concrete contract wording

[Diesel Dan]

Hey all, tapping the vast knowledge resevoir for some assistance, kevin54 can chime in as well.

Going to be putting up a 40x72x17.5' building.
Will be on a traditional foundation, stem walls and 4" slab. Since I'm new to the area I don't know any of the contractors first hand and we know they are all good, just ask them.

Will be receiving a bid/contract shortly to review and I expect it to be written to favor the contractor. Footing portion should be straight forward, 8"x24", two row #4 rebar on chairs, 3500 psi mix at 4-6" slump, continuous pour.

Specs for the wall?
- plus/minus 1/4" on overall length/with and height? If block should I spec pre-wetting the block before setting?

The BIG question.
How to spec out the floor. Since I will use this as my main work shop it needs to be flat/smooth for rolling equipment. No, absolutely NOT going with any form of broomed finish.
I may even ask about a surface hardener for the shop area.

If I can seal off all the door openings I'd like to flood cool it for 3 days or so.

Post away, I will read but have limited access internet access where I'm at. In fact the new house/shop does not have cable or even DSL. Heck not even sure they'd extend a phone line but luckily we get cell reception on the hill but not on the road.

Location is Columbia, TN area.

 

[larry_g]

One thing that I did in both of my shops is use Zipstrips instead of cutting for crack control. After many years both shops still just have hairline cracks above the Zipstrips and no more.

http://www.superiorprofiles.com/zip-strip.html

Another thread on control joints; http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80533

lg
no neat sigline

 

[Diesel Dan]

I had zip strips in my Michigan shop and really liked them.
Asked about them in WI and OH and nobody knew what I was talking about. This was 10yrs later on one build. Planning on asking for zip strips here, we'll see how that goes. Definetely saves labor with no saw cutting and clean up after the cutting.

 

[Diesel Dan]

First bid, quote etc is worded as follows:

I propose to supply labor, equipment and materials to dig and pour footers with 2 runs of #4 rebar, lay 8" block, 6 courses on low side, 3 courses on top side, lower side will have core fills at 4' OC, install gravel (up to 3 loads) for back fill, pour 4" concrete slab with plastic moisture barrier, rebar 5'0" OC and install anchor bolts for $16K.

The estimate was for 725 block +/- depending on what it takes due to the slope. I'm pretty sure the low side will need more courses.

Elevation figures are:

SW...0
SE....-9"
NW...-32"
NE....-45"

The building is running east/west (72' side).
The south end of the building is dug into solid sub-base so it only needs the footer dug far enough to set grade where as the north side needs to go down another 12" for the footer.

The SW corner (zero point)will have the top of the slab 6" above grade and then two courses higher yet for the wall. So stack those dimensions on top of the low reading and I get 67" from ground level to top or 8+ courses of which 6 will be acting as a retaining wall.

Should 5-6 courses be 12" block for that application?

I told him rebar 2' OC and I already bought and delivered 170 pcs of 20' #4 to the site.

As you can tell this is a very generic "contract" that gives me very little room to argue if something turns out unsatisfactory.

 

[Cairo94507]

The 5'0 on center rebar caught my attention too.

 

[Chris705]

Diesel Dan - can you take the contractors proposal and expand it in greater detail....
1. What size footer?
2. What size vertical rebar do you want in the core filled block that the contractor intends to do at 4' intervals. Ideally these vertical bars would also be in the 3 course wall also. These bars should be doweled or lapped with pins coming out of the footing. Then the anchor bolts would want to align with the vertical bars (I'd call for #5 vert.)
3. Three loads = how many cu. yards of fill...spell that out or clarify it and understand what the material actually is called. (run of bank, crushed stone, stone dust etc)
4. 6mil vapor barrier or 10 mil?
5. 4" concrete slab (you calculate how many cu. yards that is and state it with a 10% overage) call out the mix design...PSI, Slump, Air, fiber mesh...if you don't know what works in your area call your local batch plant and speak to someone about what they recommend.

