from the Timecapsule to my printers and DSL network interface.

I'm working entirely with new Apple equipment now, so that may make a difference.

 

[Keep]

Wow reading some of the replies makes my head hurt.

Go to homedepot, buy the black plastic pipe used for irrigation systems.

Get a box of 1000ft regular cat5e cable.
Bury the pipe to the new shop.
Grab your shop vac and **** a pull string through.
Run TWO lines through the pipe. Always have a spare for long runs.
Place a 4 port network switch at each end of the run. (They cost around $10) That should keep you under the 328 ft limit for cat5e.

Run the rest of your cable as needed.

You do not need any special cable, expensive conduit etc. As long as both ends of the pipe are above ground and dry you will be fine.

If you want to make sure things stay dry grab some spray foam and spray both ends full. Of course this will keep you from running anything else in there.

 

[His200HerScout]

Wow reading some of the replies makes my head hurt.

Go to homedepot, buy the black plastic pipe used for irrigation systems.

Get a box of 1000ft regular cat5e cable.
Bury the pipe to the new shop.
Grab your shop vac and **** a pull string through.
Run TWO lines through the pipe. Always have a spare for long runs.
Place a 4 port network switch at each end of the run. (They cost around $10) That should keep you under the 328 ft limit for cat5e.

Run the rest of your cable as needed.

You do not need any special cable, expensive conduit etc. As long as both ends of the pipe are above ground and dry you will be fine.

If you want to make sure things stay dry grab some spray foam and spray both ends full. Of course this will keep you from running anything else in there.

I'm no electrician, but my electrical inspector wouldn't sign off on a permit for putting romex in a conduit designed for water (it was only a 12" section that was on the outside of the wall). All he said was "What's that? You got an electrical line in a water pipe. It has to be gray pipe. White & gray PVC are probably the same material, but it's what the code says."

Granted, that was a lighting circuit, not low voltage communication wire, so he may very well be ok putting cat5 in an irrigation pipe. But I'm just throwing that out there from experience...

 

[cashishift]

The midspan switch is a neat idea, but you will end up spending quite a few bucks on an enclosure that will actually be waterproof.
.

on top of this.. if the switch would ever need to be reset (sometimes they do) you gotta go open up your waterproof box.. which eventually could lead to that seal degrading over time and water getting into your switch.

I am sure they make wiring designed for this.. you'd think so anyways. Also, if you run the cable, make 2 or 3 runs.. ya never know if something will happen to that one line, include a service loop at either end also.

 

[cashishift]

This is why I would go wireless. Like you, I've seen network standards/wiring go out of date a couple of times. I have boxes of high end copper coax network cabling and connectors to prove it

As a computer geek since the first computers that didn't use vacuum tubes I've always dreamed of building a fully wired house: telephone, network, video, audio, etc. When I built the cabin a few years ago I installed Cat5e and a small communications cabinet for the router, etc. and have NEVER even hooked it up. Now that I'm building the garage and will build the main house RSN.... I've given up most of that wired dream. The wired technology changes too fast and wireless technology is getting better every day. I'm not even running phone wires to the garage. let alone Cat5e, etc.

BUT... if you chose to go with wires, just make sure you install the conduit and wires so the wiring can be easily replaced by you (or the future owner) when the technology changes yet again

Funf Dreisig

plain old 10/100 networking wired hasn't changed in YEARS. Yes, gigabit has come on.. but the premise behind it has been around since the late 90's when the first star topology networks like you see today were pulled.

 

[Ira]

What about using shielded cable? If he's running parallel and within a foot or so of the 110/220 lines, does he need to use shielded cable?

From what I've seen, a lot of people run an extra Cat5e for telephone lines.

 

[mrb]

What about using shielded cable? If he's running parallel and within a foot or so of the 110/220 lines, does he need to use shielded cable?

From what I've seen, a lot of people run an extra Cat5e for telephone lines.

absolutely dont use shielded cat5e. ever. Will cause 10x the problems it will solve.

 

[FunfDreisig]

....Wired is not dead. What is dead or dying is having multiple wires, soon it will be one cable carrying phone, cable tv signal, and internet/lan.

I think that was my point

plain old 10/100 networking wired hasn't changed in YEARS. Yes, gigabit has come on.. but the premise behind it has been around since the late 90's when the first star topology networks like you see today were pulled.

See Joe92GT's quote above -- then ask yourself what cable technology will replace the current 10/100 networking cabling and could handle the bandwidth needed for "carrying phone, cable tv signal, and internet/lan". FWIW I'm thinking the Cat5e or even Cat 6 cables being discussed isn't it.

So after a mere 4 decades involved in IT, my advice for folks installing ANY underground communications cabling to their garage, is to pay more attention to the future usability of the CONDUIT than the wire(s). Unless, of course, you just like digging ditches

FWIW my views may be biased, since here in Central Texas laying underground cable usually involves honkin' big riding rocks saws, jack hammers and rock picks

Funf Dreisig

 

[Keep]

There should be no permit issues at all. I have never seen a permit required for running network cable. I am not saying use this to run anything other than networking and maybe your phone lines.

I would not recommend running electrical lines through irrigation plastic pipe but network cable is fine.

You could use the wireless bridges but its expensive, flaky in bad weather, and a lot slower than wire. 10 gig over wire is not far off for home use and wireless will not match that speed for years and years to come.

 

[Keep]

I think that was my point

FWIW my views may be biased, since here in Central Texas laying underground cable usually involves honkin' big riding rocks saws, jack hammers and rock picks

Funf Dreisig

True but its always easy to suggest burying cable when you are not doing the digging

 

[MustangRick]

You can also look at wireline networking adapters. They just plug into your 110 and transmit over the power lines. I haven't looked at them for years, but I am sure they are in the 2-12mb range. Check them out on Ebay, you can probably get a pair to test with for $20.

Watch out for grounding issues running cat5/6 cables between buildings, I have never experienced an issue personally, but I know of people that did with the old 10base-T coax stuff. Things just wouldn't work some times, some computers couldn't see other ones. If you do run cat5e, don't get the cheap stuff. The sheathing will snag when you pull it, and the gauge/sheathing is too thin to keep it from kinking on itself. I would think that this would add resistance to an already stressed length of run anyway.

You can find fiber cheap on ebay, and you can get used fiber to copper convertors fairly cheap. You can then run it any where you want in relation to the power, and you will not have any grounding issues. This is a pretty high end solution, but if you shop around you may be able to get it done for around $100, which is just over what 1000' of cat5e will run you. PM me if you have questions.

 

[MisterCMK]

*ahem* Fiber *ahem*

I suppose not everybody has the fiber termination kits available, testers or the know how on working with fiber.

 

[MustangRick]

I only mentioned that because I ran across a 350' spool of fiber already terminated for $20. If it wasn't already terminated, I wouldn't go near it.

 

[mrb]

I only mentioned that because I ran across a 350' spool of fiber already terminated for $20. If it wasn't already terminated, I wouldn't go near it.

regular indoor fiber isnt going to last long when in an underground conduit.

 

[hetkind]

I already have a trench going in for domestic water, and at $60/hr for backhoe work, it is pretty reasonable...

hung a 20" popular tree today, need to yank it out with the power wagon and all the chain I have up at the house. The milk crate full of logging chain is buried in the storage locker Two lenghts with the power wagon, a piece in the Town Wagon and another piece under the seat of the 68 utiline pickup.