Concrete Contractor - Unrealistic Expectations?

[meissen]

We called a contractor out to our house to see about putting a back patio and front porch on our house. The contractor came out, surveyed the job we wanted done, and then said he would mail us a quote and we'd have it within a week. We told him we wanted it done by August 20th and he said it'd be no problem because he juggles 3 crews.

We waited 9 days and then called, he was apologetic and said his computer crashed and that our quote would be in the mail the next day. If his computer crashed, how is he able to mail the quote the next day now that we called him.

He mails us the quote, we accept and call him to give him the go ahead to come out and do the job. He said he would call us and let us know when he would be available to do the job.

It's now been 2 weeks and we haven't heard back from him. My father-in-law owns a tile company and being a jobber he says that the guy will probably call the day before he's ready to come out. Him and my wife keep saying "don't worry about it." But I'm sitting here thinking it's highly unprofessional that he can't just call us, even after 2 weeks, and say "I will be out in X days/weeks/months to do the job." I just don't like that we're sitting here waiting to hear back on when he'll come out. I don't care if he calls and says it's going to take a month, I just want to know. We have to dig up concrete tiles before he comes, so having the heads up would be nice.


Am I being unrealistic or does this contractor seem like a loser?

 

[green.bubbly]

This is a classic case of a contractor that is too busy to take on another job but too greedy to turn it down. He is not calling you because he does not know how long it would be before he can do your job.

Bottom line is that he belly is full. Yoy need a hungry contractor that needs some work.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd find somebody else to do it.


PM sent.

 

[Rittles]

Sounds kind of like what happened to me. I hired them and waited a little more than a month for them to come out. They kept telling me "We are finishing a job now and will be there right after" or "We will be there the end of the week", etc.

Then one week they stopped answering their phone and didn't return calls or emails. So on a Friday morning, I started calling around to get new quotes. That Friday afternoon, they called and said they were on their way. They actually showed up and got the job started. They finished the following Monday.

I never heard back from any of the companies I called about getting a quote.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

I'd never sign a contract that lacks a start and completion date. If he is unable to supply that basic information, most likely he is to inept to complete the work.

 

[holdover]

cement contractors need a bit of room because of weather getting in the way of their scheduling, but they should be able to give you a date in a window of a week or so. My guy will sometimes go to a small job I have if rains etc making it so the trucks can't get in to do a big pour. When he comes and looks at one of my jobs he always says have it ready from this date on and I'll be there within this period.

 

[Big Top GT]

I'd never sign a contract that lacks a start and completion date. If he is unable to supply that basic information, most likely he is to inept to complete the work.

And a cost per day back to me if the work isn't completed by a certain date.

If he's this unreliable BEFORE he starts working, this makes me question the quality of his work once he does.

I'd start asking people I know locally for referrals to someone they've personally used.

 

[tdkkart]

I'd never sign a contract that lacks a start and completion date. If he is unable to supply that basic information, most likely he is to inept to complete the work.

And a cost per day back to me if the work isn't completed by a certain date.

If he's this unreliable BEFORE he starts working, this makes me question the quality of his work once he does.

I'd start asking people I know locally for referrals to someone they've personally used.

If any of you have ever worked in the construction business, you'd know that there's delays in EVERYTHING, not the least of which is weather. Every day it rains is another day that not only you, but everyone you deal with is behind. When it rains on one side of the county and not the other it puts everyone out of sync with each other, which means any or all of your subs may now be even further behind than you.

No, I don't like it when contractors are late or don't call me back, but when you look at it from there side of the fence it's a bit more understandable.

 

[SuperSocket]

I have this same problem with commercial work. You would think that contractors would be eager for business but the reality of it they are not... they don't care about some patio or small chump work... they want big jobs like stadiums, sky scrapers, etc....

I feel like some sit and hold out until these big project paydays come, for a lot of them they never come..

 

[Zeke]

Tough crowd.

I wouldn't pay Big Top a 2nd visit. Sorry.

Holdover has it right and has the right contractor.

Wasted is correct that all contracts should have a completion date and it's mandatory in many states. But to insinuate that the work will be poor because the contract is weak is wrong.

The others just got the run around. I have to wonder, where are you finding the names of these guys? A good start would be an older phone book. If they are in the 5 YO book and the current one, they probably are viable. If they charge more, well that's why they are still there.

 

[scott37300]

Concrete is a difficult business to schedual. Usually crews go from job to job doing multiple jobs each day. They will do site prep and form in a couple hours and leave for another job and set up concrete to be delivered the next day. Come pour and leave one guy to finish and then go set forms at a different job the rest of the day. They try to get the most done each day and juggle jobs in order to do so. You also have to consider weather into the schedual, if it rains one day they are behind a day, so if you had a set date you would be pushed back a day or more if it rains a few days in a week.