You can then speak to him to see if he needs to adjust his number to reflect what you have requested (you can then get other bids from your written description). I would have him sign before you pay any type of deposit down.


This is a very common problem in folks not getting exactly what they thought they were paying for and it is because it the finer points were never discussed or written down (when hiring any type of contractor). Discussing this with the contractor and seeing if you can expand on the proposal to define the project in greater detail is really what you (and others) should try to be doing. Communication is key! Good drawings and specs leave little to the imagination...another way as you are trying to get proposals given to you is for you to define what you expect the contractor to give/provide to you by letting them bid from your written spec.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Chris,
There is no way I'd sign that contract. We discussed more details than listed.
My next bid request will have a lot more details.

Was supposed to meet with a poured wall contractor tomorrow in the morning, text to confirm and he wasn't even planning on coming. Says we didn't set a time, BS because right after the call I sent him the address and canceled another appointment. So one of his guys is going to show.

Already had a few contractors cancel the day of via text message.

 

[Chris705]

If I were bringing contractors to my place for the purpose of trying to obtain prices from them....I'd be inclined to spell out to them what I expect. I think you'd have a better chance of getting exactly what you want by spelling it out, generally that is what plans and specs do. I get it that often plans and specs are not used, but there is no reason why you can't write out a list of what you expect...that list can be altered while you talk on site to the various contractors if they claim they'd do it this way or that way instead of how you wrote it down....as long as you agree to what they are proposing in lieu of how you envisioned it (and adjust the description)....if you don't agree tell them so and ask them if they can still bid as you outlined it. Contractors often lack the skill to write out good descriptive quotes. There is no reason why you cannot craft it yourself and have the contractor put his number to your description.

 

[Diesel Dan]

If I were bringing contractors to my place for the purpose of trying to obtain prices from them....I'd be inclined to spell out to them what I expect.

That's the purpose of this thread. To help draft a contract for the customer.

I'm going with a block construction since I've not had much luck with poured wall contractors. Will have a local guy do the footers, if he agrees to the mix. Find a block layer, do 3 lower course in 12" block and I'll do the core fill with sticks of #4 rebar myself and have them add a plastisizer (sp) so it fills the cores good since I don't have a vibration tool (there is no good way to make that statement here)

 

[lattimer17]

Do a google search for MasterFormat Division 03 and Division 04.

You will have thousands of examples of specs for concrete (03) and masonry (04) to use as a guide.

Some of the specs (like footing size, rebar size/spacing/quantity, control and expansion joints) are based upon ACI code and are the result of engineering calculations. Other specs (like slab finish) are more subjective in nature and are a result of owner need/preference.

 

[bczygan]

What kind of finish on the slab? Hand and power troweled?

Any additives in the slab?

Flat slab? How flat? What are the tolerances to be held?

What kind of steel in the block retaining wall to make it a real retaining wall?

What kind of compaction on the fill?

Exactly how much cut and fill and how much for additional taken out or brought in? Will the site balance? What kind of grading for drainage? Rough grading only?, or finish grading included? How precise is rough grading to be? Will there be a grading plan?

Earthwork can be a big unknown with lots of extras. Anything not in the contract becomes an extra.

Etc.

Bill

 

[DBendr]

Why don't you take your sketch and drive over to the concrete plant and ask to talk to engineering ?
They'll tell you exactly what you need and give you the number of someone with a brain(credit to buy from them) and the ability to do the job correctly.
What is your current GC's specialty ? Womens closet shelving or wallpaper installation ?
Perhaps windows and door replacement ?
Get to the source.

 

[MGmachine]

I live in NE Ohio as well and you are going to find that the construction field is not very professional around here, generally just a bunch of hillbillies that work concrete, and you are probably talking above their head.

Try to find a concrete company that has a civil engineer as the head of operations. Probably going to have to search for a company that mostly focuses in industrial building because I have my doubts you will find professionals on the residential sides of things in this area. Downside is expect this to cost a lot more. Only other way is to be on the site and micromanage the operation yourself.

Good luck.

