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Concrete discounts

johnnyradiant

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Mar 27, 2017
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Vancouver, BC
If there are codes and calculations for everything, and there always seems to be a margin in an engineer's spec's why would you need to over engineer a building to be sure it stands? Shouldn't an engineer be able to take the data and engineer it to stand without over engineering it so they knew it would stand?
 
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mcbane

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Jul 23, 2017
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Exactly!!! And now why do we need 200 yards of concrete on 3500 square foot because of snow load?

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Snow load is one of many load conditions. It governs the tensile capacity of the transverse tension ties and associated concrete and steel. If that were the only issue it might be cost effective to pay for a soil report that legitimized 3500 psf bearing pressure. But unfortunately, 130 mph wind design requires considerable footing weight to keep the entire structure from rolling away like a tumble weed. There is no free lunch, and as an engineer, if you structure fails under code-specified loads, you cant get off with a stupid look and a statement of "who would a thunk?"
 
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mcbane

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If there are codes and calculations for everything, and there always seems to be a margin in an engineer's spec's why would you need to over engineer a building to be sure it stands? Shouldn't an engineer be able to take the data and engineer it to stand without over engineering it so they knew it would stand?

Back to my original question. What is over engineered if you have followed applicable codes for the structure and design guidelines for the slab design? People do less than prudent all the time and get away with it, just like lots of people drive DUI without accident. Doesnt mean it is a good idea, especially if max savings is 1% of project cost.
 

spudley

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Northeast Wisconsin
So I was wondering why the concern for both big winds and big snow but when I saw where Truckee, CA is, it makes sense. Looks like a beautiful spot to build...anything.

Good luck.
 

nes999

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Aug 1, 2014
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Location
IL
For the 1% cost increase I dont see why you would skimp. You'll never wish you had less. But if by chance something happened you'd forever kick yourself.

My advice is to call a few concrete companies and talk to their salesmen. Plenty of times the closest isnt the cheapest.

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GMCGarage

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Jan 31, 2017
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Over engineered......

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Yea, most structures are cheapest when under-engineered or not engineered at all. :lol_hitti

Look what state he is in. just rough calcs for what he described I come up with 140 cy and dont have any footing sizes in there for uplift.

Rework your garage design with 50' clearspan, heavy snow load, wind load and seismic and give us a sf comparison to the amount of concrete you used.

about 90yds is his slab. 110 yds left for the structure foundations in those conditions is not out of line based on what he is telling us.

Dont jump to conclusions, makes you look foolish.
 

GMCGarage

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Jan 31, 2017
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If there are codes and calculations for everything, and there always seems to be a margin in an engineer's spec's why would you need to over engineer a building to be sure it stands? Shouldn't an engineer be able to take the data and engineer it to stand without over engineering it so they knew it would stand?

Most codes take into account the building process - i.e. shoddy work, shoddy material, etc.

Many, many non-engineered houses in Haiti stood up years to wind and rain. One earthquake changed all that, and many people died.

The reason we dont hear about many many people being killed during these events in the USA is because of engineers and the codes they have to follow. Out of site, out of mind??
 

GMCGarage

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My shop is 2600 and yours 3500 so you are not quite a bit larger. I can guarantee you that my 2x6 weighs more then your steel and we have snow load requirements here also in the n.w. I can promise you that you will never crack a 4 inch slab with the amount snow you can stack on top of your shop before it collapses. ( shop not slab) a 8inch is way overkill period. 92000 lbs is nothing lol.. we carry more then that on our lowboy going doing the road.... on a much smaller footprint... 8 inch slab for a home shop or even commercial is laughable if you think you need that. Cheers

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Partsguy57 what was your snow load requirement in PSF for the n.w.?
 

ConCretin

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Central Maine
Given the nature of the structure and the design loads involved, the foundation design seems reasonable to me. It would be pretty short sighted to cut corners and have a major failure in the event the worst happens. A couple years ago, a nearby ice arena collapsed due to snow load. Fortunately no-one was inside at the time.

Partsguy57's comments seem to be primarily directed at mcbane's 8" thick slab, which mcbane himself has acknowledged is probably overkill. I agree with both of them. 8" is probably is overkill but it's really not much extra money on a project this size. We've all been guilty of that from time to time.