I wouldn't worry about it. Maybe call and verify that it will be done by the 20th but other then that I wouldn't worry about it. Concrete guys work long and hard and they often can only plan a day or two ahead since concrete has to be ordered by the hour, not weeks in advance and they ahve to work around weather delays.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Find someone else that wants to work.
That guy sounds like shady; probably a conartist.

 

[ConCretin]

I agree with a lot of what's been said. A lot of small contractors aren't as responsive as they should be and tend to over promise. It's not right but that's the reality.

Whether his actions -or inactions- rise to the level where you start over with someone else is always a tough call. How long has he been around? Does he have a reputation for quality work? Presumably you picked him for a reason, right?

I'd be more wary going forward but if you think this guy will give you a good job, I wouldn't necessarilly ditch him based solely on what you've said so far.

 

[MadMechMaster]

milt, Thanks for that phone book idea. I've been looking for a reason to keep them around, and using an older one as a check is a good idea. Too much can be changed on the internet.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

forgot to quote,

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

If any of you have ever worked in the construction business, you'd know that there's delays in EVERYTHING, not the least of which is weather. Every day it rains is another day that not only you, but everyone you deal with is behind. When it rains on one side of the county and not the other it puts everyone out of sync with each other, which means any or all of your subs may now be even further behind than you.

No, I don't like it when contractors are late or don't call me back, but when you look at it from there side of the fence it's a bit more understandable.

No I fully understand it. I also understand amending contracts. If he is under contract he is obligated. That might be coming back saying it rained for three weeks can we adjust dates? Might just be why I never get screwed over.

 

[ConCretin]

milt, Thanks for that phone book idea. I've been looking for a reason to keep them around, and using an older one as a check is a good idea. Too much can be changed on the internet.

I like that idea too.

 

[brownbagg]

where I am, it rains every day, everyday at 2pm you going get wet. we still place concrete daily. you learn to work around it.unless you get a two inch rain, wet weather is nothing. keep plenty of plastic around, keep your eye on the radar and pour concrete at 4am

 

[pj_rage]

I know it's probably unreasonable, but I personally like to have good communication with contractors who are working on my home. When you are paying thousands of dollars, in my non-contractor background opinion, the least they can do is take a minute to keep you in the loop, like you said, one way or the other.

I guess that's just not how it works, a lot of them are too busy or whatever, but I do wish it was the way it worked.

We had a bit of work done by a general contractor who brought in subs for each trade. He was recommended by a friend and did great work in the end. He was a heck of a nice guy when doing the quote, had no problem going over the project, talking through it, etc. But almost every time I phoned to clarify something or add work (and I didn't do this alot), he was obviously in the middle of a job and couldn't wait to get me off the phone. For the amount of work and money we gave him, I personally did not care for this. Maybe I shouldn't be bothering him, but I felt more like he should hire someone else (and charge more if necessary), so he has the time to take these kinds of calls and build a better reputation for customer service. Like I said, he did great work in the end, timely, etc, I would love to have him do work for us again, but only really simple stuff where we would not need to interact with him beyond an initial meeting.

For anything where I could see myself having questions, wanting it done a certain way, picking out certain materials/designs/etc, I would not want to work with him. Hell, again, it's probably unreasonable, but I'd love a 2 minute daily phone call for days where the contractor performed work (or was supposed to and didn't). What problems they ran into, what they accomplished, when they will be back, etc -- a simple status update. I know a lot of contractors probably laugh at that and would say it's a joke to even ask, so I guess I'm unreasonable, but when I'm paying that kind of money, I just want to be kept in the loop and reassured that the work is going according to plan, or if not, why and how will the problem(s) be mitigated.

This is a long story to say that I personally agree with you and your feelings, but don't have the background or experience to say if his actions are "right" or "wrong." I also wanted to confirm that, like in my case, poor communication does not mean that his work will be poor. It probably does mean, though, that even when he starts the job, the poor communication will continue.

I think the description that green.bubbly gave describes the contractor I'm talking about very well. I'm not so sure about finding a "hungry" contractor, though, because that begs the question -- why are they so hungry if they are so good?

 

[KMR Construction]

As a contractor look at the other side of the fence. If the guy does high quality work he will be buisy. Buisy means customers must wait for it to be done right. I run into this all the time and have to turn down jobs. My advice is call the guy and tell him that your wife is breathing down your neck and he will give a better timeline.