 

[Diesel Dan]

lattimer17--Thanks, I'll have to check that out when I get a chance.

bczygan--- What is an exceptable tolerance for floor flatness/levelness? NASA required it to be within .001's/ft IIRC but that is not realistic for residential work. On the flip side +/- 0.250 is too much.

Dbender---taking a sketch is a good idea but in my experience doesn't go very far. I've been doing most of my drawings on 1/4" graph paper, to scale and been getting quite a few blank stares. Seems if not a CAD generated document people are lost nowadays.

As far a GC, I'm trying to fill that role.
Did have a GC out recently who has done many large scale commercial projects but is scaling back towards retirement and only picking smaller jobs now. He was versed in zip strips, drop end trusses etc where others aren't.

MGmachine---Since this build is in TN I doubt I will find any good Ohio contractors either. The guy who did my shop floor in Ohio did a good job for a decent price I must say.

Here is what I submitted to the latest GC:

- Footer 8" thick by 24" wide, 224 linear feet ( 12 cu. yds.)
- 3500 psi concrete, max 5" slump
- two runs of #4 rebar on baskets, rebar on site
- vertical rebar set 4' o/c, rebar cut to height of wall
- vapor barrier under footer
- 72' trenches dug level to required depth
- 40' trenches stair stepped as required for traditional 16" long blocks

-walls
-4 course on high side(72' wall) of 8" block
-7 course on low side(72' wall) with lower 4 course to be 12" block
-upper 3 to be 8" block
-#4 vertical rebar on corners and 4' o/c

- 4" slab, 38'8" x 70'8" +10% for 38 cu. yds.
- 3500 psi concrete with 5" slump
- final water and mix reports to be supplied
- #4 rebar 2' o/c set on chairs
- #57 stone fill compacted in 6" lifts with vibrating plate compactor
- vapor barrier ( how many mill?)
- zip strips on 10' grid patter for crack control
- power troweled smooth finish
- sealer applied
- finished floor to be flat, smooth and level
Contractor information
- License #, state/local
- Insurance information
- Bond information

There was more to the wall quote but this POS laptop ate it.
Bought a new Android tablet to work with and it can't print without "cloud" access which I lack. This POS windows8 is slower than a diesel chevette pulling a BBQ trailer up 7 mile hill to a heart health convention. Won't recognize my printer, even with updated drivers.

BTW, in case anyone is wondering...I'm sitting in the campground Laundromat just to get the little bit of crappy internet I can.

 

[Chris705]

Dan - I don't see mention of anchor bolts? Specify them to be in line with your vertical bars at 4'oc. I prefer to see a 10mil poly vb...6mil just gets torn up... the 10 mill will survive while all the bars are being put in place... tape joints or lap a foot or so. Also you be better off calling out for a cure-in-seal or... a sealer hardener depending on what you're after....search threads on sealers to get more info. If you can accept a .25" over 10' flatness....include that in your specs, I think that would be pretty level for a residential floor.

 

[Wardster]

Few thoughts:

1. For your 4" slab you might want to consider specifying a 2" chair so the reinforcing steel is near the center of the slab.

2. #4 rebar in 3500psi concrete should be lapped a couple of feet, so you are certain that you achieve the required development strength in the bar. This lap splice should be tied with wire so it's continuous.

3. Consider adding horizontal reinforcing to the deeper block walls

4. Rebar is cheap, so consider a third run in the footer and pick up 90 deg bends with legs long enough to develop the bar (same theory as above - it's not my shop, but I would cut some 5' - 6' long pieces and bend them 90 deg for the corners)

5. Any drainage on the outside of the footer? What about inside?

6. "final water and mix reports" = batch tickets, which should be given to you by the driver. He should be able to tell you how much water he can add to stay within the specified w:c ratio.

7. Does #57 stone need to be put in at 6" lifts since it's washed?

8. Agree with Chris705 regarding flatness and sealers. Best to decide what your final finish will be and cure it accordingly. If you intend to apply an epoxy, then you should consider water curing the slab - after its finished we lay wet burlap on the finished concrete, put some soaker hoses on it, then cover it with plastic.

