Concrete and Insulation

[Crazy68Dart]

Getting estimates and not sure what I am going to do yet for heat. I think radiant floor heat is out of my league as far as cost.

If I just do a basic cement pad (post frame garage) is there an advantage to insulate under it even if there is no PEX/radiant heat?

How many of you have ran PEX and installed the boiler, etc. later? I have no idea what I am in for to just get the PEX down either. It seemed like a possibility to "stage" the install of a radiant system.

Located in NE Ohio so it definitely gets chilly here. My old garage (small 17x23) I insulated and heated with a 220v electric HeatStream heater. Loved it, clean and quiet. But with a larger space I don't think that will cut it.

I would like to partition the new space for heating purposes, but not sure how realistic that is either without wasting a lot of space in the process.

 

[rburke65]

I am also in NE Ohio, just put up a 32'x 56' shop and I am going to install the pex tubing even though I do not have NG. I don't know if I will heat it or how I will heat it, but if I don't put it in now I won't have the option down the road. Do I want to spend the extra $800 for the kit......no, but what are you going to do.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

So a kit for that size is 800... hmm. I am going to be around 28x36.

What is included in the kit? Do you have the wire mesh and insulation board or is that included?

Canton here...

 

[rburke65]

On this forum, the Blue Ridge Co. Is often refered to for info. and prices. Google it and they have pole barn packages that will suit your needs. Will it suit your wallet? No idea.
The package I looked at appears to be around $800. And no, that is not including wire mesh and insulation......I wish! That price is for pex, a manifold, tie wraps, pVc 90s, pressure gauge, ect. Check it out. Pretty complete kit to get you started. I could have given you a price but you never stated the size of your proposed build.

 

[Bennie]

I heat my attached garage with pex / boiler and love it. I just built a shed last fall and didn't install pex. I haven't insulated the shed yet but I do plan on it at some point. I also plan on heating it as needed. I don't do pex because I never plan on keeping it at a constaint temp out there and if I ever turn it in to my shop (not real likely anyways) it will be because I have a lift out there and therefore will not be rolling around on the cold floor anyways.

Depending on what and how you are going to use the building would definitely change wheather or not I'd install pex. I think I have both my buildings perfect for their intended uses.

As far as insulation under the concrete. That's a big part of the cost so I would recommend installing pex as well if you were doing that. I don't think it will make a big impact in heating cost if you are not doing pex.

Also, I have to say my garage does not stay cool in the summer like I would expect it to and I think that is because of the insulation under the concrete. I could be wrong on that but that's the only thing that makes sense to me. I have no windows, it's well insulated, attic is well vented, it's attached so less exterior walls and the floor is warm all summer long. My garage gets hot very early in the spring. Never happened before with worse conditions on previous garages.

 

[matouse3]

I did my 32x40 with pex and have no immediate plans to hook up a boiler. I just didn't want to look back and regret.
My 1/2" pex and manifold I bought from blueridge along with the pex staples and stapler rental. The 2" foam I got from HD after watching for sales. They will match competitors prices AND give you 10% extra off. I did the install myself, which I think saved substantial $$, and I was able to do it the way I wanted. Cost was approximately $750 for foam, $600 for pex/manifold kit, $150 for staples and rental, $300 for moisture barrier. Wire mesh was provided by the concrete guys.
Yeah, it adds up, but I don't regret doing it for a second.

My build: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152392

 

[Crazy68Dart]

It is really the regret part of it. With kids, etc. it is a challenge to spend as much time in the garage as I want, but (hopefully) as they get older (along with me... lol) that will change.

Like I said, I really liked the electric heat setup I had. Could keep the garage at 60 very easily in the dead of winter. It was a much smaller space, though.

All said and done looks to be approaching 2k to just the get the PEX in with the insulation board, etc. Hmm...

 

[oilslick]

I am in your boat too, really torn, but I have no nat gas and I heat my house with a wood boiler with propane backup, I plan to install 2" foam vertically down around perimeter to keep frost out but I really do not want to spend 2500 to ready it for floor heat. I do not want to heat it 24 7. I have a waste oil furnace in my dads shop but I cannot pull it out and leave him in the cold. I am even thinking about a homemade outdoor wood boiler but that is a pipe dreamt this point. I may cheap out and put the cheap white foam and some tube and call it good.I forgot mine is a 32x54 post shed.

 

[Cougar]

I have a 30 x 50 and didn't do the PEX.
And I regret it.
If you can swing it do it.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

So, is the consensus that without PEX insulation board is not worth the money? If I don't do PEX I will likely end up with some type of radiant tube heater and/or electric in some combination.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Insulation is all about heat loads. Heat loads are determined by outdoor design temperature (coldest week of the year published by ASHRAE) and indoor design temperture (the temperature you want the shop to be during the coldest week of the year).

We design for warm storage 40°F and physical working condition 50°F and higher for machining, drafting, tinkering. The greater the difference between outdoor and indoor the higher the heat load and the more insulation pays in return.

Since insulation, windows and doors effect heat loads, comparing specs. can help.

Keeping the frost out is number one of course and if you will only keep the shop at 50°F with a ground temperature already there, insulation in the middle of the slab would not do much. Depending on the climate and the size of the shop, we may even radiate it without the benefit of insulation, but this is not common.

Always insulate (1" XPS is good in many moderate climates) and install the PEX on the XPS if you can, as will increase the value of the shop and give you an option for perfect comfort later on. It is also possible to pull the main load with the radiant floor and supplement with alternative heat such as waste oil, wood burner when you are using it.

Even here in MN, once the perimeter has been adequately insulated, we have to look to the inside temperature as our deep ground temperature is 47°F.

It is hard to make accurate choices about insulation and heat sources unless you know how much heat you will need and the insulation that offers the best return on investment. If you imagine keeping the shop above 60°F you will be well served to plan for PEX and insulate under the whole slab.

Make sure the PEX vender does the heat load, better late than never.