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Concrete Cap

paleryder

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
6
Hey Gents,

I live in central Illinois. The builder building my garage screwed up the floor the first time. It's a floating slab w/thickened edge, 26x32. It as obviously so bad, they agreed to fix it. They opted to put a cap on it. While I'm not sure they put the right thickness on it, they purported to put a cap the length of the garage from 3" sloping down to 2"- 2 1/2". They used a binder but did not use a moisture barrier of any kind.

The cap was poured during the day and that night it cracked. It has continued to crack and is now 30+ days old. The floor looks like a jigsaw puzzle and a few of the cracks are out of alignment and there are quite a few pop outs. The owner of the company came out this time and looked at it. He agreed that it was unacceptable but blamed the concrete company. He did take some responsibility for the first screw up but blamed some of that on the concrete company as well.

The garage was put up already.

The builder wants to tear out the old cap and do it again. It won't cost him much because he plans on getting his concrete free. He will do the exact same thing as before. I'm supposed to trust him. I have another concrete guy who will tear out the hold floor and put a 4" cap with wire mesh and a moisture barrier and he will charge $4,400. The builder disputes that a moisture barrier is necessary and says that you can't glue it if you use the moisture barrier. He also believes the 4" is unnecessary. He thinks the contractor is just out to get a job. The builder is a well known company that builds garages in this area.

I'm at a loss. I know it won't cost me anything one way or another but I don't know the right approach. I don't have a lot of faith in the builder at this point but I also know nothing about the contractor. Can you help with any insights or recommendations? Thanks.

May it be blessed,
Todd
 
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green.bubbly

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
2,156
Location
Lafayette, LA
I am assuming the wire mesh and vapor barrier were not part of the original quote. Tell the builder you want the wire mesh and vapor barrier and you are willing to pay for it. Then let him rip out the old and put in the new. You will get a new floor and your only additional expense will e the mesh and the barrier.

Tell him that since the first floor failed (not sure why) that you are not comfortable with him simply redoing it the same way it was first done.

What did the original bid include?
 

z28dad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
172
Location
VA
Do you have any pics of your floor. Ive had the same trouble with my new slab. It has developed several hair line cracks , its about 50 days old. I'm thinking that eventually the finish is going to pop up on mine. To be honest I don't like the idea of a cap. Is there anyway they could just start over on the floor? I'm not sure what I will do to mine. How bad were the cracks?
 
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paleryder

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
6
I have pictures but I'll have to get them later. They got bigger than hairline cracks and they have carved up the entire floor. The edges are uneven. I originally photographed the cracks about a week after the cap was poured. It's amazing how much it changed after that.

As for the quote relating to the original floor, wire mesh was put in but that slab was probably 4" or so thick. Instead of tearing out the original messed up floor (which is probably what I should have required but I'm too nice of a guy) they opted to do a cap. I didn't know better. When they put the cap on it was their attempt to fix the problem. We didn't discuss moisture barriers, mesh, etc... as it relates to the cap because I wasn't paying for it. I just assumed (yeah, I know) that they would do it correctly. The builder still says he wouldn't use a moisture barrier. He noted that he couldn't put mesh in 2" and that's all he thinks is necessary.
 
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paleryder

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
6
Not really sure how to add links or photos. I read the faq but I'm internet challenged. Here are some links to my photobucket account I just set up. Hope this works. If not, please be patient :confused::

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170118.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170119.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170121.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170123.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170124.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170125.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170126.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a480/paleryder1/garage/PA170127.jpg

This cap was poured originally on 09/21/10. The photos above were taken 10/17/10. I can't stress enough that the cracks are worse now 10 days later. I'll have to get a couple of the worst shots for you tomorrow. The cracks are wider, more pop outs and shifting vertically.