 

[lattimer17]

- Footer 8" thick by 24" wide, 224 linear feet ( 12 cu. yds.)
- 3500 psi concrete, max 5" slump max 3" +/- 1.5" -make em work for their money
- two runs of #4 rebar on baskets, rebar on site Spec out location (via section drawing for all rebar). Spec out minimum cover
- vertical rebar set 4' o/c, rebar cut to height of wall 3" less than wall height
- vapor barrier under footer 10 mil
- 72' trenches dug level to required depth
- 40' trenches stair stepped as required for traditional 16" long blocks
Quote:
-walls
-4 course on high side(72' wall) of 8" block
-7 course on low side(72' wall) with lower 4 course to be 12" block
-upper 3 to be 8" block
-#4 vertical rebar on corners and 4' o/c cells grouted solid



- 4" slab, 38'8" x 70'8" +10% for 38 cu. yds.
- 3500 psi concrete with 5" slump 3" +/- 1.5"
- final water and mix reports to be supplied
- #4 rebar 2' o/c set on chairs I only checked for minimum reinforcement allowed by code (i.e. absolutely no loads inplied, the concrete itself weighs nothing, totally theoretical situation) and you're OK. Assuming this reinforcement was checked by someone with concrete design experience and found to be suitable for the loads, you could also use 4x4 - w4.0 x w4.0 or 6x6 w5.5 x w5.5 welded wire fabric to shave down on costs. WWF is perfectly good, assuming it is placed correctly.
- #57 stone fill compacted in 6" lifts with vibrating plate compactor how thick is the subbase (ie how many lifts)
- vapor barrier ( how many mill?) 10
- zip strips on 10' grid patter for crack control
- power troweled smooth finish
- sealer applied what kind?
- finished floor to be flat, smooth and level


Contractor information
- License #, state/local
- Insurance information
- Bond information
references


Where do you live? I'd spec out the air content of the concrete as well, especially if freeze/thaw is a concern.

see red above

 

[lattimer17]

lattimer17--Thanks, I'll have to check that out when I get a chance.

bczygan--- What is an exceptable tolerance for floor flatness/levelness? NASA required it to be within .001's/ft IIRC but that is not realistic for residential work. On the flip side +/- 0.250 is too much.

Dbender---taking a sketch is a good idea but in my experience doesn't go very far. I've been doing most of my drawings on 1/4" graph paper, to scale and been getting quite a few blank stares. Seems if not a CAD generated document people are lost nowadays.

As far a GC, I'm trying to fill that role.
Did have a GC out recently who has done many large scale commercial projects but is scaling back towards retirement and only picking smaller jobs now. He was versed in zip strips, drop end trusses etc where others aren't.

MGmachine---Since this build is in TN I doubt I will find any good Ohio contractors either. The guy who did my shop floor in Ohio did a good job for a decent price I must say.

Here is what I submitted to the latest GC:





There was more to the wall quote but this POS laptop ate it.
Bought a new Android tablet to work with and it can't print without "cloud" access which I lack. This POS windows8 is slower than a diesel chevette pulling a BBQ trailer up 7 mile hill to a heart health convention. Won't recognize my printer, even with updated drivers.

BTW, in case anyone is wondering...I'm sitting in the campground Laundromat just to get the little bit of crappy internet I can.

Few thoughts:

1. For your 4" slab you might want to consider specifying a 2" chair so the reinforcing steel is near the center of the slab.

2. #4 rebar in 3500psi concrete should be lapped a couple of feet, so you are certain that you achieve the required development strength in the bar. This lap splice should be tied with wire so it's continuous. yup. Depends on the grade of rebar, concrete compressive strength, and weight of concrete but you're looking at around 36"

3. Consider adding horizontal reinforcing to the deeper block walls

4. Rebar is cheap, so consider a third run in the footer and pick up 90 deg bends with legs long enough to develop the bar (same theory as above - it's not my shop, but I would cut some 5' - 6' long pieces and bend them 90 deg for the corners)

5. Any drainage on the outside of the footer? What about inside? And spec out backfill. If using #57 as subbase, it will allow water to pass through. Give it somewhere to go that isn't beneath your slab/foundation to lessen frost heave.