If he doesn't awnser return calls then yell louder, I will say when I am buisy whoever is yelling the loudest gets there job done. Wish it were different but I prefer to keep my crew fairly small so the quality is top notch and can be monitered

 

[red]

Use to hear these complaints all the time when I recommended someone. Stopped recommending people. Pointed out to that if these contractors were so organized or had great communications skills they would be working in an air conditioned office with employer supplied medical plan. Their backs and knees would be in better shape when they retired on their pension plan as well.

 

[5lima30]

Sounds like you are setting yourself up for disappointment and lots of aggravation IMHO.

 

[KenC]

re bigtop's idea
I've seen contracts like that, but they also include a bonus to the contractor for an early finish. Don't ask for one without giving other or anyone in their right mind won't sign.

 

[slip knot]

Big tops deal is called a liquidated damages contract. These work out well for leverage on a general contractor who uses a lot of subs and you want to make sure your contract is completed out on time and budget. I don't know how applicable it would be in this situation. Maybe with the bonus for earlier completion but why go to that kinda trouble. Just find you a good competent contractor and stick with him.

I've used the same plumber, electrician and concrete crew for years. I always pay them well and don't haggle the price and they always show up to take care of me. A good working relationship with your contractors is priceless. Now if I just find a paintcrew that wasn't in jail everytime i need something painted!!

 

[Big Top GT]

Tough crowd.

I wouldn't pay Big Top a 2nd visit. Sorry.

If a contractor is afraid of attaching a financial incentive to complete the job on time, they wouldn't be invited out for a first visit.

Last time I checked, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, me wanting to spend money to have the work done is more important than someone wanting to take money to do it.

True story, last time I didn't set a date of completion without a compensation rider:

I called three companies to get estimates for sandblasting and resealing my 1500 +/- sqft driveway. All three were within a stone's throw in price and the company that was the eventual winner had the better references, which put them over the top.

I contracted the job at XXXX dollars, gave them a 50% deposit, and they said they'd be able to start the following Monday (it was Thursday/Friday). They said they'd be able to knock out the sandblasting in a day, then come back on Wednesday to paint and seal the driveway.

Total time commitment: 3 days from when they started Monday.

Monday comes and Monday goes... I call, no answer.

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday... finally I get a call. "Oh, we're sorry, but we had equipment trouble. We'll be out tomorrow and we can wrap up Saturday." (two days now?)

OK great. I need this done and we have a contract, so let's get this wrapped up... I'm getting letters from my Home Owner's Association because the driveway is peeling.

Friday they get to the house at around 8:30-9:00 with a rental truck and rented sand blasting equipment. My "oh ****" alarm goes off immediately. They set up boards, I **** you not; pieces of plywood in front of my garage door, to keep the sand out.

I went to work and returned home at around 5-5:30 expecting to see a bare driveway.

This is what I came home to.

Then I opened the garage and just about lost my mind.

Mind you, this is a full 7 hours after I left that morning (giving them the benefit of the doubt here) and this is all they have done. On top of that, the guy tells me the sandblasting is way more difficult than he originally thought because he didn't realize how thick the coating was.

Yes, he's the expert and should have known what he was looking at, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, now they're out of sand (a 5'X5'X5' did only what you see above), so they have to leave and commit to coming back the following morning to finish the sandblasting.

Tuesday comes and goes. I call, no answer.

Wednesday, Thursday, Friday... finally I get a call. (I'm now I get a call from the contractor saying they have a problem. Because of how difficult the job is, they feel they've underbid the job and need more money to complete it.

I kindly and calmly explain that we have a contract and it's not my fault that he under bid the job. He then tries to convince me that he needs an additional $2000 to complete the job or he can't work any more.

I tell him I need to speak to his manager and he gives me the office number. I call and leave a message for the boss.

No call back Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.

Finally I get a call back on Tuesday, again asking for more money. Since I refuse, they tell me they're walking off the job. I demand my deposit back, report them to the BBB, and now need another contractor...

This all went on for nearly a month before I was able to find a company to clean up the mess.

So, the Cliff's Notes are: if you can't put in writing that you are so confident you'll finish on time and properly you're willing to put a dollar amount on it, I'm probably not the right customer for you.

It's a shame, too, because I pay good money, buy the people working on my property lunch every day they're there, keep a garage fridge' full of ice cold Gatorade, and tip for a job well done.

[/rant]

 

[Big Top GT]

re bigtop's idea
I've seen contracts like that, but they also include a bonus to the contractor for an early finish. Don't ask for one without giving other or anyone in their right mind won't sign.