Builder blames the concrete folks. Their ticket suggests they used the right amount of water (5 gal I think) but who knows if that's what actually happened. I'm not sure I can trust him. He's had two shots at this. He won't put mesh in because he thinks the two-three inch cap is sufficient. He says he'll put visqueen down if I want but he says he can't put a binder down and he doesn't think it is necessary. He says 4" is unnecessary. So, is 2" inches enough or do I need 4" with moisture barrier and mesh. I just don't know who to trust on this. Thanks.

Todd
 

larry4406

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
20,145
Location
Northern Virginia
I had a garage where the structural slab was poured too low - grade bust. They came in, scarified the slab, applied a bonding agent, and then poured a new 4" cap slab on top with 6x6 wwm. No issues.

I am no expert. I would not think you would want a plastic barrier between the cap and the base slab - I think you want them bonded. As the cap cracked, I am thinking it was too thin and probably cured too fast.

The capped slab repair I described was done after the roof was done, and the cap was kept damp while curing.
 
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Justanoldguy

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Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
3,673
Location
Atiamuri. Central North Island. New Zealand
Don't put a barrier between slabs.
You need the two to bond.
4" will solve the problem.
I also wouldn't put mesh in it.
Just get the original guy to pour 4"
over the 1st slab and be done with it.
Anything less than 4" will definitely break up.
Keep the slab wet for 3 or 4 days if possible.
 

Kevin54

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
You got screwed plain and simple, now everyone is wanting to blame the other guy and you are stuck. First off, does your sill plate set directly on the slab or do you have a raised curb, or do you have blocks on top of the slab?
If the original builder screwed it up the first time, capped it and screwed it up the second time, I'd be very hard pressed to believe the third time is a charm.
If you go 4" over top of the first floor, what does that do to your ceiling height, door openings, etc? 4" can really screw things up depending on how the structure is framed and the walls are on the floor. Thats on reason I never liked a slab foundation. You are tied in all together with the thickened edge.
If it were me and I had a slab foundation, I would see if they could come in a foot or two so you have wall support, cut the complete floor out, pin it to the outer foundation all around, and pour a new floor the correct way. Maybe in warmer climates they can cap concrete successfully, but I have yet to see one done in a climate with drastic temperature changes that last for any length of time. 4" over the top would fix it but like I stated before, how does it affect the structure as far as doors etc?
 
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paleryder

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
6
There is a curb. The original slab doesn't really float within the foundation walls it sits on it and the curb was poured on top of that. The cap was poured within the walls of the curb

The 4" will take a little height away and they will have to raise the side door. Not sure what will need to be done with the car entrance door.

Okay, I got a recommendation for mesh and moisture barrier and another recommendation for no mesh and no moisture barrier- this is why I didn't want to build a garage! :) At least 4" seems to be agreed upon. I'm assuming the wire mesh won't harm anything but perhaps my just be unnecessary, right?

Thanks alot, guys. I really appreciate it. I'll speak to the contractor about the moisture barrier and the binding issue. I think I'm going to with the 4" although I'll lose a little height. Any more comments are welcome.

Todd
 
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paleryder

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
6
Well, I had a new contractor remove the old cap and put a new 4" cap. He did not use a binder but put a moisture barrier between the new cap and the original floor. He used some wire mesh. It took quite a while to set up. Looks great.

The original contractor's people came by looked at it. They were impressed.

Thanks for your input.

Todd
 

FIRE UP

Active member
Joined
Oct 9, 2010
Messages
33
Location
Ramona. CA
Gents,
I'm no expert on concrete. I've poured some here and there but, never got the hang of perfecting the finish. That's an art, no doubt about it. Anyway, it's too bad you had the trouble you had. How do you know when you pick a contractor that you're going to get a bad concrete job or not?

What's amazing is, when you go into Home Depot, Costco, and many other store/warehouse establishments, you look at their concrete and for the most part, it's flawless. All they do is put some sort of sealer on it and, maybe some sort of epoxy clear coat and it's done! But, you never see any cracks in it, at least I don't. Them people must know what their doing.
Scott​
 
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