6. "final water and mix reports" = batch tickets, which should be given to you by the driver. He should be able to tell you how much water he can add to stay within the specified w:c ratio.

7. Does #57 stone need to be put in at 6" lifts since it's washed?

8. Agree with Chris705 regarding flatness and sealers. Best to decide what your final finish will be and cure it accordingly. If you intend to apply an epoxy, then you should consider water curing the slab - after its finished we lay wet burlap on the finished concrete, put some soaker hoses on it, then cover it with plastic.

Good points by Wardster

ETA: Everything I said is for purely academic purposes. Nothing should be construed as to being legal, engineering, medical, or even sound advice. All advice given is based solely off of what I learned on vacation while staying at a Holiday Inn in Newark.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Few thoughts:

1. For your 4" slab you might want to consider specifying a 2" chair so the reinforcing steel is near the center of the slab.I'll probably buy the chairs and baskets myself from menards, going to pick up 210 sheets of osb this weekend, not looking forward to unloading that by hand.

3. Consider adding horizontal reinforcing to the deeper block wallsThe GC did mention making a bond beam using #4 bar between the upper two courses

4. Rebar is cheap, so consider a third run in the footer and pick up 90 deg bends with legs long enough to develop the bar (same theory as above - it's not my shop, but I would cut some 5' - 6' long pieces and bend them 90 deg for the corners)Per stick it is but I'm sitting on over $1,000 worth of bar and need a few hundred more feet. One peice corners are code, last I knew but I was definetely going to keep an eye on it.

5. Any drainage on the outside of the footer? What about inside?None planned on the inside but I was planning on a interceptor drain around 3 sides.

6. "final water and mix reports" = batch tickets, which should be given to you by the driver. He should be able to tell you how much water he can add to stay within the specified w:c ratio.had a few pours done in the past and don't recall ever getting water/batch reports,, just the bill.

7. Does #57 stone need to be put in at 6" lifts since it's washed?not sure but can't hurt
8. Agree with Chris705 regarding flatness and sealers. Best to decide what your final finish will be and cure it accordingly. If you intend to apply an epoxy, then you should consider water curing the slab - after its finished we lay wet burlap on the finished concrete, put some soaker hoses on it, then cover it with plastic.Honestly not sure on the sealer, had solvent based applied in the last shop but gets gooey when cleaners hit it. Main thing is to keep concrete dust down and make cleaning easier, no epoxy, it's a work shop. If anything I'd like a surface hardener so it don't chip as easily when dropping stuff. I would like to pond cool the whole slab since I should have the time.

ETA: Everything I said is for purely academic purposes. Nothing should be construed as to being legal, engineering, medical, or even sound advice. All advice given is based solely off of what I learned on vacation while staying at a Holiday Inn in Newark.

Hey at least you have good internet in your room at the holiday inn!

10 mil v/b appears to be a special order so the footer may have to do with 6 mill but I plan on ordering 20'x100' rolls of 10mill for the slab.

Sub base, 1/2 of the slab area (20x72)is flat and will have 6" of compacted fill then drops down to about 18-20" of fill.

Cell grouting, plan is for me to pour all cells with either a plasticizer mix or use pea gravel for the aggregate and add a stick of rebar in each cell. That is why the j-bolts weren't spec'd out. Also thinking of slipping in some hurricane strapping when core filling.

Where do I live? Depends if you are bringing flowers or beer

Building is going up south of Columbia, TN.

As always, thanks for the advice.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Made the 3 hr trip back from Menards with 210 sheets of OSB in tow!

Picked up 3 row baskets for the rebar, bought all the 2" chairs they had, not many though.