I'm totally on board with that.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

If a contractor is afraid of attaching a financial incentive to complete the job on time, they wouldn't be invited out for a first visit.

Last time I checked, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, me wanting to spend money to have the work done is more important than someone wanting to take money to do it.

True story, last time I didn't set a date of completion without a compensation rider:

I called three companies to get estimates for sandblasting and resealing my 1500 +/- sqft driveway. All three were within a stone's throw in price and the company that was the eventual winner had the better references, which put them over the top.

I contracted the job at XXXX dollars, gave them a 50% deposit, and they said they'd be able to start the following Monday (it was Thursday/Friday). They said they'd be able to knock out the sandblasting in a day, then come back on Wednesday to paint and seal the driveway.

Total time commitment: 3 days from when they started Monday.

Monday comes and Monday goes... I call, no answer.

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday... finally I get a call. "Oh, we're sorry, but we had equipment trouble. We'll be out tomorrow and we can wrap up Saturday." (two days now?)

OK great. I need this done and we have a contract, so let's get this wrapped up... I'm getting letters from my Home Owner's Association because the driveway is peeling.

Friday they get to the house at around 8:30-9:00 with a rental truck and rented sand blasting equipment. My "oh ****" alarm goes off immediately. They set up boards, I **** you not; pieces of plywood in front of my garage door, to keep the sand out.

I went to work and returned home at around 5-5:30 expecting to see a bare driveway.

This is what I came home to.

Then I opened the garage and just about lost my mind.

Mind you, this is a full 7 hours after I left that morning (giving them the benefit of the doubt here) and this is all they have done. On top of that, the guy tells me the sandblasting is way more difficult than he originally thought because he didn't realize how thick the coating was.

Yes, he's the expert and should have known what he was looking at, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, now they're out of sand (a 5'X5'X5' did only what you see above), so they have to leave and commit to coming back the following morning to finish the sandblasting.

Tuesday comes and goes. I call, no answer.

Wednesday, Thursday, Friday... finally I get a call. (I'm now I get a call from the contractor saying they have a problem. Because of how difficult the job is, they feel they've underbid the job and need more money to complete it.

I kindly and calmly explain that we have a contract and it's not my fault that he under bid the job. He then tries to convince me that he needs an additional $2000 to complete the job or he can't work any more.

I tell him I need to speak to his manager and he gives me the office number. I call and leave a message for the boss.

No call back Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.

Finally I get a call back on Tuesday, again asking for more money. Since I refuse, they tell me they're walking off the job. I demand my deposit back, report them to the BBB, and now need another contractor...

This all went on for nearly a month before I was able to find a company to clean up the mess.

So, the Cliff's Notes are: if you can't put in writing that you are so confident you'll finish on time and properly you're willing to put a dollar amount on it, I'm probably not the right customer for you.

It's a shame, too, because I pay good money, buy the people working on my property lunch every day they're there, keep a garage fridge' full of ice cold Gatorade, and tip for a job well done.

[/rant]

I would have asked them to come on over and lets discuss this. Then I would have been looking for a contractor to remove a large blood stain from my driveway.

 

[green.bubbly]

How do you get your toes in those cute little slip on shoes?

 

[tdkkart]

How do you get your toes in those cute little slip on shoes?

Yep, I got questions on those......:supergay:

 

[wssix99]

Concrete is a difficult business to schedual. Usually crews go from job to job doing multiple jobs each day. They will do site prep and form in a couple hours and leave for another job and set up concrete to be delivered the next day. Come pour and leave one guy to finish and then go set forms at a different job the rest of the day. They try to get the most done each day and juggle jobs in order to do so. You also have to consider weather into the schedual, if it rains one day they are behind a day, so if you had a set date you would be pushed back a day or more if it rains a few days in a week.

I wouldn't worry about it. Maybe call and verify that it will be done by the 20th but other then that I wouldn't worry about it. Concrete guys work long and hard and they often can only plan a day or two ahead since concrete has to be ordered by the hour, not weeks in advance and they ahve to work around weather delays.

This is really it. The comments about "small contractors" don't really apply to your situation. Concrete (and any other outside work) is a ***** to plan out. Its not like putting up a new wall inside a house. There's lots of variables outside and one spell of rain can ruin work that's already been done and delay other stuff on the schedule.

Can the contractor be more responsive and provide you better customer service by communicating changes with you regularly? Yes - but if they were better at customer service, they would be in another industry.

I'm running in to this issue with all trades for a new house I'm trying to build. With all of the more vulnerable companies out of the picture, the guys who have held on are getting slammed with work.