Back to the OP's original question - which I'm pretty sure he regrets asking at this point - call any ready mix suppliers within reasonable distance, ask for the sales dept. and tell them what you have for a quantity, what you want for a mix and ask for a quote. A 200 cy yard job will get their attention. I'll bet you get get a significantly better price than you would if you just called dispatch.

I place thousands of yards a year with local suppliers. It drives me a little nuts but I have to call in advance for a quote or I get charged the standard rate. Maybe its just the suppliers around here but you won't know til you ask.
 
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ford33

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Feb 26, 2011
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Chicago, IL. USA
It looks like it's going to be a nice garage and designed to fit the OP's needs.

I see posts here about poor workmanship and people here say it should have been done correctly. The OP is an engineer and designed the building to his needs and planned it to be constructed to codes. I wish him well.
 
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joey1320

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NE Ohio
It looks like it's going to be a nice garage and designed to fit the OP's needs.

I see posts here about poor workmanship and people here say it should have been done correctly. The OP is an engineer and designed the building to his needs and planned it to be constructed to codes. I wish him well.

:bowdown:
 

JoeMcGov

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Sep 8, 2018
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827
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Birmingham, Alabama
I haven't seen anywhere where the OP has a specific design mix for his concrete. Footings. Slab. They may be different. Is fly ash available in the local market (partial cement substitute)? I'd want to have that design mix understood before asking for quotes and then asking about a discount (the subject of this thread). Otherwise you may be set up for a bit of a bait-and-switch disguised as a "discount."

Good luck.
 

OldNeons

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Dec 27, 2011
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462
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Midwest
I would be curious to know what the engineers (including OP) and those experienced in large building concrete floors have to say about mix as well. We see a lot of fly ash in our area....... Sounds like a great shop in the works Mcbane
 
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mcbane

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California
Special inspection is very costly so the design assumes 3000 psi concrete for all work. That doesn’t preclude ordering 4000 psi.

For the footings I will order with fly ash and probably chilled water and retardation additive to reduce heat and cracking. For the slab I have a conservative thickness so my primary concern in the mix is surface toughness (think of heavy equipment and tire chains), followed by workability. I won’t finalize a mix till I know the temperature on the date of placement and will likely defer to the concrete slab contractor re the workability issue.


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Nor'Easter

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Nov 30, 2012
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Maine
Make sure to start a thread in the gallery. Those of us not dogging you would certainly enjoy the workmanship of the design you've described.
 

rburke65

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Nov 10, 2007
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Canfield, Ohio
I’m thinking I’d be taking LLWillysfans advice. My dad always told me to ask....all they can say is no. Never hurts to ask.
 

TLCObsession

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Aug 30, 2011
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328
Location
Bellingham, WA
I have worked on projects in the Tahoe / Truckee area and used to live not too far away. The snow load is no joke, and in talking to the structural engineer who did our projects in that area, I don't take what they factor in lightly.

Think about this: 300 lb/sf snow load. 4000 sf of roof potential holding snow with a 21' wall height. 1.2million pounds or 600 tons. Now shake that weight that starts at 21' and rises (likely with a 10/12 or 12/12 pitch and shake it with a mild earthquake....

Get the picture?
 

ConCretin

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Jan 20, 2011
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Central Maine
Supplementary cementitious materials such as fly ash or slag tend to vary regionally depending on supply. Your supplier probably uses one or the other. Personally I wouldn't go out of my way to ask for them in a slab. They can improve the overall performance of the concrete but they can also slow down the set and can be sticky to finish. I'd ask if they generally include it in their regular mix designs and how much. The cost difference is probably minimal but it will likely cost more to use more cement. I'd just talk it over with the supplier. They are not out to trick you.
 
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mcbane

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Jul 23, 2017
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California
Supplementary cementitious materials such as fly ash or slag tend to vary regionally depending on supply..

A very good point since coal burning (I thought that was the primary source) has been significantly reduced. Maybe the source has changed recently?

With the concrete coming from 30+ miles away and my concrete work always happening in hot weather, anything that reduces heat and speed of set is a good thing and thats the main reason I would consider fly ash. There is no price break and, at least for garages, California is not demanding the use of fly ash as a permit condition.
 
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