Rechecked the grade on site and think the low side wall will only need to be 6 course high so with only 3 course or so holding back material of which 2 rows will get back filled do they really need to be 12' block? Figured I'd stake some 2x4s for wall bracing while filling the area anyway.

 

[CNGsaves]

Decide on what "finish edge" you want on concrete where garage doors come down. If windy location or worried about heat/cooling loss, the technique of the "notch" concrete where the garage door sits lower in pocket so you are sure to get good seal to keep out blowing dirt, leaves, cold/hot air, etc. Include your desired finish for each door opening in the contract.

Will you be using J bolts embedded in concrete for the sill plates, or drill and epoxy bolts later ??? Specify those plans in the contract.

 

[ford33]

Now's the time to specify if you plan to add locations for installation of in-ground floor chain pots, conduit, water pipe connections and the slope, if any, of the floor. Do you need a sidewalk to the garage or a pad for an air compressor?

Did you specify clean-up responsibilities and who will repair any lawn damage?

 

[Diesel Dan]

Decide on what "finish edge" you want on concrete where garage doors come down. If windy location or worried about heat/cooling loss, the technique of the "notch" concrete where the garage door sits lower in pocket so you are sure to get good seal to keep out blowing dirt, leaves, cold/hot air, etc. Include your desired finish for each door opening in the contract.Now that is something I forgot about. Never had a pocket seal type, always flush with the outter edge tapered away and once installed 1.5" steel pipe in the concrete as a door seal. However I've alway had water intrusion at some point from driving rains. I've never had a pocket edge before due to rolling the engine hoist in/out. Think I'll do it this time.

Will you be using J bolts embedded in concrete for the sill plates, or drill and epoxy bolts later ??? Specify those plans in the contract.Yes, that has been covered. When I'm core filling all the blocks I'll install at that point. That is the plan.

Now's the time to specify if you plan to add locations for installation of in-ground floor chain pots, conduit, water pipe connections and the slope, if any, of the floor. Do you need a sidewalk to the garage or a pad for an air compressor?
Before the floor is poured I'm doing the sewer drains, floor drains, conduit to the car lift, 2" PVC cross over etc.

Did you specify clean-up responsibilities and who will repair any lawn damage?
Yard damage, funny. Green feild construction in a pasture. However it is something for others to consider.

Might try to hit up some Amish around here, they do lots of block work on their builds.

 

[Chris705]

Vapor barrier required/suggested under slab only...not needed under footers.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Why no vapor barrier under the footer?
If it was a monolithic slab the plastic would extend under the rat wall. Being a shallow footer it's not much deeper than a monolithic slab.

 

[Chris705]

Did not think it was a mono slab. Read where OP talked about multiple block course and thought it was a foundation wall.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Did not think it was a mono slab. Read where OP talked about multiple block course and thought it was a foundation wall.

You mean this one.

Will be on a traditional foundation, stem walls and 4" slab. Since I'm new to the area I don't know any of the contractors first hand and we know they are all good, just ask them.

Not trying to start an argument, just wondering why a shallow footer about as deep as a mono slab wouldn't get vapor barrier.

 

[rburke65]

No expert here but I have never seen VB under a footer.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Well the contractor from post #4 must have heard I'm still shopping around. Just hours after talking with a guy who can do the footers and floor but must sub out the block I received a call wanting to know if I'm gonna be ready to schedule the work, has been almost a month since he sub'd a quote.

Here is what I've been handing out for details.

Footer:
-- Footer 8" thick by 24" wide, 224 linear feet ( 12 cu. yds.)
- 3500 psi concrete, max 5" slump
- three runs of #4 rebar on baskets, rebar on site
- vertical rebar set 4' o/c, rebar cut to height of wall
- 6 mill vapor barrier under footer
- footer trenches roughed in already

Walls:
- Walls to be 8" concrete block
- High side of 72' wall to be 4 course tall
- Low side of 72' wall to be 7 course tall
- 40' walls to be stair stepped accordingly
- manufactured corner blocks used on all corners and openings
- single run of #4 rebar ran horizontally between top and 2nd down course
- Final course to be +/- 1/8" of finished dimensions
- estimated 860 blocks
- blocks and mortar will be on site
- rebar on site
Contractor information
- License #, state/local
- Insurance information
- References