What's your priority? Time, Cost, Quality? (You can't have all of them!) If time and cost are your key drivers, you might consider another company. If quality is your key and you are sure the company you have hired will deliver that - just stick with them and instead of hounding them on "when will you be out," change the conversation to be about his business and how his progress is on other jobs. That may give you more insight in to where you stand vs. having him give you run-around answers if he's worried you may drop him.

Another approach is to get your self further up in the priority line of his projects! This is easily done by offering to pay cash (or certified check) on site the day the job is done. Cash flow is everything to a contractor and having the money in hand vs. having to wait 30 days for payment will make you instantly more "special." (You may even be able to negotiate a further discount if you do this.) If the work spans multiple days, bring a cold case of beer to the site at the end of each day. You'll be amazed at how prompt and motivated the guys will be the following day. (There is a law of diminishing returns here... Too much beer and you'll loose the motivation that you would otherwise gain.)

 

[wssix99]

This is what I came home to.

This is why you should only hire licensed and insured contractors. (Even the best contractor in the world can have a single dufus working for them who can screw everything up.)

Shoddy work is not so much the function of a company but the workers. Society puts construction laborers at the bottom of the barrel with regard to pay and we get what we pay for.

 

[Keep]

How do you get your toes in those cute little slip on shoes?

I was going to ask how he liked them, they are supposed to be outstanding for folks with back problems....

As for the garage, I would have been livid, then the contracting company would have received a very large bill for the clean up and inspection of the vehicles in the garage. Nothing like sucking a bunch of sand into your intake and hosing up your engine.

 

[porphyre]

This is why you should only hire licensed and insured contractors. (Even the best contractor in the world can have a single dufus working for them who can screw everything up.)

Shoddy work is not so much the function of a company but the workers. Society puts construction laborers at the bottom of the barrel with regard to pay and we get what we pay for.

1) We don't all live in Illinazi. Some places don't require licensing. If licensing is available but not required, you will not find licensed contractors. You are spot on about bonded/insured, though.

2) Regarding pay, you must've not worked in the fast food service industry.

 

[Mr. D]

This is why you should only hire licensed and insured contractors. (Even the best contractor in the world can have a single dufus working for them who can screw everything up.)

Shoddy work is not so much the function of a company but the workers. Society puts construction laborers at the bottom of the barrel with regard to pay and we get what we pay for.

Let me guess, what your really saying is that if this has been a union crew it would have never happened?

 

[wssix99]

Let me guess, what your really saying is that if this has been a union crew it would have never happened?

No - I hadn't even considered that. I'm not talking about skilled trades - more pick-em-up-in-the-WalMart-parking-lot laborers. (My expectation is that one would not need a skilled laborer to scrape or blast a slab. My wife did a similar job on her office, having never touched the equipment before, and she did a much better job. And she cleaned up afterwards!)

BTW - In the city where I live, folks in the fast food industry make can make double what a construction laborer does. Outside of an urban area, that dynamic may change a bit.

 

[Big Top GT]

How do you get your toes in those cute little slip on shoes?

Dude, EVERYONE says that.

You'd be surprised by how awesome and comfortable they are. (They stink to high hell if you don't wash them regularly, though.) The ones you see in the above pictures are Vibram 5 Finger "Classics." They're okay for regular wear, but they come off pretty easily if you're not paying attention.

I actually wore them on a Warrior Dash event and had to go digging in foot deep mud so I wasn't running barefoot.

Get the ones with the strap across the top.

Also, these guys are licensed and insured. They were also recommended by a friend for whom they did a GREAT job. I think they were trying to take a shot at getting more money out of me, gambled, and lost.

 

[wssix99]

Also, these guys are licensed and insured. They were also recommended by a friend for whom they did a GREAT job. I think they were trying to take a shot at getting more money out of me, gambled, and lost.

Did they fix it or did you have to go to their insurance company? (BTW - That's probably another good point. Always get the proof of insurance before they start. That way you can call their insurance company directly.) I'd be less worried about the mess and more worried about where that corrosive dust got went in the car intakes, etc.

BTW - I've been thinking about the Vibrams for water sports, etc. but they remind me too much of muppet feet.

I may need to see a psychologist to get over that little hang up.

 

[Grumpy365]

No, I don't like it when contractors are late or don't call me back, but when you look at it from there side of the fence it's a bit more understandable.

It is NEVER acceptable to not call. It's acceptable to have delays beyond your control, but it's NOT acceptable not to call.

And the fact that anyone thinks it's "understandable" is mind boggling.

When I have a job going and my crew isn't going to make it, I call.