Floor:

- 4" slab, 38'8" x 70'8" +10% for 38 cu. yds.
- 3500 psi concrete with 5" slump
- final water and mix reports to be supplied
- #4 rebar 2' o/c set on chairs
- #57 stone fill compacted in 6" lifts with vibrating plate compactor
- vapor barrier, 10 mill
- zip strips on 12' grid patter for crack control
- power troweled smooth finish
- water based sealer applied on 24x40 living area
- solvent based sealer on 40x48 shop area
- finished floor to be flat, smooth and level, 12' trough drain to have slope extending 6' around
- 2-11' garage door openings to be pocketed 1/2-3/4"
- cost to add surface densifier to 40x48 shop area?
- 150 tons of 57 gravel to be on site
- floor drain and sewer stubs will be already installed
Contractor information
- License #, state/local
- Insurance information
- Bond information

I had to do a lot of the detail in writing since his original quote did not cover what we verbally discussed.

Here is his responding text message:

Lol count me out my quote didn't allow for all that.

I must be missing something here since I fail to see the humor. My updated bid request has me supplying all the fill, all the blocks, all the mortar and still all the rebar. My guess is he doesn't want to deal with a detail oriented person since he shows no interest in re-bidding the job or any part of it.

 

[4x4_G30_Sportvan]

^ Sure sounds like a contractor to drop from your list. He obviously just wants to do simple driveway slabs and not anything else.

 

[Chris705]

Dan - Just not aware of anyone ever putting a vapor barrier under the footings...would seem that if one did that then the VB would want to extend up the stem wall and under the slab also? A mono slab I can see putting the VB under the thickened slab because all that fine grade work goes on when forming up the outside. In a stem wall build typically there are months of work to be done before walls are up, roof is on and then finally floors get poured. I do hear on posts that some folks are pouring slabs immediately after foundation walls are complete, but that is not the norm for my area. I think the VB is primarily in place to prevent moisture from wicking up and evaporating on the inside of a structure.....with the stem wall I would doubt that much moisture would make its way inside your structure...Just my thoughts....

On your contractor issue, I am sure the contractor thought you were trying to pull one over on him by adding all that wording after he quoted you. Did he fully understand all that you intended to provide in the way of materials? Did you give him the opportunity to raise his price? Again not sure exactly what the contractors thoughts were but some of them do get scared away when highly detailed plans and specs are part of the job. They just aren't used to working that way. they feel they know what they are doing and only want to do as they deem correct. So lesson for everyone is to have the plans and details up front before soliciting bids. That way everyone knows what is required/expected.

Good Luck Dan!!

 

[Diesel Dan]

Dan - Just not aware of anyone ever putting a vapor barrier under the footings...would seem that if one did that then the VB would want to extend up the stem wall and under the slab also?

Good Luck Dan!!

Thanks!
I need some luck.

Yes the VP would extend up under the slab. TN has higher than average radon levels so venting is recommended. If I lap the footer and slab VP it will make a better seal for radon gas.

Not sure what that contractor was thinking but I tried over the phone and in person to get my points across but it's obvious he wasn't listening. Oh well, moving on.

 

[brownbagg]

you going pay out the azz for that, at least $10,000 more than a good slab without contract, and yes, no vapor barrier under footers

 

[Diesel Dan]

you going pay out the azz for that, at least $10,000 more than a good slab without contract, and yes, no vapor barrier under footers

Why?
What part of my requests are unreasonable?
It's not like I'm asking for extremely high ff/fl numbers or even any ff/fl standards. There are no financial penalties for time delay either.

 

[BlackTalon]

Good list you have developed. It's always better to work up the requirements yourself so everyone bids what you want. Looks like you kept the 5 inch slump, which is a pretty loose mix. A couple things:

1. you ask for "final water and mix reports", but what will you do with them? you do not spec a maximum w/c ratio, so what good is it to get a report later when there is no basis using that report to ensure the mix was within spec? I think you should refine your slump #, set a maximum w/c ratio, and require a mix design report from the concrete supplier prior to giving the okay to the contractor to order the concrete.

2. "Finished floor to be flat, smooth and level" is essentially meaningless as no standards are referenced and no tolerances given. This will leave you with no real teeth if finished product is not to your liking. There are flatness #s that can be spec'd that were developed for the industrial flooring world.

 

[Diesel Dan]

David,
Thanks for the feedback.
The 5 inch slump is what I thought would be a middle ground for very tight and too watery. I could be wrong and honestly don't know what the w/c ratio converts too.

1- I was planning on ordering the concrete myself and water reports shows if they watered it down.

2- I do realize there are no ff/fl #s. IF I get any responses that can be ironed out before the final contract is signed. What kind of #s would you like to see?

 

[BlackTalon]

Without having membership access to Astm or ACi it's tough to get great info. but here is a brief overall description:

http://www.forconstructionpros.com/article/12099992/what-are-ff-and-fl-numbers

Note that getting beyond "Flat" means hiring a concrete contractor with proven results in industrial/ warehouse floor installations. Also as you get flatter the cost climbs.

As far as slump and w/c go, you are probably best served by contacting the concrete plant and talking to their engineer about the best mix spec. Often it will be one of the state DOT mixes unless you will have steel-wheeled vehicles traveling on the slab.

 

[swharris]

Good list you have developed. It's always better to work up the requirements yourself so everyone bids what you want. Looks like you kept the 5 inch slump, which is a pretty loose mix. A couple things:

1. you ask for "final water and mix reports", but what will you do with them? you do not spec a maximum w/c ratio, so what good is it to get a report later when there is no basis using that report to ensure the mix was within spec? I think you should refine your slump #, set a maximum w/c ratio, and require a mix design report from the concrete supplier prior to giving the okay to the contractor to order the concrete.

2. "Finished floor to be flat, smooth and level" is essentially meaningless as no standards are referenced and no tolerances given. This will leave you with no real teeth if finished product is not to your liking. There are flatness #s that can be spec'd that were developed for the industrial flooring world.

I'm watching this with much interest as I need to get my home shop/garage floor requirements to my GC. You have some good points that I would like to articulate to my GC. I know this is asking a lot of you, but would you mind listing what you would spec out (using DieselDan's contract as a template with your adjustments) for a monolithic footer/slab for a 36x50 footprint garage?

My build is in dry Southern CA, so maybe some of the requirements will not be necessary. Thanks for any input you can give!

Here is a sketch of what I'm doing.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Swharris,
Looks like a nice shop. Hope this thread helps.

Black talon,
My research has found that ACI commitee 332 settled on a recommendation for residential slump in the 4-6" range. I do plan on stopping by a local ready mix plant and talk to them.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but all these specs can be a moot point without a way to enforce them. With all the discussion on the GJ about contractors declaring BK and courts not being able to enforce judgment your best course of action would be to have the project bonded at a high enough amount to cover tear out and redo, correct?

In Ohio for me to install my own septic system the county required me to get a 20k bond.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Stopped by a local redimix plant the other day.
Getting prices on block and concrete and was discussing my job. Said standard psi for footers is usually 3000 but 3500 isn't too big a deal BUT when I mentioned 5" slump he laughed and said you won't find anyone who will do that. He totally understood why I wanted a low slump/W.C. ratio but he said footer guys only want to pour it watered down. Was telling just this past holiday season during a party this exact topic was discussed.

What I'm gathering is traditional footer/concrete people are basically lying to their customers when they state they are getting a 3,000 psi footer mix when they knowingly over water the mix. Was talking with a cousin of ours that while he was in S.C. he watched driveways get poured right over the grass, no prep work at all other than a few 2x4 staked to the ground.

Never know, at this rate I might be pouring the footer by myself, don't want too but might have too.